Remote Training?

markulous

I'm signing up for the GSEC training course here in Denver in June and I saw that they had a remote option. Has anyone done this? If not, do you think it'd create a large challenge to do the class remotely? I wasn't sure how hands-on they were and if I could get a similar learning experience remoting in. The benefit I'm looking at is simply the traffic. The commute in the morning would be pretty bad.

TacoRocket

They are essentially the same. You get quizzes when doing the on demand. They will also explain how to join the VPN when on demand. The only thing I know that lacks from remote versus online is the ability to earn a coin for winning the last day challenge.

markulous wrote: »

I'm signing up for the GSEC training course here in Denver in June and I saw that they had a remote option. Has anyone done this? If not, do you think it'd create a large challenge to do the class remotely? I wasn't sure how hands-on they were and if I could get a similar learning experience remoting in. The benefit I'm looking at is simply the traffic. The commute in the morning would be pretty bad.

markulous

If the difference is just a coin, I think I'd rather do it remotely. Let's see if my boss is on board with it now... I'm still in shock that with the course and voucher, it's over 6k. Glad I don't have to pay for it.

iBrokeIT

Honestly, given your current certs/edu/skills I would recommend skipping the GSEC (if possible) and going for the GCIH. You are going to be bored as hell learning about entry level security concepts.

TacoRocket

Either that or GCED

iBrokeIT wrote: »

Honestly, given your current certs/edu/skills I would recommend skipping the GSEC (if possible) and going for the GCIH. You are going to be bored as hell learning about entry level security concepts.

markulous

Interesting. This whole time I thought the GSEC was above the GCIH since that's what they wanted me to go through and our entry-level analyst go through the GCIH. They must be a little confused. I'll bring this up before they pay for it and see if they want me to go through the GCED or GCIH. If not, I guess they'll be paying quite a bit of money for stuff I (mostly) already know.

iBrokeIT

With your MSCIA?, Linux+ and Security+ I would be shocked if you are not actually bored going through the SEC401/GSEC because it isn't very technical compared to their other courses. Look at the course syllabus: https://www.sans.org/course/security-essentials-bootcamp-style

Compared the SEC504/GCIH: https://www.sans.org/course/hacker-techniques-exploits-incident-handling

Which looks more interesting and challenging to you?

markulous

You're definitely 100% right. As soon as I saw "What is Active Directory" and key networking concepts such as "DNS", I think I'd be bored to tears. If they want to drop 6k for me to do that I'll do it since it's their money, but I suggested the GCIH or GCED.

Danielm7

Not sure what your work duties are but i'm told the GCIA is fantastic. FWIW I did one of their on demand courses last year. I found it harder to stay motivated because my manager at the time didn't really understand it's not worth doing 20 minutes of a SANS class here and there over a few months. I didn't feel like I retained nearly as much as I would have if I was more immersed. With that said, I think if you block off entire days for training then it would be a different situation.

markulous

I'd be down for the GCIA also. We're using Firesight and Stealthwatch, so that would help quit a bit with that IMO.

TacoRocket

Honestly they are all good certifications. I would look at all 3 and see what would benefit you the most right now. My first SANS cert was the GCIH and it wasn't bad. I'll be working on the GCED here soon with a coworker and then I look forward to the GCIA one of these days.

markulous wrote: »

I'd be down for the GCIA also. We're using Firesight and Stealthwatch, so that would help quit a bit with that IMO.

bigdogz

I am doing the GCIH through the mentor program. We get together once a week and talk about the class. Generally it's one book a week with a total of 6 books. You can take some time and digest the class and go through the MP3's at will.

Good Luck.

markulous

Well change of plans it seems. Looks like I'm studying for the GCIH, but none of the SANS training, it's just self-study. I'm fine with that, but our current standard is that we have to front the money for the cert and they reimburse us and I'm honestly not comfortable putting up nearly $1300. I mean I think I'd pass, but I've got a family and I'm the sole source of income. So either they make an exception or I'll just say the heck with SANS and see if they'll put me through a CISSP bootcamp this year.

TacoRocket

How do you plan on self study? The exam is based on their books...

markulous wrote: »

Well change of plans it seems. Looks like I'm studying for the GCIH, but none of the SANS training, it's just self-study. I'm fine with that, but our current standard is that we have to front the money for the cert and they reimburse us and I'm honestly not comfortable putting up nearly $1300. I mean I think I'd pass, but I've got a family and I'm the sole source of income. So either they make an exception or I'll just say the heck with SANS and see if they'll put me through a CISSP bootcamp this year.

markulous

They've purchased their books supposedly. Not sure how current they are or even when the last time this cert was updated.

Danielm7

Wait, they plan on handing you someone else's books? That's not OK.

sb97

markulous wrote: »

Well change of plans it seems. Looks like I'm studying for the GCIH, but none of the SANS training, it's just self-study. I'm fine with that, but our current standard is that we have to front the money for the cert and they reimburse us and I'm honestly not comfortable putting up nearly $1300. I mean I think I'd pass, but I've got a family and I'm the sole source of income. So either they make an exception or I'll just say the heck with SANS and see if they'll put me through a CISSP bootcamp this year.

Ouch, that sucks. My company was talking about the same situation.

TechGromit

markulous wrote: »

They've purchased their books supposedly. Not sure how current they are or even when the last time this cert was updated.

