CCNA (and beyond) Home Lab Questions

WeatherTechWeatherTech Posts: 16Member ■□□□□□□□□□
Hello everyone! I am new to the forum but have read TE without a registered account for some time. I am currently working on studying for the CCNA (and have plans to move onto subsequent certs as well). I realize that a lot of the CCNA can (and many people do) be completed with things like Packet Tracer and GNS3. However, I do think I will take the dive and build a home lab so I have that hands on experience that I may lack otherwise.

I realize there are other threads on this topic but wanted to make one of my own so as to not hijack another persons thread with my own (potentially repetitive questions).

I am not entirely sure of my budget at this time but I think I will mold it as I research. I am already 99% sure that I will NOT be going with a kit from a site like certificationkits. Instead, I think the best approach after reading threads here and on other forums is to build my own piece by piece.

I think I'm starting to get a good handle on what equipment I will need and the ins and outs of different variants. However, I do need some guidance. I have seem some people say it's good to start with 3 routers and 3 switches (which is what I'm looking at right now). But I have seen those numbers varied a bit depending on who you ask.

My noob self is currently looking at grabbing three 2811 routers and perhaps three 3560 switches. But it does seem as though a lot of people elect to mix and match rather than getting three of the same equipment. Is this more for a cost reason or because there is a benefit to having a variety of routers/switches?

Also am having a hard time finding a hard answer on whether or not I will need WICs and if so how many?

Pardon my perhaps stupid questions as I am very new to the Cisco area! I'd ideally like a lab that will have some durability into CCNP or CCNA: Security etc. Also, I do think at some point I may go down the Collaboration route (voice etc).

So all in all - looking to put together a lab that won't require me to re-invent the wheel for future certs. So I am fine if it is "over done" for CCNA. I just do not want to have to repeatedly upgrade things as I go. I'd rather put more money in up front to have a setup that will have staying power.

Lots of model numbers to sort through and techexams seems like a great place to ask!

Also - is there a list of not only routers/switches that a person might need but a complete list of WICs, cables, etc that a person wold need to do a home lab? I've seen lots of threads and websites giving opinions on the switches and routers but not many that give a COMPREHENSIVE list of everything a person would need down to the rack as well.

Comments

  • joemysteriojoemysterio Posts: 152Member
    For CCNA, I used Packet Tracer and a simulator from Pearson as well as Udemy and I did fine. But I regret not going the home lab route because now I have no idea how to go about this for CCNP. I don't get where the model numbers lie in regards to how recent they are and what level they are at, like entry tier or high tier models. Then realizing that the new CCNP exams work off of IOS 15, and not knowing which older model will accept the newer IOS has been a bummer.

    I hope you don't mind, but I'll piggy back off of your thread here to figure out what equipment I'll need as well. I'll check in and contribute when I can.
    Current goals: CCNA/CCNP
  • WeatherTechWeatherTech Posts: 16Member ■□□□□□□□□□
    Don't mind at all! I see you have a fair number of certs - congrats! I considered going for my Net+ but I have a decent understanding of Networking already and from what I understand CompTIA Net+ is essentially a lot of theory. I wanted to go a bit more hands-on. Plus, I think CCNA will carry a bit more prestige anyway.

    From what I've read on other threads/websites - the routers are numbered by 100s and the switches go by 10s. So the 19xx routers are more current than the 28xx routers because of that hundreds place. Still, it seems the consensus is that for CCNA and even well into CCNP the 28xx are fine. I'm actually thinking now of going with 2821 router models rather than 2811s. A few posts I read mentioned that the 2821s are better if you go the voice route.

    It gets confusing to me when you start to add in all of the extra model info. Many people mention only the 4 digit model number and not the other part of the model number. Then, you get into exact specs which can vary as well.

    I'm excited and enthusiastic but a bit taken aback by how much information there is.
  • WeatherTechWeatherTech Posts: 16Member ■□□□□□□□□□
    So from what I've read/gathered so far here's what my current understanding is.

    Routers:
    1841, 2811, 2821 are all good picks.

    Switches:
    2960, 3560, 3570 are good choices (get one that is PoE if you want to do voice at some point).

    Obviously a rack to mount everything.

    How it will come down to exact models within each of those. I will also have to determine the need for any WICs I guess.

