Would you negotiate salary in my situation? Other question.

Nightflier101BL

I recently received a job offer for a Cisco engineer position. I'm currently working in a lower tier, similar capacity making around 64K. This initial offer came in for a tad over 80K. The job would be close to home, stable, almost 100% R&S work but the benefits are not so great, to terrible. Would you try to negotiate higher - I was thinking 85K to compensate for the lack of benefits. This job has TONS of projects going on and new buildings being constructed. Lots of set up and configuration work.

However, this is a significant jump from where I'm at and I would have tons to learn and room to grow. I kind of feel like I would be greedy by asking for more. They do not know how much I currently make.

I'm also waiting on another offer from a company (said it was being approved). This one will pay similar but the benefits are much better, possible Secret clearance, work from home opportunities and laid back atmosphere. This would be more security (VPN, firewalls - ASA/Palo Alto). I also got a good feeling during the interview and liked the personality of the guy I would be working with. The only problem here is that it's not a guaranteed thing yet and I'm not positive about the pay (just going on what was said to me during the interview). About an hour drive each way. Also, not the biggest fan of going through the clearance process if I don't have to. Currently, the role doesn't require it but more than likely will in the future. I don't have any issues under the hood in that area.

With my current level of experience, both jobs would be fantastic learning experiences.

Would you just go with the sure thing and accept it? Would you try to negotiate higher on the first one and risk being rejected and hope the second offer comes through?

Thanks!

aftereffector

Okay, let's map this out:




Offer 1
Offer 2 (pending approval)


Salary
80K+
80K+


Benefits
terrible
good


Clearance
none
possible Secret requirement


Commute
short
1hr + possible WFH


Work type
route/switch
security (VPN, FW)


Atmosphere
(?)
laid back, good personality



Do you want to do R/S or security more? Which side do you see yourself pursuing more in 3 years?

How much do you value a short commute? Is a possible WFH job worth the 1hr commute for the other job?

Do you like the atmosphere and personalities that you would work with at the first job?

clouder

With my current job, I noticed the cost of insurance was significantly higher, and did negotiate for 5k more than their "max" to compensate. I would recommend doing so if necessary, it doesn't seem greedy.

A clearance is very excellent to have in the area. Really excellent. It opens a lot of doors, and it's not a bad process at all, particularly a Secret. Your pay will likely go up significantly for later jobs, as well.

thomas_

I'd be interested to know how you can have a job that requires a clearance that allows you to work from home.

clouder

thomas_ wrote: »

I'd be interested to know how you can have a job that requires a clearance that allows you to work from home.

The short version: Many positions require a clearance, but don't actually work with classified material because of need-to-know. A lot of places also don't even have classified systems, but do have a clearance requirement.

If you need to work on a classified system, you're heading to the office. You can telework with unclassified systems, as long as your employer is okay with it.

aftereffector

@thomas_ - just having a job that requires a clearance doesn't mean that you'd be working on classified stuff much of the time, or even hardly at all. My last employer had several people who worked from home periodically. They needed the clearance to get and maintain their jobs, but most of our systems and networks were UNCLASS.

thomas_

Good to know.

tpatt100

1 hour commutes get old, working from home even just 1 day a week can make a big difference.

joelsfood

Always negotiate. Especially over a commute like that

Nightflier101BL

The commute isn't really that big of a deal for me. I've asked for a little bit more from the first job and have received the offer from the second one. The second one cannot do anymore than 80K. I didn't mention this before but the first job is for a large healthcare organization and the second is a security solutions contractor for the DoD and Army

Tough decision but I'll wait to hear the final verdict from the first place and decide what to do. I'm leaning towards the second job though, considering the benefits and possible clearance, laid back atmosphere and plenty of favorable reviews on Indeed and Glassdoor. Not so good reviews on the first one - lot's of upper management problems and micromanaging. A very large percentage of employees have reported this. However, tons of projects, 100% EIGRP environment , Cisco wireless and VoIP.

I don't freakin' know, man. F.

I'll keep you posted, though.

Thanks for the replies!

NotHackingYou

Second one sounds like a winner to me

Nightflier101BL

Okay. I've accepted the first job with the hospital system.

I sent them a request for 85K a day ago and they said they would check and get back with me. In the meantime, this morning I was negotiating with the second offer. They only wanted to do 80K. I talked them into 82K, which they later took back and said no, they could only do 80K after all. That didn't leave a good feeling with me. I told them to send me the offer letter to sign. Almost immediately after I hung up the phone, the first job called and said 85K was fine.

I took it as a sign and accepted the offer today. I feel pretty good about it. The benefits are okay but the pay is right where I wanted and it's close to home. It's mainly R&S work which is my goal area.

Thanks for all the advise!

aftereffector

Congratulations! More money, shorter commute - I think you got the right one.

clouder

Congrats! You will definitely appreciate shorter commute where you are. The second job possibly didn't budge because they would have to sponsor you for a clearance.

