Feeling bitter about the IT certification racket; People who dumped the test, and...

UnixGuy

Don't waste your energy on other people (i.e. don't waste energy on what you have no control over).

Just follow your path and do your own thing, your success and journey is what really matters

Mike7

Being technical is important but so are soft skills such as communication and presentation skills.
Anyway, here is a joke I took from the net to loosen everyone

A turkey was chatting with a bull. "I would love to be able to get to the top of that tree," sighed the turkey, "but I haven't got the energy. "Well, why don't you nibble on some of my droppings?" replied the bull. "They're packed with nutrients." The turkey pecked at a lump of dung and found that it actually gave him enough strength to reach the first branch of the tree. The next day, after eating some more dung, he reached the second branch. Finally after a fourth night, there he was proudly perched at the top of the tree. Soon he was promptly spotted by a farmer, who shot the turkey out of the tree.

Management Lesson: Bullshit might get you to the top, but it won't keep you there

source: Management Lesson Joke - Animal Jokes

PJ_Sneakers

You know, people get university degrees this way too.

You can hit the books, study your ass off, write badass essays and pass. Or you can hit the bank, ATM your ass off, and pay someone else to write your papers.

It's pretty commonplace in colleges now. Some studies suggest as much as 75% of college students admit to cheating.

In the end, if you know it, you know it. If you don't, you don't. Life's not fair, but I do believe in karma working like a marathon instead of a sprint.

[Deleted User]

The people that **** won't have the technical knowledge when it comes to the interview or even the real job. They won't last long. Keep your head up and continue to do things ethically! Everything they do will catch up to them at one point or another!

NOC-Ninja

I wouldnt worry about it. Interviews usually ask about your knowledge and experience. You cannot stop people from doing what they want to do even though its wrong. Cheating has always been there.
You see arnold using steroids and winning those mr universe competition. You have these politicians taking money from other countries when they are running in the office. You have people getting into their spot not because of their knowledge but because they know the people inside, thats cheating too. How about a kids parents are genetically smart or strong so the kid becomes smarter or stronger than other kids? Would that be cheating too?


Hell even celebrities sleeps with their producers just to get the spot.


So where do you draw the line? its up to you. its up to the other person.
Cheating or not cheating, the person will still have to study to be able to design, configure and troubleshoot the network.


Id suggest use your pain to study more.

PC509

Also, I've found that a common thing around these forums and other places - you find someone with the passion for the industry, and they won't be dumping. They'll WANT to learn the material because they enjoy it. They love learning new technologies. Sure, it can get you a better job. But, it's fun. It's interesting. It's freaking awesome when you learn something and you can save the day with that knowledge.

Have fun. Those dumpers probably aren't having much fun doing their jobs.... I have fun daily at work.

TechGromit

SpetsRepair wrote: »

The things I don't understand about this, is do they believe the cert will get them in a higher position? You actually have to understand the technology, fortune 500 company will not hire you for a position just because you have a few certs.

Certifications get you past the HR filter, if your lucky, your interviewer will not be technically savvy and you'll be able to BS your way though an interview. If you have the technical knowledge that goes along with certification, will will not have to rely on luck and BS to get you though an interview. I had a co-worker that had a CCNA, initially I was impressed, but it quickly became apparent he really didn't have the understanding he should have had if he really earned his CCNA. I was one of the people that was proof checking his switch configurations before he was allowed to deploy them. After several screw ups, he no longer works with the company.

fredrikjj

To stay sane I recommend only using the certification as a guide to learning material that you are already interested in. It is actually useful that someone has already made a list of relevant material for you, instead of you having to compile this list yourself. Also try to be at least slightly above the level of the highest level of cert that you have, and you won't run into the problem of being seen as a weak candidate relative to your credentials. I've asked people that interview people and what they tell me is that the technical skills of candidates vary a lot, and this means that you will stand out if you study seriously.

ming746

The people you refer too are called paper techs. They memorize a book and pass a test but have no real world experience.

You must grind and poush your resume when I first started I didn't even have a cert yet but I pounded the pohone books calling every where I could almost begging for a job just to get my foot in the door in the industry. I got lucky and someone gave me a chance. It also didn't help one of my best friends was a Cisco engineer I could piuck up the phone and call and ask questions to and advice from at any time.

