A twist on the "Masters Degree worth it?" thread.

Deus Ex Machina

Hi guys,

I'm in a confusing position at the moment, and I was wondering if you guys could help me.

Short version-

The reason this is a twist on the usual "is a masters degree worth it?" thread is because I am trying to use the grad school as a "mask" to nullify the no-name school I currently am getting my bachelor's from. The other twist is that I am 20 years old, so I do not know if getting a masters this early on is a good call.

Long version-

I am currently a junior studying for a bachelors in MIS at a no name university. I've done quite well here in terms of grades and certs, but I'm starting to see the limits of what I can accomplish with this school weighing me down.

Its starting to feel like substance doesn't matter, its all about the brand. Top companies (Google, Apple, Facebook, etc.) are not interested in a ivy caliber student at a no name school. I spent some time on LinkedIn looking at where my alumni have wound up and... lets just say not too many of them wound up at Google.

I'm trying to figure out how to resolve this.

Right now, I am trying to decide whether I should prepare for grad school by studying for the GRE's, or prepare for the job market by improving my technical skills in things like Python, Bash, and Perl this summer.

If I do well on the GRE's this summer, I can give the top master's degree schools a shot in the fall. I'll probably go for a masters in cyber security, or an MBA. I feel like I might be competitive for some of the top schools, but I know they are a crap shoot in general.

I figure a top 10 school on my resume would allow me to write my own ticket in life, but at the same time, jumping right into a masters after my bachelors seems a bit reckless financially and in terms of my work-education balance.

Alternatively, if I improve my technical skills, I have a pretty much 100% shot at jobs in my state, but I'll be unable to work for any real "winners".

What do you guys think? What should I focus on this summer?

NotHackingYou

Do you have any professional experience? I'm wondering if your resume would be too 'top-heavy' with an MS and no experience.

Clm

I would say if you can manage it now knock it out the way when you get older and possibly have kids they are going to take up your time. Or you can be like me and have your wife yell at you cause she doesn't understand CISM might take a couple hours a day of studying for 6 months

MontagueVandervort

So you're planning to get your Masters from an Ivy League school? I don't know. I feel like there's a better way to get all of this done. Mostly I'm concerned about you drawing up so much debt, way too early. That alone could be a big detriment to you.

You seem to have the drive (and here comes the but haha), but you also seem to be in too much of a hurry. Often if we want something too bad, we tend to stumble ... because we're not really seeing the forest for the trees. Try to slow down and relax in your thought process. Your drive is great, but you're almost too eager if you know what I mean.

I think taking on addition debt right now is a bad idea. Get some work experience first while you're still in school (if you're not doing this already). Then catch up on the debt you've already incurred, and then later on use the Masters as a step up.

Have you thought about just transfering to a "better" (your definition) school instead of graduating from the "no name" (again, your definition) school you're in now? It's true that everything may not transfer over and you may add a semester or two to your degree, but if the school you graduate from is really that important to you, then I would give it a shot.

This option would be a lot more economical, fix the situation more expediantly, and has a lower threat-potential than what you're considering.

Your situation reminds me of a car whose wheel is stuck in the mud. I mean no offense by that, but I feel like you're racing so hard and so strong... whereas it would work better if you would get out of the car, put something under the wheel and take it a bit more smoothly and steadily on the gas.

DatabaseHead

@OP Agree with your statement 100% "ts starting to feel like substance doesn't matter, its all about the brand. Top companies (Google, Apple, Facebook, etc.) are not interested in a ivy caliber student at a no name school. I spent some time on LinkedIn looking at where my alumni have wound up and... lets just say not too many of them wound up at Google. "

I said it once I'll say it again.

If you get a great BS in CS (or similar variant) from a top 50 University (assuming you want to go into IT), you will never need to do a certification or masters degree.

What you put in is what you get out. Hit a fly by night shop and you'll get very little on your return.

http://www.businessinsider.com/best-computer-science-engineering-schools-in-america-2015-7/#43-north-carolina-state-university-8

Get one of those and call it a day.

