New York to offer free college tuition to families making less than 125k

TheFORCE

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2017/04/08/new-york-state-reaches-deal-provide-free-tuition-suny-and-cuny-students

Although this is good news for those wanting to get a degree, how do you think this will affect the industries requiring degrees? Do you think that salaries will drop because of more qualified people?

gespenstern

Bad news, actually.

Everything that is "free" isn't actually free.

OfWolfAndMan

There's a couple factors that must be inspected. One being the rise in state taxes or wherever they could possibly cut corners. Whatever they cut from everyone will complain about how it was cut, not even realizing their advocacy for programs such as this are the reason it was cut in the first place. Understand my offense is not against free college education, but against those who are completely oblivious to the balances required to support this funding, which includes cutting things elsewhere that they sometimes negatively react to, without understanding the implications of their own action could've potentially been a primary cause. Money doesn't grow on trees. As for demand, companies could justify this as pay cuts due to an increase in those with a degree coming in tends to be of a greater number, or at least that is the assumption. Also, I think you might have a decrease in attendance from those paying, as they see a college that provides subsidized funds for those less fortunate as a degradation to their potential respect of a company for a college that offers "free" college. Meaning they could move out of state, and probably will look for somewhere that they can justify non-resident costs. Because of this though, they may justify just staying in-state. It all depends on their individual mindset, but most importantly the demographic.

chrisone

Free stuff in NY? Hahahaha nothing is free

NetworkNewb

I think they should add in the requirement that the student must have had something like a 3.8 GPA throughout high school to qualify for this. Not just every random person deserves free college.

volfkhat

[Soapbox]
The system is corrupted.

Nowadays, most employers want you to have a Bachelors degree.

This means that Colleges/Universities have gained leverage (since they provide the product).

Year after year, They Raise the cost of the product.

People can't afford/keep up with the increases.

The Government tries to subsidize via federal Aid; which helps initially.

But this has an unintended impact; The Colleges/Universities raise their costs even higher.

A Cycle is born.

And let's not forget Wall Street which is the #1 provider of Student Loans; aka Indentured Servitude.

And also not forget the lobbyists who changed the Bankruptcy Laws in this country so that STudent Debt became non-dischargable.

[/soapbox]

We need to Break the Cycle of the 4-year degree.

We need to Build-up Community Colleges, Trade and Vocational schools.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_education_system)

Think about,
Do you expect the mechanic who works on your car to have a Degree in Mechanical Engineering?
Or your local plumber to have a degree in Fluid Dynamics?

Then why do we demand that people have a Degree to be a Desktop technician?


The system is corrupted.
But i doubt that things will change...

the Powers that Be demand their Indentured Servants...

JockVSJock

Exactly.

Economics teaches a term called "Opportunity Costs." To get something, you give up something.

Don't get me started on the scam of American College...aka the College Industrial Complex.

EnderWiggin

Sure, having more people with a degree will lessen the overall value of the degree in a competitive market.

But having a more educated population is how societies advance. This is a great step for moving forward.

Iristheangel

I think it's a good thing overall. More education will not hurt this society as a whole.

It is true that nothing is "free" completely, but I'd rather have my tax dollars pay for someone who probably couldn't afford an education without a lot of debt to get a modest education than for it to go towards for-profit college loans that were defaulted because the poor smuck got conned or over-promised what they could get with their <insert-for-profit-college-name> degree and took out tens of thousands in loans they couldn't pay back.

I actually like the fact that it requires people to stay in the state for as long as they received support as well. This helps give back tax dollars that made it happen and if you get free college/costly certs/etc through an employer, it's not uncommon for them to require you to stay X amount of years if they're paying it. You're just making this agreement with the state instead of your employer.

bhcs2014

More government waste. More taking from the productive and giving to the unproductive. This is all about buying votes. Stuff like this doesn't make a more educated society, it makes a more government educated society (less educated). We live in a day and age where information can be virtually freely had from free market non-biased sources. Anyone can be as educated as they want to be.

From a technology employer perspective this will lower the value of degrees and increase the value of certifications and experience.

For the industries that require degrees (IT doesn't and most don't) I suppose it will make it more difficult to get a job and salaries might lower.

Iristheangel

Not sure someone seeking an education would be considered unproductive. Everyone finds themselves in different situations in life. They might have a family to support, bad credit due to a former spouse messing it up, or even forced to be a single parent later in life and back in the workplace after not working for decades. These kind of programs aren't "wasteful" for them. They're life changing and I'd rather see my tax dollars go to this than a lot of other programs that benefit absolutely no one except maybe lobbyists.

