Partial Certification on Resume

apr911

Hi all,

A topic that has been discussed or at least mentioned here before that I am interested in getting other opinions on...

Im currently unemployed and while I've been working on some personal and professional goals, I have only been passively seeking new employment. In the next week I'll be wrapping up the last of my goals and I plan to go on an active career search.

One of my goals was to get my CCIE Security. For various financial and time of reasons, I scaled back that goal to completing only the written portion of the CCIE with a target to complete the lab 3Q2016 (preferably around mid-year), once gainfully employed and no longer living off savings and thus better able to handle the expense (plus the added potential benefit of an employer reimbursing the expense).

I may be putting the cart before the horse as it were but Im scheduled to take my written exam and I generally feel pretty good about it. I was certainly rusty on a good bit of it having been out of the ASA/VPN game and more Windows, Linux and F5 centric for the last 18 months but a lot of it came back relatively quick and there wasn't a lot of new material for me to cover. Im therefore expecting to pass the written exam without major issue (though reality may still make the question moot).

Personally, I've never much cared for listing "partial" certifications on a resume as I've felt it to be at least a bit misleading, sometimes intentionally so, but I've seen it so often recently that in some regards I feel like I might be doing myself a disservice by not listing it. Granted, I have plenty of other certifications to more than make up for the gap if I dont list it but I feel like it might still help.

If I were to list it, it would be explicitly clear that only the written has been completed as I've interviewed more than one person who listed CCIE and then found out they only had completed the written which is the "intentionally misleading" scenario I discussed and while I generally have disagreed with unintentionally misleading scenario where someone explicitly states its only the written, I've not discredited those who have done so unless I find out they took the exam close to 3 years ago and still havent taken or have a plan to take the lab.

Which brings me to my question...

What is your opinion on putting that you've completed the CCIE written on a resume?
Im interested in hearing from both sides... Those that have listed it and what type of results and questions they've received and those on the otherside of the table on the interview panel and what goes through your mind when you see a candidate listing a "half" of a certification.

blargoe

I personally wouldn't have an issue with someone putting that they are working toward completing CCIE and have finished the written. If we were talking about "working on CCENT" or CCNA or VCP then maybe that would be tacky, but CCIE is special IMO.

joelsfood

CCIE Written is not a certification. Don't put it on your resume. You can mention in your cover letter that your CCIE is in process (assuming you pass), or mention it in the interview, but it doesn't belong on your resume.
There are multiple threads discussing this down in the CCIE section

apr911

joelsfood wrote: »

There are multiple threads discussing this down in the CCIE section

I would defer to the CCIE section threads but Im more interested in the experience of perspective candidates who have listed it as well as hiring managers then I am other CCIE's or people pursuing it...

Having worked with people who wore the CCIE Written as some badge of pride though with no intent of ever taking the lab and as I found, very questionable CCIE level knowledge in the first place, I get why this view exists but there are plenty of fully certified CCIE's for whom the same can be said.

So I already know well the opinion of other technical people, especially those who are pursuing a CCIE themselves and have seen the abuses and liberties people take with listing the written. The technical opinion often echos my own; that is that it's misleading to list it, especially if its not explicitly clear its the written only, its recent and there is a plan to take the lab in relatively short order. Additionally, those candidates who do list it often get the worst grilling but as a candidate who is coming by the CCIE written honestly, Im not overly concerned by a grilling so much as I am with not being afforded the opportunity to be grilled because I did or did not list completing the CCIE written...

In essence, Im not looking for a technical view, Im looking at a business point of view hence why I posted here in the resume section as opposed to adding my 2 cents to an existing post in the CCIE section...

From a business point of view, I may be doing my business (AKA career) a disservice by not listing it as I am going up against candidates who have listed it. The technical side of me would like to think that's not true but the number of resumes I've seen with it listed indicates to me that it is doing something for the people who have it listed.

From a business point of view, listing you have your CCIE Written completed is like a business including the fact they are undergoing SAS70 or PCI or XXX certification auditing as a selling point before they've received the official notification.

It should also be noted this is a long running argument that play out under multiple vendors (i.e. MCSA/MCSE exams, CISSP, CCNP/CCIE's, the list goes on) and is not confined solely to the CCIE. Each of these other vendors also have threads in their respective section detailing the technical reasons behind why it may or may not be inappropriate to list but I've seen very few discussions from the business perspective, the hiring manager perspective and/or the candidate perspective... Usually the threads are some one asking if they can or should list it and a bunch of technical people saying no they shouldnt because "we" as technical people know better that its not really a certification until its fully completed.

