Job offer: How much of pay cut is too much?

skswitch

Recently I was approach by a recruiter from a company about a position that was similar to mine. I wasn't openly looking but wanted to see what they had to offer. Best jobs are usually when you aren't looking.

Doing my research on the company and position from web searching then asking the recruiter questions. it showed it could be a great opportunity. It was way bigger network and had linear path of NOC L1, L2 either Network Engineer / Network architect. This is what I've been trying to get into! Where I am now we have one network engineer who is CCIE level and not going to go anywhere anything soon. Add in fact I never get to shadow work with him due to different locations. From LinkedIn stalking the people at this other company consisted of two NOC teams with a third being built, almost everyone had a solid network background and tenure at the company an average of 5 - 10 years.

Interview / Offer
Went through the hoops they had with phone interview, tech phone interview and then a in person (8 person btw! That was a beating). I get positive feed back from in the personal interview and get the offer... way lower than I expected and position title changed. Instead of the L2 position its a L1 now.

Background and Offer pay
Current - L2 NOC Engineer recently promoted. L1 pay was 55k with 10% bonus (60k). L2 position where I am now is 65k with 10% bonus (~71k).

Offer - L1 NOC engineer 56k with 2.8k sign on bonus. With in a year if I didn't get a pay raise it would be back to 9k cut. Kinda a gamble. Maybe I can score a promotion and pay raise maybe not.

The position I have now actually worked that way as well. Interviewed for a L2 but got offered a L1. I climbed my way up after a year recently. The position the other company offered was actually more than I made as a L1 here with a sign on bonus. (I do consider bonus pay when asked full compensation however bonuses don't mean anything to me til its in my bank account)

So when I think about it. It does sound like a big cut. But since I just recently moved up I'm not even use to the increase. I haven't even gotten a months worth of new pay. Question is...do I make a lateral move and start where I was or sit where I am now. I feel like I can get experience here but at a slow rate compared to other job where I would almost be running.

I'm not a compensation chasing person. I look for opportunities more than $$$. However, I'm afraid of feeling of starting over again.

UncleB

So you are looking at a move to a new company (with the associated risk of being let go in probationary period) for a lower level position and less pay just on the possibility of getting more exposure to the technology?

My opinion is that it is a bad call. Stay where you are, get a lot more active in learning about the technolgies in use (get certified in them to prove you know your stuff) and engage with the other engineer to get them to mentor you. This way you can spend more time in the L2 role, get certified in stuff you actually work with and all the time become more valuable in the market place.

Keep an eye on the market and apply for jobs when you are more experienced so you can land a L2 role comfortably and be capable to slide straight in there to be useful on day 1. The experience + certs will allow you to leverage a much higher salary than you are on now as well.

Extend your scope of studies as well - cover firewalls, security, Linux and maybe Azure/AWS (again focus on the technologies actually in use in your company) so you are more than just a niche player. All this will add to your value in the marketplace and give you a more interesting range of work.

Just my thoughts though.
Iain

leboratorical

I'm not in the same field, so it may be different, but there are some strikes against the new company that you may want to have a chat with them about and consider:
1: Is there any leeway for negotiation?
2: What does the feel of the company tell you, as well as the LinkedIn profiles? Are the engineers in the company getting promotions? If not, then what is the likelihood that you will, if they're all with the company for so long? What is the general culture of the company like for you?
3: If you weren't looking for a job beforehand, then why would you jump for less money, less interesting work potentially and a lower tier?
4: Since you are a lot better at identifying what's missing, then why not look for a job that fits those requirements instead of letting the (sometimes good) companies come to you?

I'm not saying that you definitely shouldn't go for it, because it sounds like you're excited, but the only thing it sounds like it has going for it is that there are more people and it is a bigger place. It sounds like you've learned a lot more from being on your own in your current company because you've had to.

Either way, good luck!