Also one thing to note, community college in my state was $11/unit when I was 18 years old. It's now $46/unit. Still INCREDIBLY cheap compared to the majority of states out there. Even with the cost being as low as it is, flexible schedules for classes, and the ability to do college part time, we still only have 29% of people with "some college" which is the average for the US as a whole. We do have a 20% rate of folks with Bachelor's degrees which is 10% higher than the US as a whole but the above low rate for college units only applies to community colleges, not public universities. We have a higher cost of living but we also have a higher median household income by 20% than the rest of the US. Our poverty rate is a tiny bit higher than the national average by less than 1%
Source: https://censusreporter.org/profiles/04000US06-california/

All that being said, I doubt just because free tuition is possible, everyone is going to pop up and get a 2 year degree. They still need to enroll full time and probably have a job during that time to make ends meet. That's not an easy thing to maintain for 2-4 years but if someone is willing to do it, more power to them.

Personal context: Been in shitty life situations myself and it took me a lot longer to get out of them. There were social programs that helped me in some really crappy points in my life and my family's life. I also worked 2 jobs to pay for certifications and to help me get where I am now. If I had kids, a spouse, etc, I might not have been able to have a schedule like that. I now make what I would call great money and I pay a lot of taxes for that income. I do believe in hard work but I know that health and family issues can prevent people from always following the same path as me and, honestly, it wasn't easy or physically sustainable working 2 full time jobs and I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

Iristheangel

Another point is that there's a huge skills gap in the IT field and people keep asking companies to train up workers so they don't have to get H1B workers who have the skills. This is a way to start investing and training those new IT folks locally instead of sourcing them from other countries. Also for displaced workers from jobs that have been automated, manufacturing workers, coal workers, etc, this is also a way to get an education and train up for a new career.

We can go back and forth on whether or not college vs trade school is a better choice in the long run but overall, this is a step in the right direction imho.

joelsfood

As someone who paid their own way through a private university to get my BS years back, I think this sounds great. Aof all the crap my taxes go to, providing education is the one I like the most (or complain about the least).

For those who are worried about this program lowering the value of their BS, the students still have to pass the classes to get the degree. So if the only thing differentiating you from them was having enough money to pay for a college education, maybe you should spend less time complaining about them and more time not sucking at your job. If your degree was your only shining point, that's your failing, not theirs. Quit worrying about other people and prove your value. Otherwise, why should employers waste their time on you anyway?

Priston

I think community colleges becoming free would be great. Universities maybe just reduced some in price. Considering the amount of people I know with a degree from a university who don't even use it, making universities free would be a waste of money. If your too poor to afford a university and not smart enough to get scholarships, community college might actually be a better choice.

volfkhat

bhcs2014 wrote: »

We live in a day and age where information can be virtually freely had from free market non-biased sources. Anyone can be as educated as they want to be.

This... i actually... agree with.
Assuming access to high-speed internet... you really do have options.
Youtube immediately comes to mind.
HarvardX is another example.
The list goes on and on.
The internet is definitely "bridging the divide" in that regard.

But where you argument falls apart, is with the obvious:
There's a difference between "being educated" (via self-study), versus "having a DEGREE" (via an institution of higher learning).

The current system is slanted: You can't get a decent job without a degree (hell, you can't even get an interview).
So, your argument... doesn't actually address the issue at hand.

bhcs2014 wrote: »

From a technology employer perspective this will lower the value of degrees and increase the value of certifications and experience.

Yeah... so.... what's your point?

You need to finish your argument; Please elaborate.

bhcs2014 wrote: »

For the industries that require degrees (IT doesn't and most don't) I suppose it will make it more difficult to get a job and salaries might lower.

Is that the rest of your argument?
if EVERYONE has a degree... then it's going to be more difficult for You to get your next job?

Have we finally arrived at the crux of the matter?

Iristheangel

@Volfhat - Too bad employers don't take us on merit of watching youtube videos alone, right? Imagine getting a doctor/nurse/lawyer/etc saying they were educated via youtube videos because information is "freely available."

@bhcs2014 - I also think you need to consider that while this is a tech forum, this program isn't just for folks seeking technical degrees. It also accounts for industries that absolutely do require a degree. I don't think you or anyone else with common sense would let a doctor or nurse near you with a sharp object if they didn't have any formal training. Same goes for many industries out there. It's not just the tech industry that has the shortage and if there's willing people to study and get a degree, good.