Hammer80

If you have the means and the time to get a Masters now, do it! Your experience can always catch up to your education, it's very hard to have your education catch up with your experience due to all the extra responsibilities later on. Later on you will have so much on your plate: wife, kids, bills, work. Good luck explaining to your wife and kids that you need to be left alone for a couple hours a day to study, that conversation rarely goes in your favor. If you have the ability to go to an Ivy League school then unless you are super smart don't bother with the technical programs and just get your MBA, an MBA from Ivy League is guaranteed to pay off with starting salaries all being 6 figure. The only time its worth going for a technical degree from an Ivy League is when you are getting your Bachelor's, like DatabaseHead said if you have a Bachelors from one of these school you never have to worry about getting a Masters, but since you are going from a no name Bachelors I would go for the most bang for the buck.

Just close your eyes and imagine trying to study with your wife and kids screaming in the background and that should give you the answer you seek.

Deus Ex Machina

@MontagueVandervort

That sounds like a pretty good idea for a lot of people. Unfortunately, I'm 3 years into my program currently (I'll be a senior in the Fall). Almost every Ivy League university requires you to not already be more than 2 years in, and they do their admissions for the Fall almost a full year in advance so I missed that. I really wish I had thought of that sooner though. On the plus side though, I'm on a full ride scholarship through this school, so at least I'm not building up much more debt.

powerfool

Having a goal, like working at Google, is great... but realize that in the grand scheme of things, almost nobody works at Google. You best bet is to get an intership ASAP so that you can build some experience... or just outright find a job that will be flexible enough for you to continue out your education. Another option would be to transfer elsewhere. Most schools require just 30 credit hours be completed at their institution to confer a degree. So, you could find somewhere to finish out your senior year and work on getting an internship.

nelson8403

It depends on what specialization you want to go into, most security jobs that I've seen require your masters and certs, if you want to be an engineer then yes a top 50 CS school is probably enough, though don't write off the masters especially since it's not that much more schooling.

Many top companies will not even look at you without a masters, (once again depending on the field, though even helpdesk a lot of companies are looking for bachelor + exp/masters) the it's a huge HR roadblock in the top 10% of companies.

Slowhand

I'm going take a hard line here and say this: having a graduate degree in your early 20's is not going to hurt you professionally, it's not going to hold you back, and the cases where someone might frown upon it are such outliers that you'll most likely never encounter them. There are going to be people who will tell you things like, "without experience a Master's degree is useless," and things of that nature, but it's simply not true. You will need experience, yes, and probably certs too at some point, but your point of entry is going to be higher than someone with just an undergraduate degree. This, of course, is given your situation of having a "no-name-school" Bachelor's degree and comparing with someone in a similar situation; comparing what you're doing to someone with a B.S. from MIT or Carnegie Mellon, for example, is a waste of time, not to mention a strawman situation we don't need to spend mental energy on. People will care about two things: the highest degree you've earned and the fact that you earned it at a young age; both are positive, *especially* if you're coming from a top-rated school.

As for whether you should do a specialization in cyber security or an MBA, that's up to you. The specialization will probably put you in a good position to dive deep into security over the course of your career, the MBA is going to serve you well if you want to branch out into other areas of technical and non-technical work, or if you want to make a jump into management or a C-level position at some point. The financial question is also an important one: you could start looking for work right now and pay off those student loan debts with a (most likely) a lower-paying job, or you could go back and accumulate more debt for the Master's and then get to paying that off with (most likely) a higher-paying gig, there's risk and benefit involved in both paths. You could also split the difference and take a year to work, pay off as much of your debts as you can, maybe take a couple of certs, and then go for a Master's. Either way, you should probably get those GREs done.

volfkhat

Blehhh...
It just feels like you are making decisions based on the Wrong reasons.

You should be wanting to pursue a masters for more knowledge; not because you think your undergrad is a no-name brand.