Kinet1c

I moved laterally from NOC to NOC before. I got more favourable hours, more interesting work and better money. This doesn't sound like a good deal right now. See if you can negotiate for more money.

skswitch

UncleB wrote: »

So you are looking at a move to a new company (with the associated risk of being let go in probationary period) for a lower level position and less pay just on the possibility of getting more exposure to the technology?

My opinion is that it is a bad call. Stay where you are, get a lot more active in learning about the technologies in use (get certified in them to prove you know your stuff) and engage with the other engineer to get them to mentor you. This way you can spend more time in the L2 role, get certified in stuff you actually work with and all the time become more valuable in the market place.

Keep an eye on the market and apply for jobs when you are more experienced so you can land a L2 role comfortably and be capable to slide straight in there to be useful on day 1. The experience + certs will allow you to leverage a much higher salary than you are on now as well.

Extend your scope of studies as well - cover firewalls, security, Linux and maybe Azure/AWS (again focus on the technologies actually in use in your company) so you are more than just a niche player. All this will add to your value in the marketplace and give you a more interesting range of work.

Just my thoughts though.
Iain

Honestly, I'm in a right to work state. I could get let go for not punching out for a lunch. But you are right it is a risk.

Not able to work with the Network Engineer. Different cities. I've ask numerous times for some kind of interfacing with him but deaf ears.

I already got a handful of certs now that touch in different areas thanks to WGU. . However my certs are going to waste if I don't use them. I already feel my CCNA is getting dusty since I'm only able read only to switches here, even as a L2.

I agree on all the other points of being spread out on areas. Easier to get hits back on resume if a company has different areas they need to cover.

Thanks for the input!

leboratorical wrote: »

I'm not in the same field, so it may be different, but there are some strikes against the new company that you may want to have a chat with them about and consider:
1: Is there any leeway for negotiation?
2: What does the feel of the company tell you, as well as the LinkedIn profiles? Are the engineers in the company getting promotions? If not, then what is the likelihood that you will, if they're all with the company for so long? What is the general culture of the company like for you?
3: If you weren't looking for a job beforehand, then why would you jump for less money, less interesting work potentially and a lower tier?
4: Since you are a lot better at identifying what's missing, then why not look for a job that fits those requirements instead of letting the (sometimes good) companies come to you?

I'm not saying that you definitely shouldn't go for it, because it sounds like you're excited, but the only thing it sounds like it has going for it is that there are more people and it is a bigger place. It sounds like you've learned a lot more from being on your own in your current company because you've had to.

Either way, good luck!

1. Already on it lol. Sent a counter to see if any lead way was possible. I asked if they could get closer to my base pay and I was willing to forfeit sign on bonus.
2. Yes! Def. One I interviewed with was only at his prior position for 8 months. I seen a lot of people able to move to different teams and upwards in company.
3. The work is actually more interesting to me in other place. I work in a non traditional NOC now. Its mostly just monitoring/fixing our stuff. Other company does more military/government area providing a service which could also lead to getting security clearance.
4. Actually this job does meet them. Only thing lacking I felt was the pay. I wanted to gauge what people thought was too much to them. I took a 5k pay cut to get the job I have now cause I felt it could to something bigger. And it did when I got L2 since pay is now more than I made prior.

I appreciate the time for input!

TechGromit

skswitch wrote: »

Recently I was approach by a recruiter from a company about a position that was similar to mine.

Well the first thing I think of when I hear the word recruiter, is staffing agency. if this a full time employee position or you working for a vendor providing services to a client?

While I agree a pay cut sucks, sometimes you need to take a step back, to take a step forward. Also remember setting the salary is a negotiation, I would counter for more money, THEY after all came to you, you didn't seek them out. If you don't get the job, it's not like you will not be able to make next months rent. Id counter with 65k, if they come close to that, take it.

brewboy

I'm with UncleB. I don't think it's a good move to demote yourself and for less pay. If you got this job without looking I imagine you could do a lot better if you cast a wider net. Try to go for jobs that clearly move you up and towards your career goals

Danielm7

I think when you're trying to make a drastic change to a different specialty then a small step down can make sense for a lot upward potential, I did it. But, you're in the same field, taking a demotion in title and pay for the chance to maybe move upward. I'd pass and interview elsewhere, you said you already took a pay cut for your current job, don't want to make a habit of trending downward.

skswitch

TechGromit wrote: »

Well the first thing I think of when I hear the word recruiter, is staffing agency. if this a full time employee position or you working for a vendor providing services to a client?