JockVSJock

If you want money for college, I know of five ways to get it: US Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines and Coast Guard.

Free education means someone has to pay. That cost is typically covered by higher taxes...so its not free. That cost is simply shifted somewhere else.

As someone who has unfortunately spent alot of time in public schools, either in K thru 12 along along with undergrad and grad school, where I paid my way thru while working full time and getting a scholarship here and there. I've also worked for a public school during the Y2K downturn, and I can tell you this: The education system in the USA only has the following goals: waste, fraud, abuse and making the 1% at the top very rich.

Don't fall for the old ruse that "its for the children." Its played out and doesn't work with me anymore.

New corruption scandal rattles Detroit Public Schools, but some call it a "distraction" | Michigan Radio

https://www.lewrockwell.com/2016/10/walter-e-williams/public-schools-produce-dumb-kids/

Sorry, my dear...it doesn't work that way.

Companies are not job core centers or don't do vocational training. Their only goal is to make a profit for the folks at the top and the share holders. That is it. Apple is an example of this. Tim Cook states in a round-about way that American's can't manfacture iPhone but they sure can pay $700 USD for one.

Tim Cook: Vocational training, not wages, often pushes Apple to overseas production | AL.com

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-11-23/an-american-made-iphone-not-happening

Iristheangel Another point is that there's a huge skills gap in the IT field and people keep asking companies to train up workers so they don't have to get H1B workers who have the skills. This is a way to start investing and training those new IT folks locally instead of sourcing them from other countries. Also for displaced workers from jobs that have been automated, manufacturing workers, coal workers, etc, this is also a way to get an education and train up for a new career

The US was the same country that successfully fought a two-front war during World War II and mobilized every able body to either shoot a machine gun, drive a tank or fly a plane. If you couldn't do that you worked in a factory producing ammo, bombs or tanks. I'm not sure what I'm missing here.

Get this...I'm all for education. My grandmother was a teacher and my wife's mother is a retired teacher. However the system is so broken and so corrupt and throwing more money at it isn't going to fix it.

For those who are paying attention, I've posted former educators, such as John Taylor Gatto and Marty Nemko, both well known, who are speaking out against the education system in the USA. Here they are again:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ww4m8GUK69E

JockVSJock

Iristheangel wrote: »

@Volfhat - Too bad employers don't take us on merit of watching youtube videos alone, right? Imagine getting a doctor/nurse/lawyer/etc saying they were educated via youtube videos because information is "freely available."

There maybe a day in the near future, where a defendant may win a case by representing themselves in court based on the knoledge they learned by watching youtube videos and reading whats available on the Internet.

If the Harvard Debate team gets beaten by a penal team:

This Is How A Prison's Debate Team Beat Harvard | The Huffington Post

What does that tell you?

bhcs2014

volfkhat wrote: »

The current system is slanted: You can't get a decent job without a degree (hell, you can't even get an interview).

That's false. Plenty of people on this forum myself included without degrees that have good IT jobs. Job Choices are more limited without a degree but saying you can't get a decent job isn't true.

volfkhat wrote: »

Yeah... so.... what's your point?

You need to finish your argument; Please elaborate.

My point is that it will lower the value of degrees. More people with degrees = degrees are less valuable to have. Any disagreement there?

@Iristheangel - If the information is the same does the source really matter? Either a person knows their stuff or they don't. Either they're competent or they are not.

The industries that require a degree do so because the government mandates that they do. It's illegal to practice medicine without a license so your argument there isn't valid. If it was legal for doctors to practice without medical degrees from government approved schools I wouldn't have a problem with it given the doctor had the proper level of knowledge and competence.

Also let's be real, a good portion if not the majority of people getting this "free" education would be getting degrees in the liberal arts and other mostly useless subjects.

Okay, that's all I have on this one. Tech forums probably not the best place to get into philosophy and free enterprise vs socialism debates

Iristheangel

JockVSJock wrote: »

Iristheangel wrote: »

@Volfhat - Too bad employers don't take us on merit of watching youtube videos alone, right? Imagine getting a doctor/nurse/lawyer/etc saying they were educated via youtube videos because information is "freely available."

There maybe a day in the near future, where a defendant may win a case by representing themselves in court based on the knoledge they learned by watching youtube videos and reading whats available on the Internet.

If the Harvard Debate team gets beaten by a penal team:

This Is How A Prison's Debate Team Beat Harvard | The Huffington Post

What does that tell you?

