Received offer...my gut feeling is that they lowballed. Need some advice

RomBUS

Hello dear friends! It has been a while and like the thread title says I need some advice!

Lately, I have been interviewed with this company (2 rounds and interviewed with about 6 people total). Last night they made me an offer...and I can say initially I was not happy with the number BUT the HR employee did make the offer enticing and really got into the company culture which I liked. The amount of experience I could get there would definitely be positive. The salary they offered is 62K with a signing bonus of 5K if I accepted. The position is for a "Windows Systems Administrator" position which is considered their 'Tier 3 IT support position'. Right now at my current employer I am only making around $50K (with overtime included I might add) and I haven't been given a raise since I joined 4+ years ago for a no tiered general IT support position. I do love the people I work with now and I feel like if I had been getting the proper raises (which is the primary reason why I am leaving) I deserve I probably would be around the range this new potential employer is offering me. Now, the new employer has given me some time to think the offer through so I am taking the initiative to come back with a counter offer.

The reason I feel this way is because I really felt I made a really good impression with them when I met the team. I feel like as a professional with 7+ years experience I should be making well above the current offer...I initially said I would like to be in the 70K range when I was being screened way back when. Also, for being considered a "Tier 3" support position I feel like being in the 60K range is below market value and easily attainable for lower level positions in NY. I dont know guys...should I still take the offer that's higher than my current salary even though I feel like I deserve more? Also, I feel like in my career thus far I've always taken the lower offer without thinking it through. This time I feel as though I need to make a stand for myself and finally be happy with everything instead of just settling. One last thing is that I feel like with the offer I still will not be able to afford my own place and that's one of my goals this year (definitely not in NY).

Any more detail you guys need to know just let me know

Thanks in advance guys!

danny069

Is the position in long island or the city? Bottom line is if you feel like you are worth more, then negotiate, tell them this amount is what you are seeking. What have you got to lose? Worst case scenario is they would stick with 62k. Best case is you get what you are asking for. You can plead your case and tell them about your experience, certs, etc.

UncleB

What was the role advertised for? It should give you a good idea if they have budget for paying more.

For example if the job ad was for 55-65k then you are pretty much in the middle, but if you have everything from the job spec and they have already spent 6 peoples time to interview you then you are already a partial investment and you know they want you, so why not make a counter offer, something like:

"Thank you for the offer of 62k with a 5k signing bonus but I believe my skills and experience place me significantly above the starting salary for this position. I am willing to accept a salary of 67k with the 5k signing bonus.
I look forward to hearing from you.
Your sincerely
Rombus"

If they come back with a straight "no" then push for a 5k rise after a year when you have had an opportunity to demonstrate your ability and value add to the team. The worst that is likely to happen is they will say "take it or not". They will be used to negotiations (I do this for any position and have normally managed to get about US$10k more than they offered in some way, shape or form) so won't take it badly so long as you are straight and reasonable about it.

One thing to remember that it does not matter what the market rate is or what you think you are worth - it is the budget the recruiter has to work with that counts. If you do not yet know then ask the HR department what the salary band is so you know where you are. Some companies may have a policy where you can only start at the bottom of the band as a new hire, but rules can be broken if you ask the right way.

Good luck.
Iain

RomBUS

danny069 wrote: »

Is the position in long island or the city? Bottom line is if you feel like you are worth more, then negotiate, tell them this amount is what you are seeking. What have you got to lose? Worst case scenario is they would stick with 62k. Best case is you get what you are asking for. You can plead your case and tell them about your experience, certs, etc.

It's funny you should mention that it actually in Long Island City. I had thought I informed them what I was seeking when they were first interviewing me (I tried to avoid directly but they would not budge and wanted a figure) and all about my experiences and certs....they even mentioned that I was the only candidate that provided decent answers to all of their tech/project management questions.