While I agree a pay cut sucks, sometimes you need to take a step back, to take a step forward. Also remember setting the salary is a negotiation, I would counter for more money, THEY after all came to you, you didn't seek them out. If you don't get the job, it's not like you will not be able to make next months rent. Id counter with 65k, if they come close to that, take it.

It was a recruiter from the company. That actually almost made me miss the job I have now cause I seen word recruiter and dismissed it.

I asked them to get closer to my base pay now and waiting to see if anything happens from that. You are right though. Its nicer to job search while you already have a job.

Danielm7 wrote: »

I think when you're trying to make a drastic change to a different specialty then a small step down can make sense for a lot upward potential, I did it. But, you're in the same field, taking a demotion in title and pay for the chance to maybe move upward. I'd pass and interview elsewhere, you said you already took a pay cut for your current job, don't want to make a habit of trending downward.

Last pay cut was going 60k salary with no perks to to 55k with 10% bonus. In a year I went from that 55k to 65k with 10% bonus. So little set back to now making over 70k with bonus. I know I wouldn't of gotten anything out of other place then 2-3% tops. Of course I don't want to make it into a habit but the pay cut could lead me to something I want faster.

It's in the same field but with a bigger network. WAYYY bigger. More hands on and being around people that are more into what I want to learn. I feel that helps accelerate a career when you surround yourself with smarter people.

volfkhat

Great thread!

but Gonna have to disagree a bit :]

SO let me get this straight:
You have asked for Mentoring... but no luck.
Instead, they gave you more $$$ and a new Position(?).
BUT... unfortunately, you are NOT getting more exposure to more technologies.
Is that about right?

How long have you been there?
It sounds like..... it may be time to move on (regardless).
You have apparently hit the knowledge ceiling.

~My initial question is.... Why haven't you been looking already?
:]


~if the new job was offering 65k.... what would you say then?

~How does the commute compare?

~ Health insurance?

~ Spouse? Kids?

Lastly,
Are you working for a third-party (contractor/middle-man) for the new company? Or are they bringing you in as a DIRECT employee?

Bottom line:
I would counter with the new company. Figure out, and then Give them your "minimum" salary requirement.
Ask them if any of their current L2s were promoted from within. If so, how long did it take?
(Going from a L2 down to L1 is Backwards; but if you aren't learning much currently... are you really a L2?)

See what they say.
If they won't budge.... then move on, i guess.
(but it's still time fore you to look for new opportunities)


Edit:
For what it's worth, i quit my Sysadmin gig last june. i took the summer off. (same reason as you; wasn't using my ccna)
In the fall, i started at a Noc (L1). 10k paycut... but the knowledge-gain has been good.
Glad i took the risk :]

skswitch

volfkhat wrote: »

Great thread!

but Gonna have to disagree a bit :]

SO let me get this straight:
You have asked for Mentoring... but no luck.
Instead, they gave you more $$$ and a new Position(?).
BUT... unfortunately, you are NOT getting more exposure to more technologies.
Is that about right?

How long have you been there?
It sounds like..... it may be time to move on (regardless).
You have apparently hit the knowledge ceiling.

~My initial question is.... Why haven't you been looking already?
:]


~if the new job was offering 65k.... what would you say then?

~How does the commute compare?

~ Health insurance?

~ Spouse? Kids?

Lastly,
Are you working for a third-party (contractor/middle-man) for the new company? Or are they bringing you in as a DIRECT employee?