Let me know when you let someone perform surgery on you based on stuff they learned on the net and then we'll talk. If you're willing to let someone perform surgery on you without a formal education, cool beans. As far as your links, it tells me there's some skilled people out there but that's still not enough for any employer who has to be accountable to their clients to make a hiring decision on a lawyer/doctor/nurse/etc.

I'm well aware of your opinions about education for years now, JockVSJock. Your problem is with Comptia/college/etc/etc/etc.

As far as "nothing being for free," I'm well aware of that as well. If I had to think of something I'd rather have my tax dollars go to, I think giving people a chance to improve their lives and as part of that, having them stay in the state for a certain amount of time to pay back their dues in taxes is a smart way of doing it. It sure beats them defaulting on for-profit student loans and either us paying it via government school loans that default or private student loans that default and become a write-off for the corporation, or them being stuck in a situation where they have to rely on social programs for a longer period of time, or just generally holding back of social mobility for households that couldn't afford the cost otherwise of sending their kids to any sort of college.

Iristheangel

bhcs2014 wrote: »

That's false. Plenty of people on this forum myself included without degrees that have good IT jobs. Job Choices are more limited without a degree but saying you can't get a decent job isn't true.



My point is that it will lower the value of degrees. More people with degrees = degrees are less valuable to have. Any disagreement there?

@Iristheangel - If the information is the same does the source really matter? Either a person knows their stuff or they don't. Either they're competent or they are not.

The industries that require a degree do so because the government mandates that they do. It's illegal to practice medicine without a license so your argument there isn't valid. If it was legal for doctors to practice without medical degrees from government approved schools I wouldn't have a problem with it given the doctor had the proper level of knowledge and competence.

Also let's be real, a good portion if not the majority of people getting this "free" education would be getting degrees in the liberal arts and other mostly useless subjects.

Okay, that's all I have on this one. Tech forums probably not the best place to get into philosophy and free enterprise vs socialism debates

There's probably some requirements on formal education because going around cutting people open for a living without a license or people not able to verify that someone can actually be doing this surgery is a big problematic.

As far as majors, it's actually more likely that they'll be a Business Administration & Management major (180,000 grads yearly) or a Nursing major (155,000 yearly grads). Liberal Arts comes in third (140,000). Psychology (116,000), Biology (78,000), and Criminal Justice (72,000) come in after that.
Here you go: Top 10 Most Popular Majors in the U.S.

As far as you feeling threatened by all these people coming and taking your jobs or bringing the value of your degree down, why do you care if you think they're all going to be liberal arts degrees anyways? As Joel said, if you really have to justify your argument with worrying about how it's going to affect YOUR worth, you might need to readjust how you are proving your value to your employers.

As far as the straw man argument of us all turning into big socialists because we try to allow for some job training/education that may benefit society as a whole, yawn. 1933 called and they want their argument back.

dave330i

Another reason not to move to New York.

Iristheangel

bhcs2014 wrote: »

That's false. Plenty of people on this forum myself included without degrees that have good IT jobs. Job Choices are more limited without a degree but saying you can't get a decent job isn't true.

Umm... weren't you asking for help just late last year because you couldn't get past level 1 support? Here's your thread of going from Desktop Support to Tier 1 support and how you feel like this is a lateral move: http://www.techexams.net/forums/jobs-degrees/120666-new-job-msp.html

I do think people can make it without a degree but it's going to be a LOT harder unless you started out in IT awhile back. As you are finding out, entry level and lateral moves are definitely possible but moving up requires either a) someone taking a chance and giving you a LOT more experience (which is rare) and/or b) you supplementing that lack of education with another form of education (i.e. certs).

To be fair as well, this thread actually has the ability to help a tier 1 worker without a college degree in a lower tax bracket than it is to help someone like me who has a degree and paying 90K+ a year in taxes (mostly to the feds). That being said, I'm not one to think it's ok to let people float at the bottom just because I got mine already.

bhcs2014

Iristheangel wrote: »

There's probably some requirements on formal education because going around cutting people open for a living without a license or people not able to verify that someone can actually be doing this surgery is a big problematic.

As far as majors, it's actually more likely that they'll be a Business Administration & Management major (180,000 grads yearly) or a Nursing major (155,000 yearly grads). Liberal Arts comes in third (140,000). Psychology (116,000), Biology (78,000), and Criminal Justice (72,000) come in after that.
Here you go: Top 10 Most Popular Majors in the U.S.