OctalDump

As lowly person studying for CCNP, I'm not sure what my opinions worth, but I do know that there is a bit of step between a CCNP and the CCIE, even the CCIE written. If I were hiring - and I've been on that side, though not for anything like your level - it is something I would like to know.

I think that it is definitely something to mention in a cover letter, what the time line is etc, but I am mixed on whether it's good to include it in a resume - not for "technical" reasons that it's not a certification, but because it does seem to draw such strong feelings.

I think your resume is the place to list skills, knowledge, qualifications, relevant experience and accomplishments and the CCIE written would fit on there. I think if you get too uptight, then you risk leaving out relevant detail. It would be like listing only the name of your position at a company and not detailing some exciting project that you worked on. Like saying "Network Engineer" but failing to mention that you oversaw a team of 80 technicians that transitioned a major infrastructure on time and under budget. There's a value there that you aren't mentioning.

But it's one of those things where there isn't going to be a magic bullet answer that keeps everyone happy and gives you your best shot with every potential employer.

I think on balance maybe the way to decide is "what kind of place do I want to work at" - a place that's uptight about 'written' or a place that's over excited to hire someone who might become a CCIE.

apr911

OctalDump wrote: »

I think on balance maybe the way to decide is "what kind of place do I want to work at" - a place that's uptight about 'written' or a place that's over excited to hire someone who might become a CCIE.

I think this statement here is exactly the type of reasoning why it should be listed. My personal opinion is that it make my eye twitch when I see it and I probe the candidate for that reason but if the candidate checks out, Im excited to hire someone striving for their CCIE.

I think I'd rather work for a place that shares that excitement rather than discarding it out of hand because its incomplete.

Admittedly, this wouldnt even have been a question back before I lost my job at the start of the new year but since I've put the time, effort and money into it, going so far as to having delayed my job search so I could put in a full-time+ effort to complete my F5 certifications and my CCIE on my own time and money at great personal financial risk living off savings for 3 months, I feel like its something I should list; especially when considering the number of candidates doing it.

Sheiko37

I can't imagine a situation where listing interest in a certification gives you an edge over another candidate interviewing for a position.

I've talked to a lot of people supposedly studying for certifications, when in reality they've been "studying" for two years, skimming a few pages every fortnight. I wouldn't want to be thought of as that type of person by listing an incomplete certification on a resume.

OctalDump

Sheiko37 wrote: »

I can't imagine a situation where listing interest in a certification gives you an edge over another candidate interviewing for a position.

I've talked to a lot of people supposedly studying for certifications, when in reality they've been "studying" for two years, skimming a few pages every fortnight. I wouldn't want to be thought of as that type of person by listing an incomplete certification on a resume.

Having completed a CCIE written is a different kettle of fish from "I've read half the MCSA book, and I might do one of the exams", it's pretty substantial. It's a bit like CCNP++

The other exception for CCIE is that there does tend to be a lag between completing the written and completing, or even attempting, the lab. I can't remember where I read it, but I think 18 months to 2 years for the CCIE is common, and there might be a gap of 6 months or more between the written and lab. In some respects its more like doing a Master's degree. And talking of degrees, that's one of the other areas where 'in progress' is more acceptable.

jt2929

You either have the certification or you don't. In your case, you do not have it, so don't list it. Maybe mention it in an interview, but I would never list something I don't have on my resume.

blargoe

I don't think anyone here is advocating listing they have a CCIE when they don't. However, being a CCIE candidate who passed the written exam is different than, say being 2 exams into an MCSA cert. If someone listed that they passed the written test on a resume that I am reviewing, I would have absolutely no issue with that. I don't know whether I would do it on MY resume, though.

ArabianKnight

You mean like putting "bought CISSP book" on your resume...lol

bpenn

ArabianKnight wrote: »

You mean like putting "bought CISSP book" on your resume...lol

That made me cringe...

On the topic, I know with the CISSP that if you list that you arent really allowed to put on your resume that you passed the CISSP until you have become endorsed. Does Cisco attempt to audit that? Until Cisco actually creates some sort of policy preventing you from putting that on your resume then it will continue to be simply a subjective issue. Personally, I would leave it off my resume but DEFINITELY write a cover letter explaining my career plans and CCIE endeavors.

networker050184

blargoe wrote: »

I don't think anyone here is advocating listing they have a CCIE when they don't. However, being a CCIE candidate who passed the written exam is different than, say being 2 exams into an MCSA cert. If someone listed that they passed the written test on a resume that I am reviewing, I would have absolutely no issue with that. I don't know whether I would do it on MY resume, though.