If you can get the experience to back it up the certs are fine. But mainylk are just a resume booster. Cert or no cert if yoiyoiu get an interviews and yoiu k now your stuff and you make them see you know it then you will get hired.

Confidence ,presentation are everything in almost all walks of life.

Chinook

Don't worry too much about those people who brain ****. Focus on building a robust, in-depth you and the technical interview types will pick up on that. I know this guy I work with and he has no certifications but he is one of the smartest people I've ever met in this industry. His collection of knowledge is wisdom.

I used to work in an MSP and you could see the guys who brain dumped stuff. Anything remotely tricky and they'd be escalating it immediately. You'd get the "I don't know this software, why am I fixing it". The smart guys would dig trying to figure it out & understand the problem.

ImYourOnlyDJ

I'm hoping technical certifications become more lab focused. The example you provided would make a great CCNP lab question (use basic troubleshooting to determine if its the switch, SFP, or the fiber run that is the cause of issues). I just passed CCNP Switch and I thought the labs were way better for testing real world knowledge than most of the multiple choice questions.

TechGromit

SpetsRepair wrote: »

Management, supervisors, and other engineers have mentioned in casual water cooler talk they found the answers to a palo alto cert, they found a cert **** to cisco, fortinet, and other vendors proprietary certs. The things I don't understand about this, is do they believe the cert will get them in a higher position?

Actually it might. I knew a guy who worked in Florida used a program called Mercury Test Tools, now called Quick Test Professional (QTP), he was earning around the mid-40's salary wise. He paid a couple of thousand dollars for training and got himself a Mercury test tool certification. All his co-workers thought he was crazy wasting his money, but after he got his cert, he listed it on a job board and was picked up by the Federal government agency I was working for. He was able to get himself a nice 100k salary, simply because the government required to person that filled the opening have the certification he had. I'm not saying he brain **** his way into the certification, he knew his stuff, but I'm sure plenty of people could have done the job that didn't have a certification just as well, but having the right certification and some experience got him a huge bump in salary.

When the sequester cuts hit in the 2013, he go a little fearful about his job and listed his resume again on a job board, he was picked up by SiriusXM (a fortune500 company) and was able to keep the same salary.

Params7

xxxkaliboyxxx wrote: »

If you want to talk about brain dumping and paper tigers, you should look no further than DoD. Now I can only speak for the Army, since I worked on the uniform and currently on the civilian side. Not only is brain dumping allowed behind closed doors, it's actually encourage. I mean seriously, these guys are getting hired purely on certifications in order to meet DoD requirement (you can tell within 5 minutes who the guys/gals are). Not only that, even when they bring in professional companies to conduct a bootcamp on an Army installations, the instructors are passing out **** at the end of class. Now would they have the balls to do that without prior approval? I have no idea, but on the Army side you can actually get hired without any actual credentials and they will give you 30 days to pass the exam. If that isn't a undertone to brain ****...

No wonder these guys are claiming they got hacked by Russians (which I know is all political bull..but if things really are this way in government agencies, it almost makes me wonder).

lucky0977

Ya gotta wonder, with so many IT jobs in DOD, why are there so many contractors doing the job the DOD should be doing? Makes you wonder who is better trained or educated.

xxxkaliboyxxx

lucky0977 wrote: »

Ya gotta wonder, with so many IT jobs in DOD, why are there so many contractors doing the job the DOD should be doing? Makes you wonder who is better trained or educated.

Answer is neither

Danielh22185

I can for one say I've worked with the dumpers and I see where it gets them (not very far). You will see this in the early stages of your career as an IT professional where it's easy for anybody to **** an entry to mid-level test and potentially get an entry to mid level job. Most those types of jobs don't have hard requirements for the candidate to get past so it's possible they can regurgitate enough to get an offer. However it will all fade for those people and keep them in the entry to mid level jobs because these people want the easy street.

I've worked with the NOC rats that have 20+ years of doing the same basic job because they never went after more and only kept renewing their same cert or two via brain ****. In the end they will always just be that same NOC rat. There are rare cases too where said fool getting promoted either via a buddy club they have going on or because of someone they may know. Mostly I have seen this with middle management. However they still usually get no further than that (middle mgmt) and become institutionalized because they don't feel the need to do anything technical anymore which even further weakens their marketability.