As far as you feeling threatened by all these people coming and taking your jobs or bringing the value of your degree down, why do you care if you think they're all going to be liberal arts degrees anyways? As Joel said, if you really have to justify your argument with worrying about how it's going to affect YOUR worth, you might need to readjust how you are proving your value to your employers.

As far as the straw man argument of us all turning into big socialists because we try to allow for some job training/education that may benefit society as a whole, yawn. 1933 called and they want their argument back.

Too many misrepresentations I'm not worried or threatened at all. Just a little pissed about productive people's money being wasted on programs like this.

Iristheangel

bhcs2014 wrote: »

Too many misrepresentations I'm not worried or threatened at all. Just a little pissed about productive people's money being wasted on programs like this.

I guess it goes to your definition of waste. I'd rather teach someone to fish and feed them for a lifetime than continue to pay for their meals every day.

bhcs2014

Iristheangel wrote: »

I guess it goes to your definition of waste. I'd rather teach someone to fish and feed them for a lifetime than continue to pay for their meals every day.

Taxpayers shouldn't have to pay for liberal arts degrees. Make it a STEM program and maybe you have an argument.

Iristheangel wrote: »

Umm... weren't you asking for help just late last year because you couldn't get past level 1 support? Here's your thread of going from Desktop Support to Tier 1 support and how you feel like this is a lateral move: http://www.techexams.net/forums/jobs-degrees/120666-new-job-msp.html

I do think people can make it without a degree but it's going to be a LOT harder unless you started out in IT awhile back. As you are finding out, entry level and lateral moves are definitely possible but moving up requires either a) someone taking a chance and giving you a LOT more experience (which is rare) and/or b) you supplementing that lack of education with another form of education (i.e. certs).

To be fair as well, this thread actually has the ability to help a tier 1 worker without a college degree in a lower tax bracket than it is to help someone like me who has a degree and paying 90K+ a year in taxes (mostly to the feds). That being said, I'm not one to think it's ok to let people float at the bottom just because I got mine already.

I was almost immediately made level 2 and work on aws implementations, firewall installs, etc. Also got a big raise after 6 months. I'm in a good position considering I've only been doing this a few years. Better than some of my peers who went the college route and are in debt with no work experience. I'm no hypocrite.

You pay 90k in taxes because you are a hard-working genius. Not because of government education. Let's be real a lot of these people that get the free education just don't have the aptitude necessary to do the job.

Iristheangel

bhcs2014 wrote: »

Taxpayers shouldn't have to pay for liberal arts degrees. Make it a STEM program and maybe you have an argument.
I was almost immediately made level 2 and work on aws implementations, firewall installs, etc. Also got a big raise after 6 months. I'm in a good position considering I've only been doing this a few years. Better than some of my peers who went the college route and are in debt with no work experience. I'm no hypocrite.

Actually, we're more likely to pay for someone's Business Administration & Management degree or their Nursing degree (See post #21). The numbers I posted there were from 2016. Looks like the top ten have been pretty spot on with some slight reordering throughout the years: Same as it ever was: Top 10 most popular college majors | Career Path News for College Students | USA TODAY College

I'm not terribly worried about this program for a number of reasons:
1) This is community college, not private university. It's pretty much the cheapest form of college education you could make free.
2) It requires full time enrollment. This is going to dissuade the lazier folks from enrolling or cause quick dropouts. Lots of people like to say they're going to college while enrolling only in 1 or 2 classes and then never really completing. There's no option for this. Also, most people have bills and they're probably going to have to do some sort of work on the side on top of full time school if they're not lucky enough to live at home with mom and dad. Working + full time college is pretty intimidating for the lazy and will weed out the slackers.
3) They have to remain in the state for the same amount of time they received help for their college education. This provides more revenue to the state in form of taxes and it prevents brain drain. That's an overall positive thing because if someone is just planning on getting a degree and taking off, they'll have to pay for their degree like everyone else. For those who actually are serious about it and contributing to the state after they get their education, this is a perfect program for them.

Also, happy to here you've gotten a promotion to tier 2 support after a few years in the field.

Iristheangel

bhcs2014 wrote: »

You pay 90k in taxes because you are a hard-working genius. Not because of government education. Let's be real a lot of these people that get the free education just don't have the aptitude necessary to do the job.