ITSpectre

Good job!!! Its better to have a high paying job and a short commute... then a longer commute with average wage. The fact they did not want to budge meant you chose the right one!

scaredoftests

Being close to home is quite a benefit!

McxRisley

As someone who used to work for a healthcare organization and now currently works for the DoD, I think you should have taken the second job. The most likely reason they wouldn't budge on the salary increase is beacause they are only allotted so much money to spend per contract and they were probably at their max already. Now that being said, that doesn't mean that you couldn't negotiate for a raise down the road when the contractor acquires more money. Also one think you didn't think of was you may have started off as a contractor but you could have eventually went full government, a job which offers better benefits than any other place in the country pretty much not mention that after your 1 year probation it is basically impossible to get fired. Now about working for healthcare organizations, I would never recommend working for one(specifically hospitals) to anyone....EVER. Dealing with doctors is an experience that can not be described, it has to be experienced and that experience leads most people (mainly ITs) to seek out other job opportunities.

ThePawofRizzo

If the first job sounded a better fit for your current and future goals, then good you went for it. You and me and everyone else on TechExams could "Monday morning quarterback" your job decision after you've taken it ad nauseum. A guy just has to make a decision with what they have at the moment. You may find you love this new opportunity, and I hope you do....and you may find it ain't so great either. The plus with IT work is that as long as you keep your skills up, stay educated and techie, you always have the opportunity to find something new, or a better fit, etc. if this new position doesn't fit the bill at some point. Congrats, and I hope it's a great fit.

And you never know, that contract gig could call you back in two months and offer you more. I've had such happen to me after having a new job for about three months. I struggled a bit about taking the opportunity because I'd only been at my new job for those couple months, but decided I gotta worry about me, myself, and I. And this job has been great too. The other job was cool, but this was for a lot more money since they couldn't find a good fit they came back to me and met my price. You never know.....

Nightflier101BL

Thanks for the advice everyone. I really appreciate. I was a very decision, no doubt. I was exactly 50/50 on them until the offer backout on the second one. I just decided to go with my gut at that point.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to it and appreciate your help!

ITSpectre

McxRisley wrote: »

you may have started off as a contractor but you could have eventually went full government, a job which offers better benefits than any other place in the country pretty much not mention that after your 1 year probation it is basically impossible to get fired.

I agree.... But I also worked for the Govt as a contractor and the only benefit was a clearance. Dealing with contractors in the govt sector is worse. If you want to go full govt you have to be prepared for a wait and a hard interview. Plus there are plenty of opportunities in the public sector that are just as good if not better then govt. Plus lets be honest here.... Contractors get paid for the contract and they get paid for having you on the contract... the contractor has a budget but if they really wanted him they could have offered him more money. I have seen one contractor pay someone 35K and then pay someone else 45K.

Also Its hard to go from contractor to full govt.... most of the people who work in full govt used to be prior military... and they get preference over non military. I am not saying that you CANT go from being a contractor to full govt... but its hard to do that. Also with the govt if you can't get the clearance or you get denied a interim... then you don't have a job anymore. Your job is based about getting AND maintaining the clearance.... VS a full time job....where its based on your employer. The job security is there... But who says a job like this will not come a long again....???? I am a living witness to this... (short personal story)

I had a call from Quantico MCB for a job in IT.... dummy me I turned it down thinking I could get a better job with ADT security. Well ADT security was a "door to door sales job". So I quit the next day and had to keep looking for a job. Fast forward 2 years ago... I get a call from a contractor from Quantico saying they want to hire me on as a contractor. So just because you turn a govt job down now.... a better one may come later on.....

IMO its better to go with your gut over anything else... who knows, this job that he just took.... will prepare him to be something better in the future...

Always remember this....

"There are no mistakes only happy accidents" - Bob Ross

Chevel

OP congrats on the job! Sounds like a great deal so far.

ITSpectre

Nightflier101BL wrote: »

I talked them into 82K, which they later took back and said no, they could only do 80K after all. That didn't leave a good feeling with me. I told them to send me the offer letter to sign. Almost immediately after I hung up the phone, the first job called and said 85K was fine.

It's mainly R&S work which is my goal area.

Thanks for all the advise!

The fact that you talked to them and negotiated 82K and they Agreed.... meant they prob could go up to 85K but the contractor would get a pay cut so you can make more money.... PLUS contractors work on commission so they arent paid much at all. I think you going with the CISCO job was the right thing to do... If I were you I would have done the same thing especially after the contractor backed out of 82K.

Hope you do well and congrats!!!!