I will try to message the HR Talent recruiter today about continuing negotiations.

keenon

If going through a recruiter it would be fair to ask what the range they were provided. If your going direct with them they probably won't tell you. How much more do you think your offer should be?
If it's 65k and a 5k bonus tell them. They can either do or do not.
If not what else would you want? More vacation time, paid parking, quarterly/yearly bonus and option to work from home regularly.

Also keep in mind current company is not doing you any favors and losing a pretty decent deal that needs a couple of mods is not a better idea considering.

nice343

Looks like a low-ball to me.

Tell them you are having second thoughts about the position and will need more time to think over the offer because based on your skills set and experience you should be getting "market value". See if that gets them to reconsider the offer.

As long as you have a job, always remember you have the upper hand when it comes to negotiating salary with a potential new employer.

renacido

First, consider the total comp not just the salary. Your signing bonus is part of that, as are bonuses, benefits, vacation, pension, etc.

If considering all of that you feel based on your location, level of experience, and what the market average for total comp is for that area that they are coming in under that, mention that (politely) and ask them if there's no room in the budget for more pay what else can they offer (more vacation, telecommuting, bonuses, etc.

Could also ask for a salary review in 6 months to bring your pay up to $70k if you meet performance goals. That allows you some time to make an impact and prove that you're worth keeping.

6 months is also a considerable enough time for you to be in a job to know if this is a company you can see a long-term future with or if you'd be better off planning to move up into a better job elsewhere. As long as you don't have a pattern in your work history of "job hopping" you can look for another job from there, especially if it's to move up in responsibility, without making potential employers see you as a risky hire.

One more thing you could try is to tell your current employer you have an offer and give them the chance to counter it, since as you say it's mostly a compensation issue.

cyberguypr

I have to ask for my mental statistical analysis: did you disclose what your current salary is? Also you say you mentioned a figure. Is the offer in line with this figure?

636-555-3226

It's always free to ask for more. Ask for 65k with the sign-on bonus. It's not too high to raise eyebrows, and they aren't going to tell you to get lost and drop the job offer. At worst they say no and you say you'd be remiss if you didn't at least ask.

RomBUS

I knew coming here would be the right place! You guys just make the thinking process so much clearer for me and I thank you.

Yes @renacido they are very keen on performance reviews, KPI's and meeting certain criteria during quarterly reviews that can improve your payout. Which is something I never had and made my decision lean towards accepting the position. As far as other comps they offer standard perks such as accruing PTO's (no limit), standard holidays off, 401k (no matching but they are transitioning between providers). I was hoping I could ask for an increase after a certain amount of time as well.

@nice343: I wish I could just blow them off like that. If I had other offers (I do have a phone screen tomorrow) where I could compare I would consider this option.

@keenon: This is a direct negotiation and not a 3rd party recruiter. To be honest I do not think the person I am talking to is in a position to throw in extra perks. Again, it probably does not hurt to ask (never tried that before)

Keep the suggestions coming guys

RomBUS

cyberguypr wrote: »

I have to ask for my mental statistical analysis: did you disclose what your current salary is? Also you say you mentioned a figure. Is the offer in line with this figure?

No they have no idea what I am making now which is why I feel like to my advantage I should be asking higher

They offered 62K w/ 5K signing bonus. I asked for 70 to mid 70's.

renacido

If they've extended a formal offer, you've got nothing to lose by asking if they can pay you more. You told them what you think you're worth and they came in below. Negotiating for more just validates that you believe you're worth it. Nothing wrong with that.

If they stick to their offer, it's a choice between the good opportunity that's there for the taking or a better opportunity in the future that is as of yet unknown.

Do you like your chances of getting a much better job offer in the next 6 months than this one? If so, keep looking. If you think it's better than 50/50 that 6 months from now you're still in your current job making $50k, I'd take the new job (after negotiating for better comp). My two cents.

iBrokeIT

renacido wrote: »

If they've extended a formal offer, you've got nothing to lose by asking if they can pay you more.