MBA or Cyber Security.... huh?
You should be making that decision based on what actually interests you; Not based on someone else's formula/algorithm for future $$$ & success.

You are only 20 years old. How do you know that you even Like I.T.?
How do you know that.. 5 years from now... you won't have burned-out & quit the profession entirely?


WHat's the freakin rush?
Why not just Get a Job (in your field of interest) and see how that goes?
Then, you can make a better informed "next step" in a couple of years.

People today are always trying to plan out Every step in their life.
Trying to account for/control every scenario...
but you could get hit by a bus tomorrow.


Geez man, even this guy needed a few years before he figured out what he wanted to do after college:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama#Education
just saying...


EDIT:

Deus Ex Machina wrote: »

I figure a top 10 school on my resume would allow me to write my own ticket in life...

Seriously?
Is that based on actual statistics?
Or is this based on anecdotal evidence quoted by "top 10" schools...
?

Do you really think Google, Apple, FB will choose to hire someone with a Masters in CYBER SECURITY from [TOP 10 School] but Zero experience,
instead of hiring a candidate that has actual I.T/infosec Experience (but without the masters)??


/shrug

dmoore44

The big advantage of going to a top school is that you build an extensive network of high achievers, and the recruiters have an established relationship with the school, so they're already there and waiting. My undergrad isn't from a top school (UMUC), but I've still had recruiters from several top tech companies reach out to me; to them, it doesn't matter where you went to school, as long you can prove you're competent. And the way you prove you're competent is by becoming involved in the community you're seeking to join. If you have the cycles to spare, contribute to an open source project. If you write code, make sure it's on github. Go after internships. And make sure all of those achievements are listed on your resume and LinkedIn profile.

Also, you might want to consider location and proximity to the employers you want to target. If you want to work in tech, move to the Bay Area or Seattle. Or, consider positions at those places that are outside the Bay Area. Apple, Google, Amazon, Microsoft, and others have large presences in other metro areas like DC, Chicago, Boston, NYC, Austin, and Dallas.

Or, you could also try examining the LinkedIn profiles of people that work at the places you want to wind up. Doing so might help shape a career path. It's very common for people in tech to do one or two stints at a large consulting firm like PwC, Deloitte, KPMG, or McKinsey - they're prestige brands too, just like educational institutions, and they catch the eye of a recruiter.

adrenaline19

Get your Master's now. Don't ever put off education. I promise you won't regret getting it now, but you really might regret not having it later.

Danielm7

volfkhat wrote: »

Seriously?
Is that based on actual statistics?
Or is this based on anecdotal evidence quoted by "top 10" schools...
?

Do you really think Google, Apple, FB will choose to hire someone with a Masters in CYBER SECURITY from [TOP 10 School] but Zero experience,
instead of hiring a candidate that has actual I.T/infosec Experience (but without the masters)??


/shrug

I'd be curious to see that too, everything else I've ever seen has shown otherwise. Ivy league != write your own ticket, especially in tech.

To get back to a few other questions that others had. What IT experience do you have already? What do you want to do?

Also, are you taking on a lot of debt now? What are you considering for an MS program? I really doubt if you end up spending something like 100K+ for a high level MS in something technical that it'll balance back out with any sort of ROI in a reasonable time frame. You mentioned an MBA or cyber security. An MBA without any actual business experience but want to get into tech doesn't make a ton of sense. A cyber degree without any actual hands on security experience doesn't make any sense either. You might get amazing labs, etc, but it's still not 100% transferable to the real security world and you'll probably find someone with a HS diploma, the OSCP and 2 years of experience running circles around you. If you were already in a local state school and they had a program where you could do another year and get your MS for a really reasonable price it would be another story, but this doesn't sound like the same deal at all.

