A lesson on humility- advice for college students

Deus Ex Machina

Hey guys,

This is a post for people who may be new in their careers or thinking about getting into a new one, especially college students.

I recently had a conversation with a good friend of mine, an MIS student who graduated from my university last year. He was very stressed out that he was unable to find a job, even a 40 k a year job. He's a great kid, I know he isn't a trainwreck. I was very surprised to hear how hard of a time he was having. He then told me that his GPA is pretty low, well below a 3.5. He never really worried about his grades too much, as he had read everywhere online that the private sector has a huge shortage of IT guys, suggesting that he could find a job no matter what. He is only starting to realize now that much of those articles are deceptive click-bait and overly-generalizing the most complicated field in the US.

This is a lesson that too many people learn the hard way- coming out of college with a weak GPA, no certs, and no connections is a death sentence. Every reputable company in my state receives dozens to hundreds of applications, and the bigger ones receive thousands. If you do not have anything to stand out, you will perpetually be at the bottom of the resume pile. If you are not hungry for the job, there will always be someone hungrier who will work harder and take it instead of you. I'm not talking about grocery store/fast food jobs, I'm talking about the jobs that will give you a future. Everyone wants a bright future but very few want to work hard for it. It shouldn't take the prospect of being homeless for people to finally see reality but they lie to themselves until the moment of truth arrives and there are no jobs waiting for them.

I see this shadow of arrogance in many of my friends, and the thing that disheartens me the most is how seemingly universal it is.

No one I speak with, whether younger or older, seems to realize how competitive the job market is in general. They think that they can "wing it" with their B.S. in Psychology/Marketing/Journalism/ etc. and that they will be able to reach their dreams without doing anything else to differentiate themselves. I've seen the same story play out more than 20 times in the past couple years.

If you're a college student and you have ambition, do not betray yourself now by being lazy. These 4 years in college will set the stage for your career and, by extension, your life. Hard work now pays fantastic dividends in the future. Conversely, laziness carries severe punishments that will plague you upon graduation.

Don't be another unemployed grad. Work hard so you can have options later.

volfkhat

Perhaps.
I'm sure that a 3.5 GPA is better than a 2.5...

but i never had to submit my GPA to get an I.T. job.
(if they wanted my transcript; it was only to verify the Degree itself)

The current Director at my job was working at Geeksquad (less than a decade ago).

Sure, working hard, matters.

But i no longer feel college is the "end all, be all" that people claim...

Deus Ex Machina

Yeah its not like you can just coast by after college. I'm just saying that having some respectable credentials at that point in your life is what really launches you off in one direction or the other.

Fulcrum45

I'm rather far from being a millennial but through observation I've noticed that raw talent seems to be respected more than hard work. Many of the younger folks fail to realize that raw talent will only carry you so far. I worked with a kid who I liked a lot. Funny as hell, had a great personality but his work ethic sucked. Moreover he felt that if he could **** his way through a problem then that just meant he was working smarter, not harder. I know he doesn't represent all people in his age range nor does that make him a bad person either but it's disheartening when you know there are more where he came from.

GirlyGirl

volfkhat wrote: »

Perhaps.
I'm sure that a 3.5 GPA is better than a 2.5...

but i never had to submit my GPA to get an I.T. job.
(if they wanted my transcript; it was only to verify the Degree itself)

The current Director at my job was working at Geeksquad (less than a decade ago).

Sure, working hard, matters.

But i no longer feel college is the "end all, be all" that people claim...

Concur...

TechGuru80

Deus Ex Machina wrote: »

1.) even a 40 k a year job.

2.) He then told me that his GPA is pretty low, well below a 3.5.

1.) You will be lucky to get $40k out of school...expect pay to be $20-30k for most jobs not just in IT, and don't start asking for insane numbers without experience...not just internships. Also realize you probably are going to start at help desk.

2.) 3.5 means nothing first of all. In most cases, listing your GPA is worthless and I would avoid doing so because most people don't really care, they just care if you have the degree.

Ultimately if you can get a few certifications during school it will help. If you are a traditional student graduating around 22-24ish it won't be that big of a deal if you don't, but if you are an older student you better be getting certs to help make up some ground.