Not possible, SANS doesn't sell the books, they are only included when you take the course. Your not allowed to transfer materials, so they are doing something shady here.

markulous

Oh wow, so it's not like training materials for the CCNA or something? If that's the case, I'm not doing it and I'm telling the CIO the situation. They can decide if they want to put me through a SANS training course or if not, I'm down for the CISSP boot camp or just self-study, which would be cheaper. Glad I know now before anything shady actually happened.

TacoRocket

Yeah its a sticking point. I don't necessarily agree but that's how they treat the books. CISSP would not be bad either.

markulous wrote: »

Oh wow, so it's not like training materials for the CCNA or something? If that's the case, I'm not doing it and I'm telling the CIO the situation. They can decide if they want to put me through a SANS training course or if not, I'm down for the CISSP boot camp or just self-study, which would be cheaper. Glad I know now before anything shady actually happened.

bigdogz

Yeah, buying the books is a problem because you don't know when the exam will change or if it already did when the book came out.

It's better to get the books from buying the class. Quite a few people have questions about the content and since this is an open book exam you need to have an index that works with the current exam.

LWB250

markulous wrote: »

Oh wow, so it's not like training materials for the CCNA or something? If that's the case, I'm not doing it and I'm telling the CIO the situation. They can decide if they want to put me through a SANS training course or if not, I'm down for the CISSP boot camp or just self-study, which would be cheaper. Glad I know now before anything shady actually happened.

As others have pointed out, the only way to get SANS/GIAC materials is to have paid for and taken the class, whether it be the live class or on-demand. Buying materials is a no-no for both the seller and buyer, as SANS will revoke your certification or ban you from certifying if you are found to have violated the agreement required when taking the classes or exams.


If you were to use bootleg materials to take the certification test you would be in violation of the agreement. Consider that the GIAC folks have access to the lists of people who sign up for or attend SANS training. If you're not challenging the test it would be pretty obvious that you got the materials from an unauthorized source.

A very risky thing to do when it affects your livelihood, not to mention highly unprofessional and unethical.

markulous

I honestly had no idea that was the case. I'm not about to do anything unethical in my career, especially when I'm in infosec. They can tell me to use the materials until they're blue in the face, but I'm not doing it. So I'll give them these options:

SANS course - GCIH, GCED, etc. 6k
CISSP Bootcamp. 4k
CISSP self-study ~$200 in material.

cyberguypr

This is sounding like they got books off eBay or from someone who is renewing their GIAC certs.

markulous

cyberguypr wrote: »

This is sounding like they got books off eBay or from someone who is renewing their GIAC certs.

Guessing the latter. Glad I realized now rather than later though.

TechGromit

LWB250 wrote: »

Buying materials is a no-no for both the seller and buyer, as SANS will revoke your certification or ban you from certifying if you are found to have violated the agreement required when taking the classes or exams.

I would disagree with your interpretation, while the seller is in violation of agreement, I fail to see how the buyer is in violation of an agreement they have not seen or possess before the sale of said materials. While I agree that the "new" owner of the books must abide by the agreement and held accountable for future violations of the agreement, they are not in breach of the agreement until they possess the materials in question. No where in the agreement does it state if you obtained these materials for a source other than the SANS Institute you are in violation of said agreement. While I'm not a lawyer, I highly doubt such a clause would be enforceable.

LWB250 wrote: »

If you were to use bootleg materials to take the certification test you would be in violation of the agreement. Consider that the GIAC folks have access to the lists of people who sign up for or attend SANS training. If you're not challenging the test it would be pretty obvious that you got the materials from an unauthorized source.

Others have challenged the exam without getting on the SANS and NSA watch list, all of the materials contained in the SANS books can be obtained from other sources, it could be other books, security white papers, security professional blogs, industry articles, etc. Now granted you would have to read and a study a lot more material to pass the exam, not knowing whats testable. On the other hand, the books have exactly what will be contained in the exams.

markulous

Hmm...So it's possible I could use the materials still and be fine. Two biggest challenges would be: The material is a couple years old, how relevant is it? And then the fact that the company only reimburses me for passed certs, which they can go suck a lemon if they want me to front $1300.

cyberguypr

Regardless of the agreement violation technicality, using the material would present an ethical conflict since you know you didn't get those materials legitimately. In my eyes the books are no different than a torrented movie. By the time you add up the fact that the books are older and you would have to put the money up front, no thanks.

markulous

cyberguypr wrote: »

Regardless of the agreement violation technicality, using the material would present an ethical conflict since you know you didn't get those materials legitimately. In my eyes the books are no different than a torrented movie. By the time you add up the fact that the books are older and you would have to put the money up front, no thanks.

Yep...I'll lay it out to my boss next week I think and see what he's down for, but self-studying with the materials now isn't an option IMO.

TechGromit

markulous wrote: »

Hmm...So it's possible I could use the materials still and be fine. Two biggest challenges would be: The material is a couple years old, how relevant is it? And then the fact that the company only reimburses me for passed certs, which they can go suck a lemon if they want me to front $1300.

If they are only reimbursing you if you pass the exam, then they should provide you with the best possible chance to succeed. Obtaining a set of books that may be outdated, from a questionable source and expect you to front the money for the exam doesn't sit well for me. At the very least I would want to see what books they expect me to use. What if you pay for the exam and they give you a set of 4 books that are three years old and expect you to pass using them? At the very least I would ask SANS for guidance, so not to get into an ethical dilemma with them. While it may technically legal, do you really want to get lawyers involved if something goes wrong? It could be very expensive to prove your right.

markulous

Yeah, those are definitely some of my concerns. Setting me up for failure and to lose $1300 would be absurd, I wouldn't do it.