Now, with all that said, you seem really hung up on your current school and the idea that it's a huge boat anchor holding you down, that's probably also not accurate either at all. When you look up companies like Google, and as other said, you can have an amazing career without working at Google/FB, look for the tier of schools they go to, not just your specific school, you'll probably be surprised.

adam220891

A lot of us here have undergraduate and/or graduate degrees from no-name WGU and make lots of money.

I agree that a top-50 school will pay dividends, but only top-50. Outside of that and no-name is no-name (so might as well go a cheap as possible). You'll pay lots of money to attend that top-50 school though which I'm guessing will be in-person and delay a full-time career in IT. It might take a decade or more to realize the increased earning potential. So if you're trying to fast-track for money, that probably isn't going to align well for you.

Also, Google is probably a junk company to work for. Most tech companies expect 60 hour workweeks in exchange for all the perks (free meals, relaxed attire, ping pong, etc.). I could be wrong, but I don't know why you'd make it your life goal to work for Google.

Deus Ex Machina

Danielm7 wrote: »

To get back to a few other questions that others had. What IT experience do you have already? What do you want to do?

I've got 2 years of doing tech support for a local college under my belt. I had to do things like write security policies for our student loaned laptops, conduct security oriented presentations, manage antivirus software, and do over-the-phone + on-site technical repairs.

I LOVE repairing laptops for some reason, but a career in geek squad isn't really something I'm too keen on.

In terms of what I want to do, I'll admit I have changed my mind a few times. College hasn't really answered these sorts of questions for me. I've seen from work that I like the aforementioned technical work more than the bureaucratic work, but I suppose that may not be transferable. Having a master's in a field I grow to hate would be a bummer.

I'm currently in some debt due to my scholarship not kicking in first year at my school, but I'm getting a full ride now so my final debts will be pretty low.

I would like to think I don't actually have to spend $50 k a year in grad school and that more scholarships will come up, but I guess I'll be eating $100 k in debt + my current debts + living expenses if I take this move.

I know that you can have a great career without going to a top company, but I am discouraged by where my alumni wound up. The "competitive" companies don't seem to like us too much. Sticking with the blood sucking insurance companies in my state just because they are "good enough" when I could have done so much more would be pretty sad.

Danielm7

Without really having a solid focus yet or much in the way of experience to draw from I'd avoid any MS program right now. You might just get too pigeonholed and wind up with a ton of debt and regret. I'd finish up what you're doing now, or transfer somewhere you like more for your last year, and enter the workforce. From there you might find that you either love or hate whatever you might have spent 100K specializing in. And later a company might be more likely to offer tuition reimbursement and you can do it on someone else's dime.

As for "top companies", even a masters and 2 years of desktop support doesn't really make for a "write your own ticket" sort of situation. Again, I suggest figuring out what you really want, not the company, the field, and then work your way up from there.

Clm

Why are so many people wrapped up with school names. I have a AA degree from a online nationally accredited college and I have landed some great jobs. A BA from A ivy league school can easily cost you 100k+ with that same 100K I can get a BA and MA from WGU, Pay for a CISSP Boot camp and Test, 5 Sans Courses and test, OSCP course and CISM and still have some money left over. Any good company will look at you as a total package compared to just your degree

MontagueVandervort

Deus Ex Machina wrote: »

@MontagueVandervort

That sounds like a pretty good idea for a lot of people. Unfortunately, I'm 3 years into my program currently (I'll be a senior in the Fall). Almost every Ivy League university requires you to not already be more than 2 years in, and they do their admissions for the Fall almost a full year in advance so I missed that. I really wish I had thought of that sooner though. On the plus side though, I'm on a full ride scholarship through this school, so at least I'm not building up much more debt.

Ok, new information changes a lot. If you're on a full-ride scholarship then I can understand your consideration of doing a Masters to cover the no-name school. I just read in your response to Danielm7, that you do owe for the first year though. That's not too bad, and you're only 20, so you've got time on your side. Time is a very, very valuable asset to have.