Deus Ex Machina

Expect 20-30k with a bachelors degree? I'd like to see a source on that one.

TechGuru80

Deus Ex Machina wrote: »

Expect 20-30k with a bachelors degree? I'd like to see a source on that one.

The idea is to not expect insane numbers (maybe $25-35k is more accurate...something like $15 per hour)...of course it depends on the major...CS and engineering based disciplines will command more...but if you think as a traditional college student that you will come out making $40-50k with no experience and in normal cost of living scenarios then good luck! The source is experience in large corporations (10,000+ employees) and seeing consistently people with experience that just got their degrees in the $40-50k range. I think you are kidding yourself if you think a help desk position is going to pay large sums of money.

PC509

There's that old "Building your Brand" thing that seems relevant. You're selling yourself, make it something that others would buy into. College grads are a dime a dozen. Be more than a college grad. Make those connections, have a few certs, have some experience (intern, volunteer, etc.).

Be the right person for the job. Don't just be a college grad.

Danielm7

Agree with the others, I don't really care about GPA at all while hiring people. The difference between someone who gets a 3.0 and a 3.9 in college could also involve the lower GPA person with 2 jobs, a family, harder classes and the higher GPA person sitting at their parents house and only studying all day. Obviously it can also be 1000 other possibilities, but it's not really a concern to me. Congrats, you passed, now talk to me about what you can do, how your mind works and what you're looking for.

It's unfortunate that a lot of people are born into a time when their parents might have gotten any degree and were instantly headhunted into lifelong careers, pension, etc, the world is different now. It'll take you all of 5 mins reading to figure that out, but a lot of people just blindly listen to their parents' advice and still assume any degree, and nothing else, will instantly translate to a safe and comfortable lifestyle.

TheFORCE

I finished college with 2.0 gpa. Was working full-time at the same time at a job that was paying 40k and with OT i was hitting 55k. This was 10 years ago.

Deus Ex Machina

One thing that surprised me from this thread has been the general rejection of the value of the GPA. I'm starting to understand the thought process though.

I think PC509 said it best- You gotta build your "brand". A strong GPA helps you build a certain type of brand (focused, sharp, takes the field seriously), but there are other brands that do not require the GPA (emphasis on experience, relevant skills, etc.).

Young people (i.e. college students in their early 20's) are at a natural disadvantage in the experience department. It would be best to have good grades/connections/ and experience at the same time obviously, but trying to compete on an experience level with 30+ year olds when you're 21 is really hard. And fighting an experience battle that you cannot win can paradoxically trap you into never getting experience because no one will hire you. That's what makes getting the first job in anything such a struggle. That's all I was trying to say- you need to have something to help you stand out from the pack, especially if you're a young person. Jumping into the job market with nothing but a degree is pretty brutal and I've seen too many of my friends run right into a brick wall for it. The GPA is one of many weapons that can give you something to work with.

volfkhat

Deus Ex Machina wrote: »

One thing that surprised me from this thread has been the general rejection of the value of the GPA. I'm starting to understand the thought process though.

Well... I don't think that i/we reject the value of a good GPA.
Rather, you seem to over-value a good GPA.
(but i still agree with your overall point)

TheFORCE wrote: »

I finished college with 2.0 gpa. Was working full-time at the same time at a job that was paying 40k and with OT i was hitting 55k. This was 10 years ago.

ha! Reminds me of what an Elder once told me:
"C" = Degree
:]

dhay13

When my son was applying for colleges the dean of his program said he generally prefers students with a lower GPA in the 3's. His thought was that usually those that get the 4.0s were sitting in mom and dads house with no other responsibilities and weren't prepared for the real world when they graduated. My son must have took that to heart as he ended up graduating from that program with a 3.2...lol.

Along those lines, when I was in law enforcement I was told to never shoot a perfect score. If you did and you ever had the unfortunate circumstance where you were forced to fire your weapon then the attorneys would tear you apart asking if you were such a perfect shot why couldn't you shoot him in the knee or something. Not realistic but only one juror needs to think hmmmmm. I heard of a few that had perfect scores going into their last shot then missed on purpose.