The moral of the story and my best piece of advice is:
Stay invested in yourself and do what you are passionate about. The cheaters will only get so far and in the end you will be happy of your commitment to yourself and your accomplishments.

networker050184

People **** at everything. Just the way it is. Nothing special about cert exams in that regard. Don't let it deter you.

MAC_Addy

Like networker said, people **** at everything, that's life. If you go through the process of studying and being able to retain the information, you're golden. When asked by someone you work with, or someone you're interviewing with, they'll be able to tell if you know the material or not. If you're satisfied with your knowledge, you're doing okay

ivx502

xxxkaliboyxxx wrote: »

It's obvious, he is going to **** his way to CTO!

If you want to talk about brain dumping and paper tigers, you should look no further than DoD. Now I can only speak for the Army, since I worked on the uniform and currently on the civilian side. Not only is brain dumping allowed behind closed doors, it's actually encourage. I mean seriously, these guys are getting hired purely on certifications in order to meet DoD requirement (you can tell within 5 minutes who the guys/gals are). Not only that, even when they bring in professional companies to conduct a bootcamp on an Army installations, the instructors are passing out **** at the end of class. Now would they have the balls to do that without prior approval? I have no idea, but on the Army side you can actually get hired without any actual credentials and they will give you 30 days to pass the exam. If that isn't a undertone to brain ****...

With that said, any company of worth is going to see right through it. Take for example when I interviewed with your search engine. I made it all the way to the final face to face interview and there is no way anyone that brain **** would ever make it that far. They bombarded me with scenario questions for hours. I felt good leaving the interview so I could only imagine that only someone that really knew his stuff would of outshined me for the engineer role.

Case in point, any job and company of any worth can tell who the fakers are.

It use to be a person had up to six months in order to obtain the necessary certifications. When I worked for the Army it was up to six months. With where I work now you have to have it by day one. If your certifications lapse, and they find out about it game over you're gone before you can correct the problem.

I have never taken a certification course offered by the DoD, so I cannot say for certain if they hand out the materials you speak of.

lucky0977

ivx502 wrote: »

I have never taken a certification course offered by the DoD, so I cannot say for certain if they hand out the materials you speak of.

I'm not going to paint a broad brush and state that it occurs everywhere in the DOD. My experience came from when I was on vacation and they decided to have a week long bootcamp for the CASP. I wasn't able to attend so they paid for my books and online CBT classes that I spent 6 months studying for. When I actually came around to taking the test, I thought I failed and did poorly only to find out that I passed but didn't know my actual score. I went back to work and asked my boss how so many people were able to pass the test with only a 5 day class. He showed me the study guide the instructor had them take home at the end of the day and to my amazement, they were the exact same questions on my exam. This is the AF-DOD and I complained to my boss but he just told me "Hey, people gotta feed their families".

In the end as the others have said, the ones who actually studied will eventually move up the totem pole or these mindless f%cks will learn how to tap dance around when questioned. Till then, just realize you're gonna have to do your job and embarrass these clowns when an actual issue arises.

evarney

I've been reading this and somewhat just lurking since I posted. I gather a lot of you people believe DoD or other federal employees are the worst.

In either case; my resentment is more from the fact that I have met people who have certs in stuff like JNCIA and BCNE and I know they've never even logged into that **** before. It's like the little 12 year old in India with the CCNP. He hasn't been alive long enough to realistically have the skills.

it's just BS...

dave330i

evarney wrote: »

I've been reading this and somewhat just lurking since I posted. I gather a lot of you people believe DoD or other federal employees are the worst.

In either case; my resentment is more from the fact that I have met people who have certs in stuff like JNCIA and BCNE and I know they've never even logged into that **** before. It's like the little 12 year old in India with the CCNP. He hasn't been alive long enough to realistically have the skills.

it's just BS...

1. Many cert exams aren't that hard.

2. There are a lot of smart 12 year olds in the world.

I don't care how you got your cert. If you can't answer my questions, you're not getting hired by me.

evarney

monkey see monkey do.

But monkey doesn't always understand.

In either case; I am wanting to get into a field that is less based on certification. I figure coding would be an example of that. You can't fake writing code as easily as you can fake getting a cert.

I agree interviews need to be challenging. Maybe even hands on. I think a hands on practical test would prove more than a verbal quiz laced with network trivia questions.