    I will keep updating this reply if I find more info.
  • clarsonclarson Posts: 897Member ■■■■□□□□□□
    Routers:
    1841, 2811, 2821 are all good picks.
    also the 2851. Shipping for 3x 2811 is about the same as for 2x 2821. So, you can save shipping with 2811. But, if you can buy local, the 2821 are usually less because they cost more to ship. But, it doesn't cost any more gas money if your just driving over.
    You do need to research the switches a lot more.
    2960 can run either the lanlite ios or the lanbase ios. But, they can only run one. a lanlite model can not be upgraded to lanbase. And, a lanbase model can not be down graded to lanlite. So what you get is the only kind of ios (lanlite or lanbase) that your going to be able to run on the model. The lanbase ios has more features. So, that is what you'd like to get. So, only purchase a model of the 2960 that runs the lanbase ios.
    some 3560 can run version 15 of the ios and some can not. in general the "ts" models can and the "ps" models cant.
    no versions of the 3750 can run version 15 of the ios.
    The 3560V2, 3560G, 3750V2, and 3750G models can run version 15 of the ios.
    and for poe, there is two versions of poe. There is the cisco version that was used prior to the ieee standard that is now used. And, the two version aren't interchangeable. What works on one won't work on the other. You can always buy a cheap 3550 poe switch to run the cisco version. or you are going to need something like a 3560V2/3750V2 poe swithch that supports both poe standards.
  • WeatherTechWeatherTech Posts: 16Member ■□□□□□□□□□
    clarson wrote: »
    Routers:
    1841, 2811, 2821 are all good picks.
    also the 2851. Shipping for 3x 2811 is about the same as for 2x 2821. So, you can save shipping with 2811. But, if you can buy local, the 2821 are usually less because they cost more to ship. But, it doesn't cost any more gas money if your just driving over.
    You do need to research the switches a lot more.
    2960 can run either the lanlite ios or the lanbase ios. But, they can only run one. a lanlite model can not be upgraded to lanbase. And, a lanbase model can not be down graded to lanlite. So what you get is the only kind of ios (lanlite or lanbase) that your going to be able to run on the model. The lanbase ios has more features. So, that is what you'd like to get. So, only purchase a model of the 2960 that runs the lanbase ios.
    some 3560 can run version 15 of the ios and some can not. in general the "ts" models can and the "ps" models cant.
    no versions of the 3750 can run version 15 of the ios.
    The 3560V2, 3560G, 3750V2, and 3750G models can run version 15 of the ios.
    and for poe, there is two versions of poe. There is the cisco version that was used prior to the ieee standard that is now used. And, the two version aren't interchangeable. What works on one won't work on the other. You can always buy a cheap 3550 poe switch to run the cisco version. or you are going to need something like a 3560V2/3750V2 poe swithch that supports both poe standards.

    Thank you so much for the reply! Super helpful in terms of knowing the ins and outs of different switches. I am running down prices and such on eBay as well as a few other sites. I'm pretty certain I will be going with 2811s for the routers. I do think at some point down the line I will be doing work with voice but not yet. SO for now I'll probably solidify plans for 3x 2811 routers.

    The switches I'm looking at more with more focus now.
  • clarsonclarson Posts: 897Member ■■■■□□□□□□
    Yes, you will need wics, specifically wics with serial ports. And, being some wics support 2x ports on a card, I'll just talk about how many serial ports are needed and not how many wics.
    dsu-t1 wics aren't supported on 2800 routers. You will need the dsu-t1 v2 version of the wic.
    There many wics that support serial ports with different types of connectors. So, your going to need a serial back-to-back cable to connect the ports together with the proper connections at each end. So, you need to check that you can get the wics and the proper cables for connecting them together. I use the dsu-t1 v2 wics. They use a rj48 connector which is almost identical to a rj45 connector. So, get some rj45 connectors and a crimper and make/repair your cables for cheap.
    for the ccna you need 4 serial ports. 2x routers with 1x serial ports and 1x router with 2x serial ports. That is a minimum with more always nice to play around with when needed. For the ccnp your going to need 10 serial ports. 3x routes with 2x ports and 1x router with 4x ports. again that is a minimum.
    And, for voice your going to need mft wics that will support both serial and voice.
    And, for voice your going to want routers with 512mb of ram

    You can always send me a private message and we can discuss putting together a lab for you.
  • joemysteriojoemysterio Posts: 152Member
    clarson, can I message you as well? For now, how does this look for a router? Cisco 2811 V02 Router w 1x WIC 1DSU T1 V2 Wan Card | eBay
    Current goals: CCNA/CCNP
  • WeatherTechWeatherTech Posts: 16Member ■□□□□□□□□□
    That would be incredibly helpful. I don't have 10 posts yet so I can't privately message you but I just sent a message to the admins to see if I can have that restriction lifted early.

