Where does it end?

Tuningislife

So I am actively looking for a new job.

The reason? Management of course.

We got screwed in September by being broken off into our own company. A company that did not have anything in place before we transitioned. Though, you would think they would. Even now, over half a year in, we still don't have a performance process, or a compensation process. We are being told they brought in compensation consultants that they are telling us will evaluate our jobs against our job descriptions, against the industry and adjust from there. Some how I don't see that happening. So I am looking elsewhere.

I have two Masters degrees and eight different certifications, yet, everywhere wants to low-ball me. My co-worker complained today that we are hiring for a DevOps position, which is the job he is currently unofficially doing, and people are asking for 145k+. He went to HR and said that he should get the position and the pay since he is doing the job. They said no. He is like, we are getting screwed. But, how do you know what you are worth, if you can't get paid what other people are getting paid, and no-one tells you what industry standard is for that position, because those positions don't really exist? I ask for 130k and get balked at. It is like, you have other guys, who do less than me, that make more than me, yet here I am improving myself, where you, the company benefits from my knowledge gained, and you don't even try to incentivize me? Why even bother trying hard then?

Co-workers are like, you should apply for management level jobs, and my response is, I can't! They want management experience to get into a manager position, but how do you get experience without being a manager? How can you move up, if your company doesn't even open manager or director level positions, and instead installs people in them, like it is the Presidential Cabinet?

Sorry, just frustrated and venting. Work and lack of finding something else has been really hard on me lately.

Ertaz

That sounds rough dude. With AWS and CISSP I would think you should be able to find something that will get you paid. How far are you from DC? I think having a pulse gets you in the $ there...

TechGromit

Tuningislife wrote: »

I have two Masters degrees and eight different certifications, yet, everywhere wants to low-ball me.

What are your salary expectations? I'm wondering it there is another reason as well, perhaps age discrimination? How your coming across in an interview? I see Maryland in your profile and I immediately thing Washington DC< there should be plenty of well paying opportunities for that area. So I'm thinking there is another reason other then experience and certifications.

Tuningislife

So that is just it. There should be a ton of well paying jobs.

I had one come across my email last week that was offering $58/h for an "AWS Cloud Engineer to work in Baltimore, MD on a long-term contract-to-hire opportunity".

I did a DevOps interview in Baltimore, asked $125k, they said while I had a ton of infrastructure knowledge, I was a little light on DevOps (to be expected, not my primary role), and they would rather hire someone with no knowledge in at less pay and train them.

Right now, I am barely over $100k, and that was only because my previous boss gave me ~5% increase for getting my Master degree.

My co-worker thinks that I could be scaring people away. Seeing as how I am in my early-thirties, and have more degrees and certs than some of the seasoned guys that have been places for 20+ years.

The other thing is, in this area, a lot of companies do work with the government, so they require you hold a clearance. I used to hold a clearance, but since I went into the Public sector 3.5 years ago, it went inactive and I lost it. So any company picking me up would have to put me through a clearance process again, and a lot of them don't want to do that. I literally had one recruiter end the phone conversation when I said I no longer held a clearance, and that was only for a Secret! Never mind the ones that need a TS/SCI with Full Scope.

Ertaz

Tuningislife wrote: »

My co-worker thinks that I could be scaring people away. Seeing as how I am in my early-thirties, and have more degrees and certs than some of the seasoned guys that have been places for 20+ years.

There may be some truth to that.

Is Devops what you want to do or are you just looking to do something to make bank? If you are set on DevOPS, you can hit the "AWS Certified DevOps Engineer" cert and prove it a little bit, I would think.

Tuningislife

Ertaz wrote: »

There may be some truth to that.

Is Devops what you want to do or are you just looking to do something to make bank? If you are set on DevOPS, you can hit the "AWS Certified DevOps Engineer" cert and prove it a little bit, I would think.

I just wanted to make use of my certs and experiences. Try and climb the ladder any way I can. I figured it would be something different to do. I enjoy security, but when my security team had an open position, they under billed it, and opened it at like a Jr level, and I was told by the hiring manager, they would not be able to even match what I was making, much less pay me more. I became a systems engineer because it was a means to an ends. I got my AWS cert because my company needed two people to be certified so they could have partner status, but I never got as much as a thanks for getting it, and it took me fighting to get included on a lot of the high level AWS we were doing.

NetworkNewb

Sounds like the whole "Experience >>> Certs/degrees" thing just playing out... If people are saying you are light on DevOps experience I would fluff my resume and interview answers to sound like I do a lot of DevOp work. Not lie, but just focusing on your DevOp tasks you currently do.