DatabaseHead

From my perspective IT has a lower initial starting wage than business majors (jobs).

Our financial analyst (finance degree or comparable with no experience) get ~50,000 up too 55,000 if you are willing to hard bargain. Unless you are from the software development domain I don't see a lot of new grads getting brought on at that salary sometimes not at all. With that said....... After a couple of contracts they can get a nice career going.

jelevated

My overall GPA was a bit lower as I was working internships over the entire year and getting certificates at the same time.

Best decision I ever made. If I were hiring I'd take a 3.5 or heck even a 3.0 kid with serious internship experience over a 4.0 superstar who never left campus.

Obviously there are a lot of folks out there who have high GPA and good EXP that you have to compete with.

EANx

As a hiring manager, a higher GPA is always more important to me for a fresh-out-of-college person. If someone says they got a 3.2, I don't know if they were working three jobs or goofing off in mommy's basement. At least with a higher GPA, I know they got better grades. Without the additional context, better GPA = better chance of getting the job.

UncleB

I agree with the general consensus given here - a GPA is a score from an academic measuring process and only reflects how well the person was able to perform against the measuring processes used. It gives no indication of the real world ability or circumstances the person lives within and is easily overshadowed by the benefit of work experience.

As a hiring manager I see dozens of candidates a year for entry level positions and often for apprenticeships so have developed a mechanism to assess people with no real skills and just an over inflated idea of their value based on the idea sold to them about grades being all important.

Psychology is the key to assessing these candidates and I am happy to see someone with no real skills and put them through a role play interview to see how they deal with real world situations and how they handle the unexpected. Also seeing their thought processes behind how they have tried to make themselves marketable and making them explain to me why I should hire them is revealing.

There are invariable some who can't take it and I've had tears, threats and attempts at bribes over the years by these candidates, but this process is all about filtering out the ones who are so unsuited to the real world. The ones that make it I will invest significant amounts of time and company money in developing and nurturing into even better resources for the company and also for their own future.

If there is any advice I would give to candidates out there it is to get out and volunteer in a work place somewhere - it can be at a charity, at someones office or as a care giver. It demonstrates a willingness to do what it takes to get the experience and often this will be uncomfortable and hard with little reward, but it builds character through experience of how hard the real world can be.

Give me an entry level person with this sort of attitude and I won't hesitate to give them a chance as an apprentice and teach them what they need to know to do the job and give them the tools to develop themselves to something beyond what I can offer them, then over time I will help them move on to better things even if it is not with the same company. That is what faith and reward are about in my book.

One thing I really dislike is kids who come in with a high grade in some subject and think it means I will hire them just because of it - entitlement is a huge turn off if not backed by life skills.

Just the ramblings of a grumpy old man ...

volfkhat

UncleB, with his socialist agenda...
lol

:]

Verities

I started thinking about all the useless college degrees and found this list:

Worst College Majors - Conservapedia

Not sure what kind of career people are hoping to make out of majoring in Communications (what does that even mean), LGBT Studies, and Women's Studies. I guess getting into $58k worth of debt is worth it though.

Deus Ex Machina

lol that's a pretty funny list. Puppetry? Really?

mzx380

I think OP definitely has a point about the majority of his post. Newly minted graduates need to temper expectations about what they will get (if anything) for their first job. However, your GPA should be a reflection of your own merit and not a selling point of your application unless you are attending an Ivy.

JoJoCal19

Verities wrote: »

I started thinking about all the useless college degrees and found this list:

Worst College Majors - Conservapedia

Not sure what kind of career people are hoping to make out of majoring in Communications (what does that even mean), LGBT Studies, and Women's Studies. I guess getting into $58k worth of debt is worth it though.

So basically anything outside of STEM/Medicine/Law lol.

sillymcnasty

Generally agree but -1 on the GPA. That part is just silly. Never been asked what my GPA was in college, and I don't even know if you want to be "that guy" that boasts about GPA.

Fulcrum45

Deus Ex Machina wrote: »

lol that's a pretty funny list. Puppetry? Really?