I have an idea, but not sure you'll go for it. What I would do in your position (with your same age, feelings, drive, and conviction) is...
1. Make sure I had all of my General classes (classes that would fall under any progam that all students have to take).
2. If I had all of my General classes, I would stop here right now (because the losses are minimal - time... which at your age you've got... and 1 yr of financial loss).
3. I would enroll in another college's program and transfer in my General Classes and any other classes that may potentially match the Ivy League school's program I intend to take making sure not to exceed the 2 yrs that you mentioned.
4. I would then transfer from that college to the Ivy League school.

It probably sounds far-fetched or overly complex, but I would use that "new" college as the jumping point to get into the Ivy League. Of course you're going to incur the debt of the "new" school and the Ivy League school, but if you really want this it will still be cheaper than just starting off with no classes to transfer into the Ivy League college.

The one important point here though is to make sure that you don't take too long getting the degree at the Ivy League school. Time is a factor for that if you want to work for these larger companies. You want to be as young as possible. You're already on target as long as you stop here now and don't take to long there. That's why I said stop here (your current year).

You can just consider the no-name school where you are now as a bit of money saver in terms of having used it to get your General Classes. That's what I would do. And I do think you're right about all this. If I had to do life all over again, I would have said the ---- with it and gone to MIT. What a different life I would have had.

ITSec14

3 things...

1. I didn't graduate from a top-50 university, but my school is considered to be top-100 and I'll just tell you this...it doesn't make THAT much of a difference. Sure, if you get a degree from MIT or an Ivy League you have good odds in getting a pretty good job and making good money. That being said, you still have to get accepted which is incredibly difficult seeing you are going up against people from all over the world who already have bachelor degrees from prestigious universities and likely know people...my CIO is making $300k+ (public info as we are publicly traded) with a bachelors from a no name school and he's only in his 40's (just keep that in mind).

2. My cousin was offered a pretty nice position at Google which started at ~$100k...however, the cost of living in most places where Google has offices is obscene. I think the problem with many younger students finishing college is they see all these big tech companies and they think it's their only option...it's not. If a job opens at Google or Facebook, guess how many others will also apply? Probably THOUSANDS at least. Do yourself a favor and start with a small to medium sized company, get your hands on a lot of stuff, learn a crap ton from it, then move on to bigger name companies. I have friends who work for huge corporations who have a very narrow scope in their jobs and they get bored since there are 25-50+ others who do that same exact thing.

3. Going to a more positive note...you are still YOUNG! You have time to meet your goals. You can always find a company that offers tuition reimbursement too for your Masters (that's my plan eventually). Stop worrying about what other people are doing and focus on YOU. You already have a step up compared to other soon to be grads. You will have a bachelors, some certs and work experience. Be realistic in your expectations, but don't set your standards low either.

Just my .02...

Best of luck.

Deus Ex Machina

@MontagueVandervort

I kinda see what you are driving at. You're saying I should "reset" a year by transferring to a better school now and then apply to transfer to an Ivy league. Unfortunately, I would still have "completed" more than 2 years of college in total, which is what the Ivy's mean. I looked into it just to make sure. There's no going back now.

AverageJoe

Some great discussion happening here.

The big thing you should really be seeing is that opinions vary. That will likewise be the case when it comes time for you to get a job. Some hiring managers may well look unfavorably at a no-name school, but other hiring managers won't care a lick about which school you graduated from. Some will care about your GPA, some won't. Will you be more impressive with an ivy league degree? Sure. But to a lot of folks a degree is a degree is a degree.

But, like I've often told my young students and young IT techs, you'll probably never have as much time as you have now. If you can afford it, there's almost no downside to getting a master's degree now. And if you happen to land the perfect job while you're a grad student, you can always drop to less than full time or completely pause the degree if you need to.

And I'll add something I don't see in anyone else's comments: you might just really enjoy working on your master's, which makes it well worth your time. This has been the case for me. I have one BS and several master's degrees... because I love the opportunity to focus my studies on a subject of interest. A master's degree is generally 10 to 14 classes and you don't have to dabble with general ed or broadening subjects you don't like or have no interest in.