    It certainly seems like having a resource like you will make this process significantly smoother. My confidence level currently in picking equipment is very low.
  • clarsonclarson Posts: 897Member ■■■■□□□□□□
    I'm fine with getting messages.
    You'd prefer to get 2x wics instead of the one. But, just how usable the router will be is in the details. Details that weren't mentioned. How much memory does it have and what is the version of the ios it is running. I'd ask what those are before buying it. right now you have to assume that you'd need to get a larger cf card and install a better ios.
    But, it does have a cf ejector that isn't broken and comes with rack mount brackets.
    Yes, it looks good, but find out about the details.
  • WeatherTechWeatherTech Posts: 16Member ■□□□□□□□□□
    Update:

    In terms of routers and switches I am thinking about picking up the following from eBay -

    3 x CISCO2811 Router IOS 15.1(3)T4, CME 8.5, 512D/256F Dram Flas

    2 x WS-C2960-24TT-L (checked to make sure it has lan base)

    1 x CISCO WS-C3560G-24TS-S

    Also

    4 x Cisco WIC-1DSU-T1 V2

    Does that appear to be a setup that would be compatible and fine? I am still tweaking things. I've found all of the above on eBay from various sellers. Obviously I'll also have to grab cabling and a rack to mount all of this. I may head over to Amazon (my favorite haha) for that stuff.
  • clarsonclarson Posts: 897Member ■■■■□□□□□□
    Yes, those will be good.
    instead of the 3560G, you could save some dollars with a 3560V2 or a 3560-24TS.
    And, hopefully, the switches have ios version 15 on them.
    How much is this going to cost you? I might be able to give you a better price.
  • WeatherTechWeatherTech Posts: 16Member ■□□□□□□□□□
    It looks like all of the switches I listed are IOS 15.1. I am taking a look at the 3560V2 on eBay now.

    Do you think my desire to get cables all new from Amazon is valid? The last thing I want is worn cables - the units themselves are already used/refurbished - the least I can do is make sure the cabling is all new!

    Is there a hard rule to the number and types of cables I should get or should I just ensure I have a good scattering of different types (ex: USB to serial, crossovers, etc etc etc).

    Also, do you think there's any super significant benefit to going with the 2821 for my 3 routers? I assume they are 1) louder and of course 2) will take up 2U on a rack instead of just one slot. I think I'll be fine with the 2811s but I could easily be convinced upwards to the 2821.

    I am basically going off of a sellers eBay feedback and sale frequency in determining whether they seem reputable. I'm going to go ahead and assume that if a seller has 99.9% positive feedback and makes a fair number of sales that I will be getting working equipment.

    Thanks again, clarson!!!!
  • clarsonclarson Posts: 897Member ■■■■□□□□□□
    new cables or not? Doesn't really matter. You just don't want a cable that has nicked insulation or loose connectors. But, on ebay you can get some 5 pack of cables for like $10. That is a pretty good price. What might be more important is how many colors you have. If everything is the same color, you have trace the cables back when you have a possible cable problem. If you have more then one color, you can eliminate the other colored cables right away.
    number of cables - two 5 packs should be enough to start with.
    types of cables - routers to switches are straight through. your switches do auto-midx. so switch to switch can also be straight through.
    you should be getting some console cables with the equipment. if your computer doesn't have serial ports, you'll probably need a couple of usb to serial adapters. you'll need serial crossover cables like this: Cisco CCNA CCNP Lab Kit Voice 1ft CAT5 Serial Crossover Cable 1' WIC 1DSU T1 | eBay or buy a crimper and make your own (not that hard to do).
    The 2821 has gigabit ethernet ports and more slots to put more modules into. in a lab, speed isn't a consideration. And, your not going to be putting anything into the extra slots to study for the ccna or ccnp. But, they make about the same amount of noise.

    an extra thing you might consider is using one of the routers as a terminal server by putting a nm-16a or nm-32a into the nm slot. Not necessary, but with the amount of equipment you have, it is nice to have.