Not to down play your certs, but most seem fairy entry level. Obviously not all of them... But nothing too crazy there.

(I consider mine very entry level and don't think many should be impressed by them btw)

psheehan5

At a previous company, they had a stupid rule that if you were an employee, the most raise you could get was 5%. It didn't matter what job you were doing. It all depended on what pay band you entered the company at. So a lot of people would quit and get hired back later at a much higher pay rate. We had an engineer who moved to the Vulnerability Assessment team. That person's engineering pay scale was not as much as a Cyber Analyst pay scale but they would only go 5%, which of course didn't bridge the gap. The company lost the employee to another company in just a couple of months after that interchange. Hmmmm, I wonder why....

Ertaz

Tuningislife wrote: »

I just wanted to make use of my certs and experiences. Try and climb the ladder any way I can. I figured it would be something different to do.

This sounds like it may be a business cultural alignment issue. I had that when I started 3 years ago at my current job. I felt disconnected and ineffective because of the constraints I was under. I withdrew at first because I really didn't think I could stand it. It turns out that my kids still had to eat. I pushed myself more to try and meet the needs I saw and at the end of two years I was promoted to a lead role. This year I requested an MCSE Server 2016, but after discussions with my boss about where the company is going, I'm doing an MCSE Azure Admin stack next, just because it's a gap. If you want to stay there and you feel that you can visualize what the Org's next biggest need is, pursue it either with their help or without. Even if you don't get the recognition again, I feel you'll only be better for it and better poised to make a jump should the need arise.

EANx

Management is the number one reason why people leave a company and that's the reason I bust my tail to show my staff that I appreciate their hard work.

How do you get management experience without being a manager? By moving into a team-lead role and demonstrating that you understand why things are being done a certain way and what the big picture actually is. Way too many techies have tunnel vision regarding their role. I can't count the number of times I've had someone argue that what I wanted wasn't optimal and had to say "just do it already". Things would have gone far better if they had asked for an understanding of the bigger picture. And before anyone says it, I didn't volunteer than info because people generally aren't ready to change their world-view until they demonstrate it.

So this looks like a company you need to leave but when you move to your next one, six months in, ask your boss and his boss what it would take to be tested in a starting management role.

UnixGuy

you have an MBA, why do you need management experience? have you tried to apply to management jobs? you seem to be after technical jobs. Also, I think it's time to change jobs, like everybody else said.

techie2018

Very easy to determine your worth. Just start interviewing at other places and see what type of offers you get.

Tuningislife

UnixGuy wrote: »

you have an MBA, why do you need management experience? have you tried to apply to management jobs? you seem to be after technical jobs. Also, I think it's time to change jobs, like everybody else said.

I mean, when I look at jobs like Information Security Manager, and they have requirements like this "Minimum 3 years management experience" or "Experienced leading a SOC" it is hard to justify that with just an MBA.

Tuningislife

techie2018 wrote: »

Very easy to determine your worth. Just start interviewing at other places and see what type of offers you get.

Yea, I did that before. I ended up getting an offer that was 25% more than I was making at the time (I believed I was underpaid anyway). My boss asked me to see if my current company would match it. I ended up getting berated by that companies HR for even considering it, being told "we made a special exception hiring you", and "if we give you a raise, we can't give your co-workers a raise" or "what is the lowest number you are willing to accept?" Yea. I am never going to work for that company again.

scaredoftests

If you are in Maryland, there are plenty of companies that would love to hire you and treat you decently. Look at Fort Meade/Fort Detrick areas.

Tuningislife

EANx wrote: »

Management is the number one reason why people leave a company and that's the reason I bust my tail to show my staff that I appreciate their hard work.

How do you get management experience without being a manager? By moving into a team-lead role and demonstrating that you understand why things are being done a certain way and what the big picture actually is. Way too many techies have tunnel vision regarding their role. I can't count the number of times I've had someone argue that what I wanted wasn't optimal and had to say "just do it already". Things would have gone far better if they had asked for an understanding of the bigger picture. And before anyone says it, I didn't volunteer than info because people generally aren't ready to change their world-view until they demonstrate it.

So this looks like a company you need to leave but when you move to your next one, six months in, ask your boss and his boss what it would take to be tested in a starting management role.

I would love to move into a "lead" role, if we even had that position. That was my position at my previously job, System Administrator Team Lead. The micro-management at that place made it very toxic, so I left it for my current job. At my current job, we have roles like II, III, and Senior, but you cannot move into one of those roles unless someone vacates them, and my manager has been there 30 years, and the senior has been there since 1992. Even then, there is no guarantee. One of our Senior Security Engineers was appointed to his current director level position, a position that previously did not exist, and the company never back-filled his position. So he has to do management work, and security work and is starting to get overwhelmed.