My thoughts exactly. If it's a serious certification with multiple exams I don't see a problem with listing that. I know for a fact I was called for an interview because I had the progress of my CCNP on my resume back in the day when it was 4 exams.

apr911

ArabianKnight wrote: »

You mean like putting "bought CISSP book" on your resume...lol

ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! <- I cant stress that enough... Those resumes make me cringe and assuming they survive being binned immediately, they go straight to the bottom of the pile.

I could MAYBE see putting something like "CISSP results pending" (Do you still have to wait for results with the new Computer-Based Testing? I did mine on paper before they had the computer exams and had to wait 6 nerve wracking weeks)... It is still a stretch but it's definitely less of one; you dont have a CISSP but you did take the 6 hour, $500 exam and are awaiting results and in some ways that does count for something more than "Bought CISSP Book" or "studying for."

Pending results though is still a stretch and it still differs from having results but not having completed the certification... I see the CCIE Written being completed as something closer to "CISSP, Endorsement/Audit Pending." You passed the exam and there is still somethings to be done but it is a major hurdle towards that accomplishment. <Note: as has been pointed out, I think ISC2 has policies listing a CISSP on your resume before it's "fully" completed; I dont know anyone that has gotten in trouble for it but that doesnt mean it cant happen nor do I know what the policy says as it's been some time since I passed my CISSP>

So lets be absolutely clear here... Im not advocating putting anything on your resume that does not in some way indicate some sort of accomplishment and buying a book is absolutely not an accomplishment. So let's please stop with the comparison's to "studying for" or "bought book for" as that is definitely not what Im asking about. I'd even suggest that even putting "Written Passed, no lab planned" is slightly beyond the scope of the question (though admittedly I only asked about putting CCIE Written Passed on the resume and made no mention of putting any lab plans on there)

So lets stick to the question of I pass my CCIE written and plan to make an attempt at the lab within the next 6 months. Do you put "CCIE Written Passed, Lab Planned 3Q2016"

blargoe wrote: »

If someone listed that they passed the written test on a resume that I am reviewing, I would have absolutely no issue with that. I don't know whether I would do it on MY resume, though.

And therein lies my problem... I've seen it enough that I dont have serious issue with people doing it as long as there is serious intent there (i.e. no I did the written 3 years ago and never did the lab or other BS) and it's pretty easy to find out the intent of the candidate during an initial screening.

I dont however know whether I want to do it on my resume... If it were merely me applying for another position, I wouldn't list it until its finished but since this was done in my "time-off" between my last date of employment and today, it shows more than just "oh he has his CCIE Written;" it also shows a lot about me personally and my intrinsic values that I havent just been resting on my laurels these past 2-3 months.

apr911

Relevant to the conversation and really the whole reason I asked about listing the CCIE Written is because Im unemployed at the moment and my CCIE written will be completed during that time off...

So rather than listing it under my certification section of my resume, Im considering listing my time unemployed on my resume as a "position" to head off questions about it and within that section, I'd list the things I accomplished which would include my CCIE written.

It'd still pop key word searches and when asked, instead of it being a situation of trying to portray myself as anything more than what I am (which is not a CCIE) its merely me accounting for my off time between jobs which is one of the primary reasons I want to list it in the first place.

Accounting for Unemployment on Resume

renacido

Include it in your cover letter since you have completed a major milestone and are on your way toward the certification. But I don't think things like "CCIE (written)" or "CISSP (awaiting endorsement)" belong on a resume.

I wouldn't crucify an applicant for that but would make me wonder *why* they haven't certified, which isn't the kind of question you want wandering through a hiring manager's mind.

In a cover letter you can easily show that you've passed the written exam for the cert while satisfying any doubts about your employment gap in one sentence.

"I spend the period between X and X preparing for and passing the written exam for CCIE and conducting my job search." Done.

bermovick

When I was studying for the CCIE, after passing the written, I would list "Currently studying: CCIE Lab" on the resume (a recruiter told me to ABSOLUTELY list anything I'm actively studying for). Whether I had passed the written frequently got brought up during the interview/conversation. It felt to me like a good middle-groud.

thomas_

I think the only way it's improper in a technical sense is if you list "CCIE written" below a header section on a resume titled "Certifications" because that implies that the CCIE written test is a certification of its own when in reality you need the written and the lab to be CCIE certified.

If someone had a different section on their resume titled "Certifications in Progress" or something similar and listed that they had passed the CCIE written and were preparing for the lab, then it's hard to say that is improper. Especially, when people use the CCIE certified logo as their image in a forum, which last time I checked goes directly against Cisco's usage guidelines...

pevangel

If you don't know that CCIE Written is not a certification, then you may not be the right person to be interviewing that candidate.