    Those are good items. I'd make sure the switches have rack mounts. it looks like they don't come with them.
    And, I could save you $100 over their prices.
  • WeatherTechWeatherTech Posts: 16Member ■□□□□□□□□□
    That is an excellent point about the color of the cables. I have a giant bin of cables that I am too lazy to sort though so far. I know I have a lottt of Cat 5e cables of varying colors. I also have a good number of Cat 6 but they are all black.

    Given your comments on the 2821 I think I'll go ahead and stick with the 2811s for the routers since they take up only one space on the rack.

    I do like your suggestion of making one of the routers a terminal server.

    With your assistance I'm starting to feel a lot more comfortable with moving forward. It's been a daunting day but I think taking it slow and steady has been helpful.

    Just a purchasing related question - do you tend to just go with whoever has the product you are looking for on eBay or do you tend to stick with sellers that seem to be high volume sellers. In other words, are all the listing fair game for you when looking for products or do you have "favorites" to deal with? I guess my main concern is getting a lemon or a mis-advertised product but I suppose that is what return policies etc are for.
  • WeatherTechWeatherTech Posts: 16Member ■□□□□□□□□□
    I totally understand the point in getting things piece by piece on eBay vs getting a kit from a website like CertificationKits - but I think the one thing that would have drawn me towards the kit side of things would be everything coming from a single source in the event of a return needed plus, more standardized listing of specs. eBay always (with non-networking related things) seems like a place where the potential for a misunderstanding or mislabel is high.

    And good point on the rack mounts. It doesn't sound like they are included so I suppose I'd have to pick some up or find another product/seller that has it included.
  • clarsonclarson Posts: 897Member ■■■■□□□□□□
    I did work for a cisco reseller and do know other resellers. So, I just call them up to see if they have what I need. And, then I go back into their warehouse and pick the units I want to buy off the shelf.
    In general, Cisco's products are very well made. And, you very unlikely to get a lemon that has been in use the last 10 years. What your more likely to get is a unit that has loud fans. And, there really isn't anyway to tell if that is the case without listening to it. Something to look for are that the switches have mode buttons and the routers have a compact flash ejector. routers and switches are quite solid and in metal cases. and pretty much the ones with scratches and stickers sell for less than the pretty ones. But, the ios works the same on one with scratches as one without scratches.
    The cisco items in those plastic cases like the asa5505 or wireless controllers. I'd never buy one that hasn't been tested. I've seen alot that just don't power on. So, if it is untested, you might be paying to get a brick shipped to you.
    What i look for is a good description. the description is the same as the picture. The wording and spelling is all correct. And, like you do, make sure they have happy customers and more than just one of them.
  • WeatherTechWeatherTech Posts: 16Member ■□□□□□□□□□
    clarson wrote: »
    What i look for is a good description. the description is the same as the picture. The wording and spelling is all correct. And, like you do, make sure they have happy customers and more than just one of them.

    Perfect. That is what I was hoping to hear. It sounds like it's mostly being careful and not being stupid (as should be the case for any online transaction). If you have a better price I'd definitely be interested. Right now I'm sort of putting together a final "shopping list" if you will just for my own sake.

    What's your take on making your own ethernet cables? I had a friend who refused to buy manufactured cables and instead just bought bulk cat 5e and did it all himself. I personally probably would just take the easy way. ;)

    I do plan on browsing around on ebay a bit more before I make a final bite on all the routers/switches themselves. But as long as you don't see any compatibility problems with the model numbers - I'll get down to the verifying product descriptions part.

    I can't thank you enough. I would love to send you a PM but unfortunately the system still doesn't recognize me even after 10 posts. Maybe they changed the post #!
  • clarsonclarson Posts: 897Member ■■■■□□□□□□
    Why they usually don't mention rack mount brackets is because they don't have enough for all the units that they have. But, they usually have a few. Maybe they will just include them if you ask.
  • clarsonclarson Posts: 897Member ■■■■□□□□□□
    The only reason I make my own cables is I can make them to the length that I want. You might have at least 10 cables connected to your lab. If they are 6' patch cables, that is 60' of cable you need to dig though when finding the other end of a cable. But, if the cables are only 2' long, there is only like 20' of cable to look through and that is much easier.