And again, if you start down that road and something changes, there's no rule against quitting and choosing another strategy (or different degree program). You still have your BS to fall back on, so it's not like an undergrad who drops out and is then only a high school grad.

Just my 2 cents.
Joe

MontagueVandervort

Deus Ex Machina wrote: »

@MontagueVandervort

I kinda see what you are driving at. You're saying I should "reset" a year by transferring to a better school now and then apply to transfer to an Ivy league. Unfortunately, I would still have "completed" more than 2 years of college in total, which is what the Ivy's mean. I looked into it just to make sure. There's no going back now.

I was saying you could "hide" a year. I still think that's possible if you choose the right program at the "new" college. You have to choose a program that will nullify most of your classes and keep your general classes. It can be done.

If you're really not up for all of this though, then just stop where you are and start over again at an Ivy League. You don't have to tell any college you've been to another college. It would just be starting fresh. Sure you will lose your general classes this way, but if for some reason you don't want to take the other route, you could do it this way.

Nothing is stopping you except yourself. If you really want this, don't get in your own way.

josephandre

stop looking at where other alumni wind up. It's irrelevant. you seem driven and that you want more out of life, that in itself should prevent you from being stuck somewhere you don't want to be. You've convinced yourself that you can get into and succeed at an ivy league school, apply that same confidence toward NOT winding up in a job like you described. you'll be fine. also check out harvard extension school

Deus Ex Machina

@MontagueVandervort
You cannot lie about not going to college when applying for one. There's a paper trail. I wouldn't want to even if I could.

MontagueVandervort

I wasn't suggesting lying. I would never do this. I've never seen an application specifically ask if you went to school elsewhere. Most applications I've seen just include a section to input the information if desired for transfer. If you don't desire to transfer the credits, then no need to fill in that section.

tunerX

Why go to a school if you think it is a "no name"?

You seem to be interested in whether or not your creds have Biff and Buffy credibility than whether or not your ability to work and converse with people on a straight forward and in-depth technical level is a driving factor for employment. You care more about where you knowledge came from than actually having the knowledge.

Should you get a masters or should you get certs?

Yes to both, you should improve yourself on paper and in real life. Should you care about the caliber and brag worthiness on where your academic education came from... that is entirely up to you.

Deus Ex Machina

@tunerX

It's not about "bragging", it's primarily about getting connections. Of course social+technical skill is a factor in getting hired for any job, but it isn't enough for the highly competitive ones. Just a prerequisite.

--chris--

Deus Ex Machina wrote: »

@tunerX

It's not about "bragging", it's primarily about getting connections. Of course social+technical skill is a factor in getting hired for any job, but it isn't enough for the highly competitive ones. Just a prerequisite.

There a better places to make connections than a top 50 school. I have bumped into a guy who works in Redmond for MS at home at my first job (helpdesk) at a local hospital. The guys wife was the manager at a part of the hospital and setup a meeting for us because she thought "we should meet". That dude had so much solid advice and we still talk regularly....

Point is go to conventions, join groups, hell move to San Fran and do both of the latter....it will be cheaper and faster than starting over.


tl;dr If GOOGLE is the goal, move there and keep trying every angle you can. Hell....sweep floors there if you have to, imagine how many "connections" can be made that way.

Plus the weather is pretty nice I hear.

ITSec14

Deus Ex Machina wrote: »

@tunerX

You can get connections anywhere. I've met more people through networking events and technology conventions than I ever did in my alumni association.

Is reputation really your main concern here? Don't put all your eggs in one basket (or in this case, Google, Microsoft or Facebook). You have great ambitions, which I commend you for, but I just feel like you're spending so much energy on something that could potentially be a time suck and leave you disappointed. Expand on your horizon a little.

blargoe

Why is working for a Fortune 50 type company a goal of yours?