Bottom line:
I would counter with the new company. Figure out, and then Give them your "minimum" salary requirement.
Ask them if any of their current L2s were promoted from within. If so, how long did it take?
(Going from a L2 down to L1 is Backwards; but if you aren't learning much currently... are you really a L2?)

See what they say.
If they won't budge.... then move on, i guess.
(but it's still time fore you to look for new opportunities)


Edit:
For what it's worth, i quit my Sysadmin gig last june. i took the summer off. (same reason as you; wasn't using my ccna)
In the fall, i started at a Noc (L1). 10k paycut... but the knowledge-gain has been good.
Glad i took the risk :]

First part. Pretty much nailed it.

Been year for right at a year this month. Promotion was two months ago. (It took that long for it to go through...) I was doing L2 work even before I got the title cause I showed interest. Was only L1 that was allowed to work alone cause I could handle it. Knowledge ceiling is close and I feel the boredom coming on.

Wasn't looking exactly cause I didn't have a need yet to do another change.

If they offered 65k of the bat? This thread wouldn't even exist lol.

Commute is 30 mins compared to 45 mins. Doesn't mean much to me. Still no interstate or toll roads. Heck I use to drive 1hr 1/2 one way.

My son.
Medical is very similar.
PTO is four weeks here starting / Unlimited other company.
401k matching is better here 4% base without matching and another 3% matching. Its 6% at other place.

Both are full time.

HA! I actually just did that. Last job was a System Admin position but I favored network side more and jumped to here.

GSXR750K2

I'm in a very similar boat and have wrestled with this topic at length. In my personal situation, I would do it and in fact I'm trying to do it now.

I'm 34 and am at 90k base to basically babysit a few Hyper-V clusters (about 65 VMs total) and do some PowerShell scripting when it's needed. My job is incredibly mundane, unchallenging, and doesn't have really any upward mobility. We have good benefits, my boss doesn't mind if we come and go for personal errands, and we have a 6% 401k match that is 100% vested at day one. However, my area is made up of mostly small businesses, aside from a couple of freight companies and hospitals, so the exposure to emerging technologies or technologies found in larger areas on any appreciable scale is almost non-existent. Heck, I've decided to let my Cisco certs expire next Friday because I never have a need for them at work or when doing consulting (so there's little practice to be had), and there's not much use for my MCSE where I am. My co-workers don't really stay up on current technology, so I kind of keep to myself since discussions of things like Software Defined Networking don't go very far. I realize I'm quite fortunate, and I don't mean to sound ungrateful, but for me the pay isn't worth the low satisfaction.

My situation is pretty much my own fault...I should have jumped ship and relocated a long time ago like the rest of my friends. I've found many companies and recruiters are suspicious of someone willing to take a cut in pay by a third, but I'm more than happy to part with the money to move for a job where I can be exposed to new challenges and feel like a team member rather than an employee of a department.

In my case, it's a no brainer...if the position is right. For you, decide what you think is best for yourself/your family , and do it.

TechGromit

skswitch wrote: »

Been year for right at a year this month. Promotion was two months ago.

HUH? You only been with the company a year, your bored and looking for change jobs already? This is something you didn't mention before. This has been discussed in another forum before, when you start getting into the upper levels of technical positions, employers look for STABILITY, not someone job jumping every year. No employer is going to give you a tier 3 enterprise level network engineer position when your job jumping every year or two. They want people that are going to stick around at least 5 years or more.

DatabaseHead

I think you stay put unless your company is doing some goofy things, like having a bunch of closed door meetings etc...

volfkhat

TechGromit wrote: »

HUH? You only been with the company a year, your bored and looking for change jobs already? This is something you didn't mention before.

TG, WHat are you talking about :]

The OP's thread starts with:
"Recently I was approach by a recruiter from a company about a position that was similar to mine. I wasn't openly looking but wanted to see what they had to offer. Best jobs are usually when you aren't looking."