Clm

OP Congrats

Nightflier101BL

Thanks! On a side note, I just got walked out my current employer this afternoon, after putting in a written two weeks notice beforehand. It was a little unnerving but doesn't surprise me. At least they let me pack up my own things first.

thomas_

I think employees should give 2.5 weeks notice instead of 2 weeks notice. In some states it makes a difference between whether you can claim unemployment or not in situations where you give notice and your employer immediately terminates you. 2 weeks or less of notice is usually looked at voluntarily leaving, More than 2 weeks is usually looked at unvoluntary and your employer has to prove why you're ineligible for unemployment.

ITSpectre

thomas_ wrote: »

I think employees should give 2.5 weeks notice instead of 2 weeks notice. In some states it makes a difference between whether you can claim unemployment or not in situations where you give notice and your employer immediately terminates you. 2 weeks or less of notice is usually looked at voluntarily leaving, More than 2 weeks is usually looked at unvoluntary and your employer has to prove why you're ineligible for unemployment.

2 weeks is enough.... but the way I look at it is a two sided coin.

Usually you are told to give two weeks for 2 reasons....

1. To give the employer notice that you are planning to leave
2. To allow yourself to be re-hired if things do not work out at the new gig

As an employee though you are under no obligation to give any notice that you plan to leave.... you can come in say "I quit" and walk out. There is nothing preventing you from doing that. As far as unemployment goes... depending on the state you live in as long as you were not fired for "misconduct" you are allowed to collect unemployment.... I would check with the state you live in though. The goal though is to have another job/gig lined up before you leave so that you don't have to worry or collect "unemployment" I have been there before and its not fun collecting unemployment.... Also think about this, I understand we should not burn bridges and all but an employer does not give an employee 2 weeks notice that they are getting fired.... unless they are on a contract and the contract end date was not discussed in the interview (normally it is). Also keep in mind that if you leave voluntarily you will have a interview with the unemployment commission and you AND the employer will be on the phone, this will determine if you can get unemployment (been there done that)

If you get laid off.... you can collect it. But I mean if you are giving 2 weeks notice because you got another job then you dont have to worry about unemployment stuff....

BradleyHU

thomas_ wrote: »

I think employees should give 2.5 weeks notice instead of 2 weeks notice. In some states it makes a difference between whether you can claim unemployment or not in situations where you give notice and your employer immediately terminates you. 2 weeks or less of notice is usually looked at voluntarily leaving, More than 2 weeks is usually looked at unvoluntary and your employer has to prove why you're ineligible for unemployment.

you can't claim unemployment when you voluntarily leave a job. You can claim when you're let go tho.

And 2 weeks notice is a courtesy, unless you in a right-to-work state. Most employers don't give you any notice when they're about to give you the chop, so them getting 2 wks notice is more than enough.

ITSpectre

BradleyHU wrote: »

you can't claim unemployment when you voluntarily leave a job. You can claim when you're let go tho.

And 2 weeks notice is a courtesy, unless you in a right-to-work state. Most employers don't give you any notice when they're about to give you the chop, so them getting 2 wks notice is more than enough.

Not true... it depends on what state you live in, and your reason for leaving.....

Even employees who quit their jobs may be able to collect unemployment, but that depends on their reasons for leaving. In every state, an employee who voluntarily quits a job without good cause is not eligible for unemployment. But state laws vary as to how they define "good cause."

Source: http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/unemployment-benefits-when-quit-32450.html

If you leave a job because you don't like it then yeah.... you can't collect. But if you leave a job because you were lied to about the position and were promised to have this and that and you started and never got it.... and you have documentation then you prob can have a case.... (the latter happened to me)

thomas_

BradleyHU wrote: »

you can't claim unemployment when you voluntarily leave a job. You can claim when you're let go tho.

Each state has different laws.

The state I currently work in the unemployment office takes the stance that if you give 2 weeks notice and your employer immediately terminates your employment then that is a voluntary dismissal and the onus would be on the employee to prove that there is another circumstance present to justify them getting unemployment, which there are certain cases.

However, if you give more than two weeks of notice and your employer immediately terminates you, then it's considered an involuntary dismissal and the onus is on the employer to prove why you should not receive unemployment benefits.

I'm not saying this is applicable in all states. I'm just saying it would be a smart move to read up on the employment manual most states provide to employers that give them an idea of different laws that affect their business, especially if you're in a position where you needed that last two weeks of pay. There's not a lot of difference between 17 days and 14 days of pay, but there could be quite a bit of difference in the unemployment benefits you claim such as nothing at all and your regular unemployment rate.

DoubleNNs

I'm just going to drop these 2 links in here, then go back and actually read thru the thread:

Blog post from 2012: Salary Negotiation: Make More Money, Be More Valued | Kalzumeus Software

Podcast from mere days ago: Kalzumeus Podcast Episode 12: Salary Negotiation with Josh Doody | Kalzumeus Software

Negotiate off of mere principle, even if it's just to ask if benefits can be improved or extra PTO days, or the ability to work from home once a month. I'm still young and early in my career, but this is the stance I'm taking from now on.

Nightflier101BL

Great articles. Thanks!