Why you gotta crack?

soletek

A job will depend on your location heavily. But there is no excuse for someone with a bachelors in IT to not have any cert, thats just lazy to be honest. But in college this guy failed to establish a network, do an internship( could have hired him), check out the career center or speak to his teachers on this. My location suck so I had to relocate in the end. But at the least I had people helping me with finding a job and those secret openings. Also my old instructor wanted to use a contact to get me on with Cisco. It was job but it wasn't directly support so I decline. I relocated and found a job within 2 months. In IT there is always the big 3 which consist of certs, education and experience.

jelevated

hanging around these forums for a while skewed my vision, I surely thought when I started reviewing resumes that everyone would have atleast 5-10 certs. You would think there are MCSE , CISSP, Triple CCIEs within a stones throw of you at all times.

Nope.

Certs are still rare. Many people just don't see the value in getting them. Thats ok, in some cases it makes it easy to thin the herd. not all, there is no professional certification for software engineering, for instance...Well there are language specific ones but not nearly as popular as the technology driven ones we have here.

AvgITGeek

Just to throw my 2 cents in. We're currently looking for a paid intern through local colleges and have gotten 30+ applications... the phone interviews have started and the owner is less than impressed with the first two people he interviewed. Both were expecting to get handed the position straight away. Both had almost no interpersonal skills at all. Maybe instead of bitching about how the system is rigged, learn how to talk to people and not expect things to be handed to you.

Iristheangel

Not to devalue GPAs or anything, they can help you with getting/keeping scholarships and grants, get into good grad schools, and, if nothing else, be a general gauge of how well you excelled at a particular course. Outside of those things, I've never been asked for my GPA by an employer before and I doubt most of them care about it.

I think degrees are nice things to have and helps you be competitive in a job market but it's not a guarantee for a job just like a certification isn't a guarantee. Back in 2008/2009, I came to this forum looking for basic certification advice and ended up soaking up a lot of career advice from veterans on this forum. I would like to think a lot of the lessons learned helped me make some of the smarter moves I've made and to take better risks along the way thanks to this forum. It's also why I later wrote this big long post instead of regurgitating a lot of the same points post-by-post.

Some people have mentioned that college students or newbies they've met had an air of entitlement that if they have X degree and X GPA, that equals a guarantee win for a job. Heck... we've seen it so many times on this forum. Look at the IT Jobs/Degrees forum and see how many posts you can find where someone asks what degree/cert/etc they need to make X amount of dollars or if they get X certification does that mean they will get hired. Or how many times have we seen people post here saying that the IT job market is dead in <insert-crazy-good-IT-market-city> because they can't *personally* find a job or get a second interview with anyone. It's because to some degree, people are taught that there's a set of requirement you need to meet and you should get a job. It takes some good advice and good listening skills to understand that it's not that simple.

My advice to grads is: Don't stop learning and improving. Important things that will improve your odds:
- Cert up
- Make sure your hygiene is good (no amount of certs and experience is going to make anyone want to hire someone who stanks)
- Make sure you're dressed like an adult
- Volunteer if you can't get professional experience
- Always improve your resume. Peer review, get critiques, etc
- Role play interviewing with friends and peers. You can be a rockstar and still not get the job because you clench up during interviews or don't know proper etiquette like not talking poorly about your previous job or boss during the interview
- Join both online and irl networking groups, conferences, etc. Get your name out there
- Build your brand. Blog, make videos, help people out online, etc. Find something you enjoy doing that involves the field you are in and getting your name out there in the community and do it for fun or on the side.

Alright, back to CCIE labbing for me. Peace out, folks.

volfkhat

Iristheangel wrote: »

It's because to some degree, people are taught that there's a set of requirements you need to meet and you should get a job.
It takes some good advice and good listening skills to understand that it's not that simple.

and there it is.

Some of us like to rag on millennials....
but we forget that they're just kids, who were sold a Bill of Goods, on the Importance of a College Degree.

I was taught the same thing; except i graduated back in the 90's.
and the cost of a credit-hour was not DOUBLE what it is today.

Millennials certainly need to "wise up"..... but so do some of us "grown folk".
We have to understand who's really to blame here...