Disagree, you have the potential for them to rescind their offer. By all means, negotiate for what you are worth but at least be aware that companies sometimes do rescind offers if they believe you are asking too much or have another candidate that will accept less.

Danielm7

True, but, but he's not asking for a huge difference, and really only asking for closer to what he originally asked for, not an obnoxious/insulting amount. Worth a shot, they might say that's the top of their range, they might give you a small raise, worth trying at least.

NetworkNewb

Right, since he initially asked for 70-75k I doubt they would be surprised and almost expect a counter offer.

Matt2

I'm in a similar situation, or perhaps was (yesterday).If you feel the total compensation package isn't enough, then stick to your needs as long as you don't mind not getting the job. And I do say needs... If you can learn and grow and be ok with a lower pay, get more experience, do it.

As for me, I had phone and in person interviews go great, and was given a job offer 1.5 weeks ahead of time. The offer given to me included the comment of "once we agree on the details", a start date would be determined. Well unless I get a new email saying something different it turns out they didn't have any room to make any changes beyond adding signing bonus.

I would have enjoyed the job, but I'm not going to put myself in a situation where I know I'd regret the salary immediately due to the cost of living in the area.

Unless something unexpected happens today/tomorrow, I'm back to looking!

renacido

iBrokeIT wrote: »

Disagree, you have the potential for them to rescind their offer. By all means, negotiate for what you are worth but at least be aware that companies sometimes do rescind offers if they believe you are asking too much or have another candidate that will accept less.

It's stupid for a company to rescind an offer to a qualified hire because they countered with a salary figure within the range they initially gave as desired comp. Really really stupid. If his requested salary was so far above their budget it's much more cost effective and time saving to eliminate him as a candidate right then. By the time they extend the offer they've wasted time and money interviewing and checking references. All of which explains why I've never heard of an offer rescinded because the candidate wanted to negotiate.

Plus, they don't have a clue if the "runner up" for the position will accept the same offer or will also attempt to negotiate.

HR pros also know the cost of a negligent hire. Giving the job to someone less qualified but cheaper is increasing the risk of hiring someone then having to fire them and rehire the position later. Not to mention the potential damage a negligent hire could do to their operations and the impact to the business.

cyberguypr

Yet HR goons play all kinds of stupid games that are beyond my level of comprehension. If I was in the OP's shoes I would ask myself "is it worth losing the position for X thousand of dollars?" I gave them a range, so I expect the offer to be at the bottom of my range. I would ask for more.

GSXR750K2

My father used this trick to get in at a place many years back...

A place offered him a job with less than what he was asking, as is most often the case. He told them that he was confident enough in his abilities and that he could bring quite a bit to the table that he would accept their offer with the written condition that at six months in they would either terminate him or give him a raise to what he was asking. He worked there for 10 years. They had nothing to lose in the beginning and got him at a discount, but by the time six months came around he had given them something to lose and they agreed he was worth what he had requested in the beginning. It definitely caught their HR off guard.

If you dare to approach them with a similar compromise, it would at least show them you can see beyond the here and now and instead of one side not getting what they want from the start, both sides can win in the end.

TechGromit

RomBUS wrote: »

No they have no idea what I am making now which is why I feel like to my advantage I should be asking higher

In that case I would counter with 72k, the worse thing that would happen would be they say no they can't improve there offer. It's very unlikely they were rescind the offer. If they say they can't go any higher and you still want the job, tell them you want a 10k signing bonus.

NetworkNewb

GSXR750K2 wrote: »

My father used this trick to get in at a place many years back...