Interviewer: "ummm ummm what port is web???"
Interviewee: UHHH its 80 LOL,
Interviewer: but ALSO i might be 443 LOLOLOLOL

It doesn't mean you know how to configure a firewall. If I was hiring someone, I'd build a lab network, show them briefly that it works, have someone break it, clear da logs, and then have the potential employee troubleshoot it. If they show any kind of intelligence, then hire.

rcsoar4fun

I wouldn't bet on the coding world being much different. There are tons of people in that world that borrow/beg/steal/modify other people's work.

The truth is, there is very little original thought in the IT world. There are few "engineers" that have ever built a new IT system or network from the ground up. Very, very few have ever touched everything on a network.

To be fair, most of the time there is zero ROI on reinventing the wheel.

In the end success often has little to do with what one knows and has more to do with what one can learn. How quickly can one learn it?

How well does one get along with coworkers? How well can you stand the guy next to you at 3am in the datacenter when the SHTF? Can said coworker take a joke?

In short OP, suck it up buttercup and enjoy the experience.

evarney

rcsoar4fun wrote: »

How well does one get along with coworkers? How well can you stand the guy next to you at 3am in the datacenter when the SHTF? Can said coworker take a joke?

In short OP, suck it up buttercup and enjoy the experience.

My sense of humor is fully functional and I was the most approachable guy in da data center. Anyway, your customer base isn't even human. Hippie.

si20

I think we've now moved onto a slightly different, albeit just as relevant theme: people lying about their skills.

I consider myself highly trustworthy and an honest person. That's easily said, but I am. I am not good with Cisco/Juniper stuff - i'm not a network guy. Sure, I could take some considerable time and learn it, but i'd never go to an interview and preach that I know something I don't.

Let me tell you a quick story. A girl I went to university with was terrible at IT - fair play, she wanted to improve, but she didn't know what a hard drive was for; she didn't even know that's what data is stored on. Anyway, she liedbig time on her Linkedin page and said she could program in C# and went to a first-line support role and was started on 17k! (£) Ok, not big money, but the fact i'm unemployed, when i've self-funded and spent all of my own time studying exams makes me a little bitter. She ultimately got "told to leave" because they found her out and knew she was a fraud... make of that what you will.

Moldygr33nb3an

lucky0977 wrote: »

Ya gotta wonder, with so many IT jobs in DOD, why are there so many contractors doing the job the DOD should be doing? Makes you wonder who is better trained or educated.

Because it's cheaper to pay a contracting company for minimally qualified personnel, than pay DOD employees pay + full benefits and retirement for life.

PCTechLinc

si20 wrote: »

I think we've now moved onto a slightly different, albeit just as relevant theme: people lying about their skills.

I consider myself highly trustworthy and an honest person. That's easily said, but I am. I am not good with Cisco/Juniper stuff - i'm not a network guy. Sure, I could take some considerable time and learn it, but i'd never go to an interview and preach that I know something I don't.

Let me tell you a quick story. A girl I went to university with was terrible at IT - fair play, she wanted to improve, but she didn't know what a hard drive was for; she didn't even know that's what data is stored on. Anyway, she liedbig time on her Linkedin page and said she could program in C# and went to a first-line support role and was started on 17k! (£) Ok, not big money, but the fact i'm unemployed, when i've self-funded and spent all of my own time studying exams makes me a little bitter. She ultimately got "told to leave" because they found her out and knew she was a fraud... make of that what you will.

Takes me back to an article I read while I worked at RadioShack: RadioShack Chief Resigns After Lying - The New York Times

It eventually caught up with him, but he was our leader at RadioShack for HOW LONG? Unfortunately there are a lot more of them out there that haven't been caught yet. Until then, they're probably raking in the dough by faking it until they make it. :-/

rcsoar4fun

Moldygr33nb3an wrote: »

Because it's cheaper to pay a contracting company for minimally qualified personnel, than pay DOD employees pay + full benefits and retirement for life.

There hasn't been retirement for DoD civilians in quite a long time.

Moldygr33nb3an

rcsoar4fun wrote: »

There hasn't been retirement for DoD civilians in quite a long time.

What? 2 years ago they purged 30+ year civilians with huge retirement bonuses. DOD Civilians retire all the time after 30 years of service. We had a sys admin retire after 30+ years and then come back as a contractor.

Not sure what you mean.