    I think they make you wait 3 days after becoming a member to send pms.
  • OctalDumpOctalDump Posts: 1,722Member
    Rather than tell you what to get, I'd thought I'd share what I have.

    I'm currently studying CCNP R+S.

    I have for SWITCH:

    4x WS-C3560-24TS ios15.0(2) IP Services feature set
    12x 50cm Cat-6
    4x 3m Cat-6

    This is sufficient for the topologies in SWITCH v6.1 and v7 lab manuals.

    I am using all C3560s because they were cheap. Cheaper than the 2960, in fact. This model does not officially support ios15, but runs the same image as the C3560v2. The 3560 supports Multilayer switching, and routing which is important for CCNP but doesn't matter for CCNA.

    I am using Cat-6, because I had them lying around. Cat-5 or Cat-5e would also work. As a rule I try to avoid having Cat-5 lying around because then I have to check the cables before I use them in situations where Cat-6 would matter. If I only have Cat-6, it just makes it easier.

    I have for ROUTE:

    1x 1841 384ram/256flash ios 15.1, advanced IP services feature set, WIC-2T
    1x 2821 512ram/256flash ios 15.1, advanced IP services feature set, WIC-2T
    1x 2821 512ram/256flash ios 15.1, advanced IP services feature set, WIC-2T, ASYNC 16A
    1x 2851 1GB ram/256 flash IOS 15.1, advanced IP services feature set, WIC-2T, NME-XD-24ES-1S-P
    8x smart serial cables
    4x 3m Cat-6
    1x console cable
    1x octocable for ASYNC 16A

    These are all gen 1 ISRs because they are much cheaper than the preferred gen 2. But they don't have the full features required by the current ROUTE exam.

    I have a mix because that was what was available at a good price when I bought them.

    I had to buy the WIC-2T's and serial cables separately. I have more serial cables than needed. You could get different serial WICs or NMs, but the WIC-2T's were the cheapest option for me. The other consideration if using different serial interfaces is that you need them on both ends, and the right cables. It is generally simpler to use the same kind of interfaces on all routers.

    They need minimum 128MB flash for the advanced IP services feature set, which is necessary to run an image with a feature set that provides IPv6. 256MB Compact Flash is under $10 each. Be warned that size above 256MB can cause issues. They take 'standard' RAM (PC-133 SODIMM or DDR ECC UDIMM), which I had some lying around to upgrade the 2851 and 1841.

    I bought the ASYNC 16A with its octocable separately. It allows me to use one router as a terminal server to connect to all the other routers and switches console ports. It means I don't have to plug/unplug/replug console cables.

    The last bit is the NME-XD-24ES-1S-P, which is basically a 3750 with 24 fast POE and 2 gigabit interfaces, in a module that plugs into the 2851. The module has 32MB flash, so will run IOS 15. One of the gigabit interfaces is "internal" and connects to an "internal" port on the router. So in effect it's like having a 2851 attached via a gigabit port to a 3750. I have this for situations where I might need POE, since none of the 3560's I have do POE.

    I don't have any of this gear racked, I just have them stacked on a couple of open shelves. All the switches and routers are connected to an IP PDU which allows me to turn on/off the equipment as needed. I also run a TFTP server for uploading images, and can telnet/ssh as needed.

    I also have two PVDM2s and four VPN/SSL AIMs and a 3G HWIC, an 871 and a 3500XL but none of these are in use. The PVDM2's are for Voice, and the VPN/SSL AIMs might be useful for Security (since VPN is part of Security track).

    If you do other tracks, then you might need different feature set on your equipment. The Collaboration track can get quite expensive with the extra things you would need for a full physical lab - E1t1 vwic, fxs fxo cards, aim modules, phones, cables.

    The other consideration for the ISRs in particular is that they don't support much of the current tech - like ios 15.4 or the newer CUCM/CME or Wireless Controller code. This is a growing problem as the certifications move on with newer and newer tech. Possibly by the time you come to do other study, this gear will be too old. But on the upside, the gear you will need will be cheaper.
    2017 Goals - Something Cisco, Something Linux, Agile PM
  • joemysteriojoemysterio Posts: 152Member
    Wow, I'm saving/bookmarking this thread. Great info!! Thank you!
    Current goals: CCNA/CCNP
  • WeatherTechWeatherTech Posts: 16Member ■□□□□□□□□□
    OctalDump, thank you for the extremely detailed post!!! Great information that I am just getting around to reading now.

    clarson - I am just getting going for the morning and I'll probably post a finalized (hopefully) list of equipment by this afternoon.