I always say to people, "employees don't quit companies; employees quit managers." I firmly believe it too. Managers can make or break a company and a culture.

Tuningislife

scaredoftests wrote: »

If you are in Maryland, there are plenty of companies that would love to hire you and treat you decently. Look at Fort Meade/Fort Detrick areas.

I live right by Ft Meade, and used to work on it. My current issue for that is everywhere requires a clearance, but since mine went inactive from non-use, no one seems to want to sponsor people to get it re-upped. Also, some companies suck, especially in the contracting world. You are just a number to them, a figure on a spreadsheet.

Tuningislife

NetworkNewb wrote: »

Sounds like the whole "Experience >>> Certs/degrees" thing just playing out... If people are saying you are light on DevOps experience I would fluff my resume and interview answers to sound like I do a lot of DevOp work. Not lie, but just focusing on your DevOp tasks you currently do.

Not to down play your certs, but most seem fairy entry level. Obviously not all of them... But nothing too crazy there.

(I consider mine very entry level and don't think many should be impressed by them btw)

So that is my main point. Where does it end? When is enough enough? Certs like the CISSP I didn't want to get, but every interview I went on, they asked me... "So, when are you getting your CISSP?"

I am also Faculty, so some of those certs (e.g. A+), I got merely so I could teach the class, since certs >>> experience when it comes to teaching a class.

I was not necessarily looking to do DevOps work right now, it just seems to be the "in" thing that a lot of companies are hiring for, so that is what I get calls for sometimes.

scaredoftests

it is easier to hire a person who has had a clearance previously though ( I had that happen to me, and it was not a problem). Also, it depends on the company (the level of suckiness).

UnixGuy

Tuningislife wrote: »

I mean, when I look at jobs like Information Security Manager, and they have requirements like this "Minimum 3 years management experience" or "Experienced leading a SOC" it is hard to justify that with just an MBA.

that shouldn't stop you from applying! first management job will be harder to get, then it gets easier. 3+ yrs experience is usually a wish list. Try, nothing to lose. Keep applying!

Squished

Ertaz wrote: »

That sounds rough dude. With AWS and CISSP I would think you should be able to find something that will get you paid. How far are you from DC? I think having a pulse gets you in the $ there...

Half a brain and a pulse gets you the big money in DC.

Jon_Cisco

UnixGuy wrote: »

that shouldn't stop you from applying! first management job will be harder to get, then it gets easier. 3+ yrs experience is usually a wish list. Try, nothing to lose. Keep applying!

Nobody was ever born with experience. A degree allows you to justify applying anyway.

Good Luck!

scaredoftests

sent you a pm

Squished

One thing to understand as well is that employers always want to pay you the absolute minimum for the most amount of work possible. Loyalty is a thing of the past and I question whether HR retaining practices are starting to become a thing of the past as well. There is always someone willing to do your job cheaper than you. Once you understand that, you won't think twice about going elsewhere.

kiki162

I'm in the same boat. I'm actively looking as well, been doing so for the past 6 months.

People in this industry at the end of the day just want an opportunity.

When I hear DevOps, I think more of SRE teams and programmers types. It's really difficult to get that type of experience coming from a Security based role.

Having a GitHub page, blog, or some other type of industry footprint will get you the brownie points. Part of this is who you know and who you network with. In reality, most of us don't have the time to do it.

I have the same problem with plenty of degrees and certifications to back me up, just not enough experience to get my foot in the front door. Corporate politics also has a part in preventing anyone from moving up the ladder.

TechGromit

Tuningislife wrote: »

The other thing is, in this area, a lot of companies do work with the government, so they require you hold a clearance.

I'm seriously considering working for an over seas company like Vertus for a year to get my Security a clearance, than get a Government job in DC. While I'm currently earning over 110k a year now without a degree, I really don't like the area. I'm stuck here for two years, but if nothing opens up in a year or so after that within the company in a warmer climate, I'm moving on.

TechGromit

psheehan5 wrote: »

We had an engineer who moved to the Vulnerability Assessment team. That person's engineering pay scale was not as much as a Cyber Analyst pay scale but they would only go 5%, which of course didn't bridge the gap. The company lost the employee to another company in just a couple of months after that interchange. Hmmmm, I wonder why....

Wow, I got a 15% bump with my recent promotion.