This was one of those rare situations where Opportunity comes Knocking on your Door :]

OP is wondering if he should consider taking a paycut in order to gain better EXP:
"However my certs are going to waste if I don't use them. I already feel my CCNA is getting dusty since I'm only able read only to switches here, even as a L2."

In addition, OP has already asked for more hands-on EXP with the Sr Network Eng... but they have been sLoW tO rEsPoNd.

So... i see two possible options:
STay- and build up the "Im a STABLE person EXP" that so many people like to see on a Resume.

or,
LEAVE- and go get some REAL EXP working with actual technology.

Imo, it's a valid conundrum...

GSXR750K2

DatabaseHead wrote: »

I think you stay put unless your company is doing some goofy things, like having a bunch of closed door meetings etc...

This another reason I'm ramping up my search. We've been under an audit for over a year, and since January 1st the jets have been used a lot for meetings with the auditing firm...and no one aside from the top brass knows what's going on.

Trucido

I'm no professional negotiator or anything, but I would point out all of the negatives to the recruiter you're working with and see if they're willing to offer a more competitive pay rate.

You: "Hey I am Level 2 NOC right now making ~71k/yr"
Recruiter: "Yeah, this position is for Level 1 NOC, the company is looking to hire FTE within 6 months-1 yr, and after then *promises promises aka lies*"
You: "Well, I would be much more comfortable joining the team if the pay rate was competitive. If you can get me ~65k/yr you have yourself a loyal hardworking employee!"


If they aren't willing to work with you, they are expecting you to be their slave and they are not worth your time. If you attempt negotiations similar to above and get no budging, simply say something to the effect; "Alright, thank you for your time, good luck finding a qualified candidate for the position."

PeroPeric

I'd never take on a more challenging job to gain more experience and accept a pay cut. Never. There are good reasons to take a pay cut, but getting more experience is not one of them. If you hate what you do and people around you, and you have a feeling you will love your work more and people at new company then maybe go for it.

There are many ways to keep your skills updated and to keep growing. If you are unchallenged and willing to take a pay cut, use that money to invest in some kind of education and build your own lab.

powerfool

It's all about the long game, but I have never taken lower compensation while I was already employed. I would see if they would budge on the salary, and maybe even bump you to an L2 position, already. You don't "need" the job, so be a tough negotiator. Ask them to match your current compensation plus the sign on bonus, if not an increase.

NOC-Ninja

I will never take a pay cut. If they want you, they will pay you more. I dont see the point of going to L2 to L1.
Sounds like they downgrade you after your interview.

My suggestion is that use your time to study and get more certs. A lot of engineers refuse to teach other people because nobody shadowed them when they were doing it. Some dont have time to shadow.

kurosaki00

I took a paycut early in my career. I moved though and the previous job had a lot of proprietary tools n **** that did not translated to much outside.
However, the NOC job I accepted had much more better technologies n stuff.

Pay cut + lower position... err, Maybe get some more certs and Go for something better?
I don't get the career mindset of people. I would freaking go for picking up trash if it meant $150k a year or switch to real estate in a blink of an eye if it involved a good raise.

In the end in life you want money and time, that's it. Not a good career. Get money, invest, buy properties, create passive income, work less and get paid more.

networker050184

I'd take a $10k pay cut for a job I wanted for sure. Unless you are in a dire financial situation and can't live without it of course.

p@r0tuXus

I just want to say, I don't know you OP or your company / management, let alone the prospective employer. That being said, let me give you my apologies first if I offend you, it's not my intention. I will give my honest appraisal and suggestion:

You have a year of experience and your CCNA. Great for breaking ground and getting your foot in the door. I don't know what your actual capabilities are, but if all you're working with right now is show commands on switches as a L2, you're going to stagnate and lose your own competitive edge with the knowledge you've gained. It'll atrophe and even with stability, trying to move to another place that does more than switches will be more difficult for you. I get the impression your prospective employer met with you and they decided with your current role & experience, that you might not be a strong employee for some of the technologies they have. Not that they don't want to see you in that role, but you'll have to earn it by rising through their ranks. They pay-cut may be a test, trying to see how hungry you are and if you're willing to wow them after you start. If you think you can do it, you may be able to move up within another year to a L2 making the money you want. At least you know one thing for certain, your experience and knowledge will expand in practical application at this new employer's business and it won't where you are now. You're hungry, so feed that beast and the rest will follow.