    I'm very glad I made an account here - it's paying dividends already.
  • WeatherTechWeatherTech Posts: 16Member ■□□□□□□□□□
    Semi-final Shopping List

    Routers:

    Three of these - Cisco 2811 Router iOS 15 1 3 T4 CME 8 5 512D 256F CCNA CCNP CCVP CCIE Qty AV 882658072741 | eBay

    That listing does say the rack ears are included.

    Switches:

    2 of these - Cisco 2960 24 WS C2960 24TT L 24 Ethernet 10 100 Port Catalyst Switch Latest iOS 0882658044113 | eBay
    EDIT: Changing this to a 3560 per a suggestion from clarson

    That model is showing as having c2960-lanbasek9-mz.150-2.SE8.bin on it so that looks good to my eyes.

    1 of these - Cisco WS C3560 24TS s 24 Port Layer 3 Ethernet Switch w 3560 24TS E iOS 15 0TAR 0746320980553 | eBay

    Which is showing as having a rack mount kit included and c3560-ipservicesk9-tar.150-2.SE8.tar on it. So to my eye that looks solid.

    Others:

    I will pick up several of the DSU-T1 V2 WIC modules. I am also planning to grab some bulk ethernet cable so I can make my own cabling (it will get me back into the swing of doing that).

    The sellers I'm looking at are all rated well so I am crossing my fingers I do not have to deal with any painful returns or anything.

    Rack mount and some other smaller things I plan to get on Amazon as originally stated. I'll probably place a bunch of orders later this afternoon. So if anybody sees problems or has suggestions before I pull the trigger feel free to chime in :)

    I really, really appreciate all the help and I"m glad that joemysterio is also gaining benefit from this thread.

    Per clarson's suggestion as well I'll look into grabbing an NM-16A to do terminal server with one of the 3 routers I'm getting.

    Crossing my fingers for a smooth process!
  • joemysteriojoemysterio Posts: 152Member
    Yeah, I'm incredibly appreciative for all of this.

    I may have some equipment to use for free from work, stuff that is going to ewaste or resold and I was given permission to see if I could salvage anything. I quickly went through and found:

    (2) 2960-48TT-L
    (1) 2960-24TT-L
    (1) 3560X-24P-L
    (1) 3750E-48PD-S
    (2) 3560G
    (1) 2851 w/ 64mb CF

    I haven't powered them up yet to see what IOS they have or if they're even functional but I will check after work.
    Current goals: CCNA/CCNP
  • WeatherTechWeatherTech Posts: 16Member ■□□□□□□□□□
    Given the info that clarson has given me and reading around online it sounds like you have some nice equipment there pending more information or if they are even functional. It looks like I may be getting some gear from clarson which will be a relief that I won't have to navigate the eBay waters.
  • WeatherTechWeatherTech Posts: 16Member ■□□□□□□□□□
    Wanted to thank everyone once again for all the help!

    My rack showed up today so that is put together and ready. I also received some spare console cables, USB to serial adapters and some materials for making ethernet cabling. Apparently it has been too long since I last made my own cables because I'm having a heck of a time doing it for some reason (practicing tonight). Maybe my fingers have gotten too fat... haha

    But really - thank you to all!
  • OctalDumpOctalDump Posts: 1,722Member
    I may have some equipment to use for free from work, stuff that is going to ewaste or resold and I was given permission to see if I could salvage anything.

    THis is a great tip if you are time rich and money poor. If you call around enough businesses and talk to someone in their IT department, you will usually end up with something usable if you can pick it up.

    Most companies depreciate their IT equipment over 3-5 years, and a some point it isn't actually worth anything to them. A lot, and seriously a lot, of old buy usable gear just gets dumped/ecycled.
    2017 Goals - Something Cisco, Something Linux, Agile PM
  • WeatherTechWeatherTech Posts: 16Member ■□□□□□□□□□
    Definitely will consider this if I am in the market for more equipment in the future. Is there a specific company "profile" that is generally more willing to give up gear? Ex: small, medium, or large companies? Any specific sector more likely to give you their old gear?
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