A place offered him a job with less than what he was asking, as is most often the case. He told them that he was confident enough in his abilities and that he could bring quite a bit to the table that he would accept their offer with the written condition that at six months in they would either terminate him or give him a raise to what he was asking. He worked there for 10 years. They had nothing to lose in the beginning and got him at a discount, but by the time six months came around he had given them something to lose and they agreed he was worth what he had requested in the beginning. It definitely caught their HR off guard.

lol, I kind of like it this. It makes it sound like a really good deal for the company initially, but in reality, if they decided you were only worth the beginning amount. They would actually be losing someone who has been trained in on their job for 6 months. Even if the person was just OK at the job, I would highly doubt the company would fire the person and want to go through the process of trying to find someone else and then train them in on the job again. They would probably just give the raise over wasting a bunch of time and resources on getting another person in.

I think a smart HR person would realize that though...

Priston

I'd ask for 70-72K with no signing bonus. That signing bonus is basically 67K the first year and 62K the 2nd year if your manager doesn't know how to fight for his employees.

sj4088

Easy call here. You ARE being low balled. A Tier 3 Windows Systems Admin 62k?? Obviously we don't know exactly what you will be doing or your skill set but just from the title alone that job should be offering at least 20K more per year. The fact that you said in the beginning that you wanted 70k+ and they still brought you in mean they will pay that as well.

Also the fact they offered you a 5k signing bonus and is given you time to think it over further confirm they are low balling you. I would give them a final counter offer of 70k. If they could match I'd walk. If you have the skills to land a tier 3 windows system admin job you can easily find a job paying 80k. I get called for those type of jobs all day every day.

Another thing. I don't like companies that try to pay below market rate for employees. That says a lot about them. I try to avoid them at all cost. 62k is the salary usually given to a Tier 1 system admin. Every tier 3 system admin I've ever known was around 100k mark. Maybe the company have the job title wrong.

Although I must say you maybe a special case. You say you have been doing general IT support for the past four years making about 50k. Is this help desk, desktop support? Usually companies don't target people like that to be tier 3 systems administrators. Usually they target people who have been system admins for the past 5 to 10 years. Usually those folks are already making over 70K.

From your salary, background and the pay being offered. It almost feel like this is a windows system admin I. But that's not what the title say. Will you have another group of system admin. escalating issues they can't solve to you? Are you the last line of system admin? Are is there a group of system admins you can escalate to?

We don't know your total time in IT nor do we know what your past job titles have looked like.

pevangel

There's always a chance that you'll lose the offer if you countered. If you feel that you are worth more then take the chance and counter. You have a job right now so it's not too bad of a loss if they do rescind the offer.

Nightflier101BL

Go with your gut feelings. In my experience my gut never steered me in the wrong direction. Figure out what you're worth/want and stick to it. If you didn't have a job currently, it would be a different thing.

For example, recently I had two interviews with a local Cisco Partner MSP. I made the terrible mistake of disclosing my current salary in the second interview and they made me an offer on the spot of 2K over my current salary. I was looking for a min of 15% more as this job would include a lot of travel and time away from home, in hotels. I have a few years in and felt comfortable with my abilities. I told them I'd like to think it over for a week and discuss it with my wife. The next day, I countered and they immediately told me no way. They wouldn't budge on pay, more PTO, nothing. They kept throwing around "oh, you'll work with CCIE's and learn from CCIE's." Then they said I had a max of 3 days to give them an answer. That immediately put me off but I kept thinking about the experience and where it could take me down the road. The other thing that I was concerned about was that there were not many technical questions during the interview. Started making me thing the job was more a "gopher" type thing.

I ended up declining at the last possible moment. It was one of the hardest decisions I've made, career-wise. I even had second thoughts and contacted them again after I declined to see if it was still available and they let me have it on the phone. Felt like a fool.

Basically, figure out what you're worth and stick to it. Go with your gut - if the place feels good, benefits are good, good atmosphere, maybe it's worth taking a small hit on what you really wanted. It really depends on how bad you need/want the job. Sometimes, you'll just feel it, if it's a right or wrong move regardless of the specifics.