skswitch

TechGromit wrote: »

HUH? You only been with the company a year, your bored and looking for change jobs already? This is something you didn't mention before. This has been discussed in another forum before, when you start getting into the upper levels of technical positions, employers look for STABILITY, not someone job jumping every year. No employer is going to give you a tier 3 enterprise level network engineer position when your job jumping every year or two. They want people that are going to stick around at least 5 years or more.

I see your point and it is valid. There is another thread going about this same issue about staying at one company vs job hopping. There was some good insight on either point and success with both routes. Threw in my two cents about as long as there is progressive then it shouldn't be an issue. With this position, it is more of a lateral move but with bigger company/network. However, it really all depends on the person opinion interviewing you at next position.

p@r0tuXus wrote: »

I just want to say, I don't know you OP or your company / management, let alone the prospective employer. That being said, let me give you my apologies first if I offend you, it's not my intention. I will give my honest appraisal and suggestion:

You have a year of experience and your CCNA. Great for breaking ground and getting your foot in the door. I don't know what your actual capabilities are, but if all you're working with right now is show commands on switches as a L2, you're going to stagnate and lose your own competitive edge with the knowledge you've gained. It'll atrophe and even with stability, trying to move to another place that does more than switches will be more difficult for you. I get the impression your prospective employer met with you and they decided with your current role & experience, that you might not be a strong employee for some of the technologies they have. Not that they don't want to see you in that role, but you'll have to earn it by rising through their ranks. They pay-cut may be a test, trying to see how hungry you are and if you're willing to wow them after you start. If you think you can do it, you may be able to move up within another year to a L2 making the money you want. At least you know one thing for certain, your experience and knowledge will expand in practical application at this new employer's business and it won't where you are now. You're hungry, so feed that beast and the rest will follow.

No apologies needed! Thank you for giving your opinion and input.

I actually completely agree on this. My fear is a stagnate position and getting too comfy. If this job is more difficult and I don't have the skills...yet. Good. Cause I will.

A level two position at this company may of been over my head to be honest. Actually it was. The original requirements were asking 6+yrs of routing protocols I just barely touched in CCNA. I just went for it to see what they would beat me up with. That way I would be better prepared of what I need to learn and know what to expect next time.

The interview with them though wasn't... very technical at all. Not on the aspect of "You have this issue what do you do" it was more getting background of what I've done before in the past and personality.

The lower offer could of been a test too. Just to see the response I give. If I accepted, they hey they got someone for cheap. Or they wanted to see what I would counter with. Update on that below!

*Update*

I got the return from my counter offer!!! Not only did they bump they salary to what I make now... they added another 3k for a sign on bonus!

My counter offer was short and sweet. I gave them reasons why I'm worth more based on past performance, promotions, years of exp and certs. Next, I gave the area I wanted to see the compensation and finished with how I was excited about the position and how I was going to add those skills to their team. Really only 3-4 sentences for anyone curious. I've only done a counter twice and both worked well. I wrote it few days before the original offer expired. They replied back that they got it and will update shortly. Almost two weeks went by and I reached out saying I was still very interested. Few days later, boom! That offer email.

UncleB

Nicely negotiated - congratulations!

Now, remember to make backups of any files at work you are likely to need for reference in the future (not intellectual property or passwords of course) such as how-to procedures and process flow diagrams, ideally in editable format so you can re-work them for the new employer if needed.

You may be "let go" very quickly if you have access to sensitive systems so I would do this before handing in your notice just to be on the safe side.

kurosaki00

Grats OP! Good job negotiating that and good luck with the new adventure.