Actually, I pay $90K in taxes now because at some point in my life, I needed social programs to survive and I did. Thanks to that, I lived another day and was able to make something of myself. If someone is stuck going back to college after a bitter divorce that left them penniless or their spouse passing away and finding themselves on the job market after decades, it's not an aptitude problem. If someone is a single parent and already works full time but can't pay for college after paying for healthcare, childcare costs, rent, etc, they don't lack aptitude. I could be narrowminded enough, as many employers are, to say you lack aptitude because you don't have a degree, but I don't make assumptions about why you don't have a degree. There are so many circumstances that cause someone to have to get help that it's immature and ignorant to call them all unproductive or a waste. That's throwing the baby out with the bath water.

By your logic, I was an "unproductive person" taking from "productive people" and I and other family members would have starved given various situations we once were in. Now you call me a "hard-working genius" while ignoring how I got here.

volfkhat

bhcs2014 wrote: »

That's false. Plenty of people on this forum myself included without degrees that have good IT jobs. Job Choices are more limited without a degree but saying you can't get a decent job isn't true.

Iristheangel wrote: »

Umm... weren't you asking for help just late last year because you couldn't get past level 1 support? Here's your thread of going from Desktop Support to Tier 1 support and how you feel like this is a lateral move: http://www.techexams.net/forums/jobs-degrees/120666-new-job-msp.html

ha!
Well...
best case, i guess it depends on what a person's definition of good is.
Worst case... someone is being a bit disingenuous.

but if i were seemingly stuck at Tier 1 jobs (and couldn't move up); i guess i'd be afraid of all that competition coming for me, as well.

This argument is pointless; and i'm embarrassed that i've fallen for the bait:
You warn that programs like in NY will devalue the 4-year Degree.
Big Freakin Deal.
A degree (in X) from University of Phoenix doesn't stand up to the same degree from the University of Michigan which doesn't stand up to the same degree from Harvard University. (you get my point).

The degree isn't the END goal. rather, it helps give you an opportunity for something more.
If you think a Bachelors is going to be so devalued, then SUCK it UP and get a Masters; or a Doctorate.

GEEZ, according to your logic, we shouldn't even have Public Schools because it devalues the High School Diploma.


EDIT:
But, then again, forget everything i just said Because, according to you, these people are mostly going for Liberal Arts majors anyway. and bhcs2014 has declared them to be "useless".

Hence, these kinds of "free" programs are all a waste of money (because bhcs2014 said so).


Yeah.... why am i even bothering to debate this??
Good Nite.

stryder144

I think we need to hit four main points of discussion regarding attendance at university:

1. Follow the Turkish* model of requiring a University admissions exam and an exam that points to which program you should be in.

2. Means testing and a sliding scale for how much the tuition should be. Also based on the Turkish* model, if you can afford all of the tuition, that is what you pay. If you can only afford half, you pay half.

3. There needs to be a hard, critical look at how universities calculate their tuition rates. When the cost of an education goes up faster than the cost of living, there is something generally wrong there. Transparency is necessary. Also, for those universities that have endowments, they should not be allowed to horde the money indefinitely. At the least, they should have to apply the money they make in interest and dividends every year to the overall budget and then refigure how much they charge per student.

4. Lastly, not every person is capable of going on to higher education, and thus shouldn't expect a free education. This doesn't mean that they are stupid, nor does it mean that they would never be able to attend college. I hated school growing up and was an average student. As such, I would have done poorly in school and would have cost the tax payers too much money. Now, it is another story. I routinely get top scores in school. Maturity is definitely a part of the equation. That is why I believe that entrance exams are crucial. In fact, it wouldn't be a bad idea to have every senior in high school take the ASVAB. We have spent many, many millions of dollars on those tests and they are fairly accurate indicators of what job(s) you would do well in.

*I am referencing information that I was told while I lived in Turkey in 1994/5. My poor Turkish language skills may have led to a misunderstanding of how their system works. Either way, I think that type of system, real or imagined, would be beneficial to our nation.

Iristheangel

@stryder144 - I think you have a great point about maturity and I loved your other points. My siblings were ready for college the day they got out of high school. However, I was not. I think the only part I disagree with is point 1 and that's because I wouldn't want someone else choosing my destiny for me. You might be passionate about something but have other limiting factors (i.e. a learning disability) which makes it harder to focus on studying. I think for every 4 hours I tried to study during college, it was only really about 1 hour when you take away all the distractions. It didn't stop me from getting my degree but made me work harder for it. Depending on the entry exam and the part of my life I took it, I might have ended up getting pushed into a wood carving major

Great points overall though and great food for thought. I know they only really just announced the program but I'm hoping they come out with more details and more structure around it. I would love to see something like points 2-4 for sure.