RomBUS

sj4088 wrote: »

Easy call here. You ARE being low balled. A Tier 3 Windows Systems Admin 62k?? Obviously we don't know exactly what you will be doing or your skill set but just from the title alone that job should be offering at least 20K more per year. The fact that you said in the beginning that you wanted 70k+ and they still brought you in mean they will pay that as well.

Also the fact they offered you a 5k signing bonus and is given you time to think it over further confirm they are low balling you. I would give them a final counter offer of 70k. If they could match I'd walk. If you have the skills to land a tier 3 windows system admin job you can easily find a job paying 80k. I get called for those type of jobs all day every day.

Another thing. I don't like companies that try to pay below market rate for employees. That says a lot about them. I try to avoid them at all cost. 62k is the salary usually given to a Tier 1 system admin. Every tier 3 system admin I've ever known was around 100k mark. Maybe the company have the job title wrong.

Although I must say you maybe a special case. You say you have been doing general IT support for the past four years making about 50k. Is this help desk, desktop support? Usually companies don't target people like that to be tier 3 systems administrators. Usually they target people who have been system admins for the past 5 to 10 years. Usually those folks are already making over 70K.

From your salary, background and the pay being offered. It almost feel like this is a windows system admin I. But that's not what the title say. Will you have another group of system admin. escalating issues they can't solve to you? Are you the last line of system admin? Are is there a group of system admins you can escalate to?

We don't know your total time in IT nor do we know what your past job titles have looked like.

@sj4088: When I went to the interview they said that position I would be applying for would be considered tier 3 because we would be considered the escalation point for the desktop support (tier 2) and help desk (tier 1). My thoughts when I was being interviewed (especially with the questions and the amount of time spent interviewing there) that I would easily net past 60K for a tier 3 position. I aimed for the $70k range thinking they would offer within that range easily. They also said I would be strictly be on the infrastructure side of things and not answering help desk calls (unless it's an escalated problem)

My current position is non-tiered which is why I called it "general" support. For instance, one day I could be doing help desk/desktop/end user support all day (depends on how many people call in), another day is working on a project for infrastructure changes, another day would be working on the servers (break/fix specific issues, research, and/or maintenance). Basically I would be tasked by my team leader at times as well. We would handle everything Windows and administrate (not engineer level) our Cisco UCM system as well.

I spoke to the HR Talent acquisition person (really nice lady) and she informed me that she would talk to the hiring manager about more compensation and hear back from him/her this afternoon. I hope things go well!

kiki162

I second what @Nightflier101BL said. If you feel that you are worth 70-75K then go back to the recruiter and tell them that. Having a 12K increase in salary is a nice jump, but unless you were interviewing for a different spot, and/or had additional certs (MCSE 2012 or CCNA) then I would feel that 70-75 is worth it. Between my last 2 jobs, I had a 12K increase in part to getting my CISSP.

I'd come back with a counter of $67K with a $5K signing bonus. I think that would be fair in your position because you are meeting them half way. Have you asked them about education benefits? Like would they pay for schooling, certifications, or something along those lines? That would be a big factor to me if I was looking for another job.

Before you make your decision, check out your PM's as I sent you a few good links to check out.

RomBUS

Well I received a reply from the same HR person and didn't really get the response I was looking for. Instead of coming back to me and negotiating further she instead just sent me the offer letter at the original salary with the rest of the paper work for signing. I took it that she was unable to squeeze more out of the deal. At this point guys I am leaning towards a no....I really liked the situation its just I do not want to feel like they took advantage by giving me a lower salary. It is only my first offer of the year and I could possibly have another interviews lined up (did a phone interview on Friday) and the interviewer had asked me for a figure (would not let me avoid this question) and I told him what it was (70k range...I made sure I said that) he actually said that is something that is in the range of what they are looking for. He also mentioned keeping my availability open for the next week for in-person interviews. So good thing I waited out this offer...hopefully I make a splash with the next one and see where it get me. I will update once I get further down the process.

danny069

Good luck RomBus, good for you for sticking to your guns. I'm sure you will get the salary you want.