I've seen partial certs on resume before such as CCIE Written or CCNP Route it has never bothered me. You passed the test so why not put it in there. What bothers me are those who are purposely trying to deceive. I've seen people list CCIE when they only have the written, or listing a cert that they plan on taking but haven't taken yet. I don't mind if you say you're studying for something. But if you have a list of certs and dates acquired, and then one of them has a date in the future. They didn't even write the word "expected" next to it. If you quickly scan the resume, it looks like they have the cert.

joelsfood

Your issue will likely arise when your resume hits the desk of someone who holds the CCIE or has attempted it. Most people I know with their CCIE are very adamant about the fact that CCIE written is not a certification and does not belong on resume. Interview, Cover letter, smoke signals, sure. Resume, no. Whether or not that will effect you depends on whether hirin manager is technical or not, and whether they have their CCIE or just want to hire someone who does.

networker050184

Sounds like those people are a bit full of themselves and need to get over it if you ask me. I think everyone is aware it's not a certification, but who made the rule only certifications go on resumes?

OctalDump

renacido wrote: »

I wouldn't crucify an applicant for that but would make me wonder *why* they haven't certified, which isn't the kind of question you want wandering through a hiring manager's mind.

I think if you included the pass date, it'd head off that question of why you haven't certified yet. Several months between written and first lab attempt is normal. But it should be a question for the interview, not a reason to bin the resume - unless of course there is a stack of actual CCIEs applying

I think if you do include "passed CCIE written", then you should expect lots of questions about it, maybe even intense questions.

Part of this is also going to come down to the actual position. If it is listing CCIE as a requirement, and you say "I almost have it", then some potential employers are going to ignore you. If it is listing CCNP as a requirement and maybe CCIE as 'desirable', it's not so much of a stretch. I have even seen a few listings that say things along the lines of "ideal someone wanting to progress to CCIE", where they are either offering to help you get CCIE or to get a 'cheap' CCNP that they can train up.

apr911

OctalDump wrote: »

If it is listing CCIE as a requirement, and you say "I almost have it", then some potential employers are going to ignore you.

True but so too is the reverse and indeed even more so. If it lists CCIE as a requirement and you say "I dont have it" then you are definitely going to get ignored as where an "almost have it" raises the question of "well how soon can you get it" or at least it warrants a second look/consideration in my mind...

It might not be a hard or immediate "on-hire" requirement (how many positions say "must be able to pass/obtain <job requirement> within 6 months" for certifications, security clearances, etc.) and even in the event it is a hard requirement, position requirements can change, be changed and allowances made depending on the circumstances....


If I were looking for a marathon runner and I had to sort my candidates, I'd sort them into 3 piles: 1) those in training that have run a marathon, 2) those in training that have run something other than a marathon (maybe a half marathon) and 3) all others... There is a 4th pile which goes in the bin which are the "not qualified" which is anyone who's applied that is not training at all...

If I absolutely had to have a marathon runner and couldn't find anyone in the first pile, I'd go looking through the 2nd pile before the 3rd.

In the same way, I kind of look at the CCIE similarly... 1) I have my CCIE and it's current, 2) I have my CCIE written and its current with a plan for the lab and 3/4) I dont have my CCIE but probably have the skillset and/or I dont have my CCIE and Im currently "studying" for the written and/or I have my CCIE written and have no plans to ever sit the lab and/or I have no plans for the CCIE ever.

joelsfood

CCIE written isn't really part of a certification though. It is basically an enablement to take the lab, rather than a component of the certification itself. So it's not really a two part certification, like a CCNA. Instead, think of CCIE written like taking your MCATs to get into medical school. All you'er doing by passing is opening the opportunity to attend medical school and maybe in the future be a doctor. But the MCAT in no way indicates that you are a doctor and is in no way part of your MD.

pevangel

No one is saying that a CCIE Written indicates that somebody is a CCIE. If you don't know that a CCIE Written is not a CCIE, then you probably shouldn't be doing those interviews. Just like if you don't know that somebody who just passed their MCAT is not a doctor.

kohr-ah

I have seen on resumes come over people who list CCIE-Written and that to me doesn't bug me but I like it more if you are going to list that list next to it your LAB date.

CCIE-Written (Lab Scheduled May 2016) or something like that. That way I know you are actually working on the CCIE and have an end date you are shooting for in mind.

CCNP list the exams you have done side by side. CCNP-Route, CCNP-Switch that way it shows progress.

Do NOT list training materials purchased as that isn't progress that just tells me you were on Amazon for the day :P.