Patten University - and how it compares against others (in my opinion).

revelated

For the record, I am a former WGU student that dropped the program. It got me a lot of tech certs and transfer credits, and a student loan bill. That's all I can really say about that. It wasn't a good experience overall - it was to start, but not later.

In 2015 I decided to switch schools and try to transfer credits. I tried UMUC (University of Maryland University College), CSU Global Campus, Florida Tech Online, and Penn State World Campus.

UMUC had a horrible enrollment experience - delays in processing transcript, issues with the transcript from WGU where class outcomes were misrepresented (calling classes "transfer" when I actually took and passed them, for example), and of course they used PeopleSoft which is an unintuitive online web experience.

CSU Global uses PayPal for credit card processing. PayPal doesn't take cards without a PayPal account, which I don't and won't ever again have due to them blocking accounts for arbitrary reasons. CSU waived the fee and negated the need to provide a card, but then they do a credit check (?) and require docs for certain things. Problem: Stafford loans under the rules are not credit based, they're needs based, and them running credit is improper (I worked in the industry). PLUS loans are credit based, but I didn't want or need PLUS loans. So I withdrew the app.

Florida Tech Online has a very archaic enrollment. You can't do hardly anything online, you have to email answers to questions, then do a call, then do more emailing...just didn't work for me.

Penn State World Campus didn't do anything specifically wrong, but their requirements weren't really clear. It isn't self paced, you have to have a webcam and headset to participate in actual scheduled classes, which I wasn't interested in as I work sometimes more than 40 hours a week and some weekends, and I needed ultimate flexibility. So I withdrew.

Fast forward and I stumble on Patten University. They've had a tough run of it. Started as a faith-based nonprofit, got bought out, went for profit, lost accreditation due to scummy practices, got bought out again, regained accreditation after probation and now here we are. They don't do FFELP at all, it's all out of pocket if you don't have tuition reimbursement (which I don't).

Patten is self paced, and has some basic "activity" requirements. You have to communicate with your advisor and/or the course advisor if/when they reach out but it's less about progress and more about making sure you have what you need. You have to submit the assignments. You have to do the tests. Normal stuff. But so far two things impressed me: first, they took my WGU credits and basically they were enough for nearly all the GE courses - even courses I didn't complete with WGU were given credit, unlike the other four above that didn't credit those courses. Second, you can do the entire enrollment yourself with no interaction whatsoever with anyone. I was able to start right away without ever talking to anyone.

Now, Patten does not do financial aid; you have to pay out of pocket, which for me isn't a problem, but for someone who's unemployed or lower income (I'd say, under $12/hour if you're single and live alone, $8/hour if you don't have a living expense) is likely an issue. Still self paced, so if you complete the program in 4 months, that $1500 or whatever is all you pay. It's significantly cheaper than other for-profit schools because they don't need to do the FFELP and their web experience saves on enrollment advisor time investment. There's also no college email address (which you do get with the above ones including WGU, which I still have), so you have to log in to reply to advisors.

Courses for Patten are mostly some written extracts from textbooks, links to the textbook library (no extra charge for that), linked external written material, or linked external videos (mostly YouTube). Some ask that you post on a discussion board either solo or in reply to other posts. There are also some flashcard "mastery" parts that are helpful for trying to remember terms. Other than that it's a very similar format to WGU - a pre-exam that tells you what to study in preparation for the final exam, proctored exams, etc.

Now, unlike WGU, every course (as far as I can tell) requires a minimum of three essays, usually on Unit 2, 4 and 6, usually 2-4 pages, and they're graded by the instructor. Most of mine get graded a day later, but they have up to 7 days to grade them and provide response. Between the essays, the exams, and the grading, Patten uses an actual letter score system for courses, rather than WGU's Pass/Fail outcome system. This means more credibility in terms of the quality of the work done and transcripts, but it also means things may take a lot longer especially if you have to use APA standards, but most of my essays are straight out of my head and I don't need to cite anything. But essays take a while to research, write, proofread and publish properly especially if it's material that's new to you.

I'll continue providing updates, but so far, Patten (for me) is a generally consistent experience that's still close to the college experience, without the hard limitations. But it probably won't work at all for those who aren't currently working or bringing in income and certainly won't work if you don't like/aren't good at writing essays.

Iristheangel

I could be reading this wrong but it doesn't look like they have a Bachelor of Science program or any sort of IT undergrad program: Online College Degree Programs - Patten University

Personally, I don't know if going for a BA in a non-IT major is going to score more credibility in the IT industry regardless of whether you're submitting essays or not in the class. I could be reading that wrong or there is some hidden page with their BS IT majors.

Danielm7

revelated wrote: »

Fast forward and I stumble on Patten University. They've had a tough run of it. Started as a faith-based nonprofit, got bought out, went for profit, lost accreditation due to scummy practices, got bought out again, regained accreditation after probation and now here we are. They don't do FFELP at all, it's all out of pocket if you don't have tuition reimbursement (which I don't).

You're clearly looking for something unique as none of those other good schools were what you were looking for but the above quote would scare me away. Hope it works out for you.

yoba222

revelated wrote: »

. . .Fast forward and I stumble on Patten University. They've had a tough run of it. Started as a faith-based nonprofit, got bought out, went for profit, lost accreditation due to scummy practices, got bought out again, regained accreditation after probation and now here we are. . .

I remember considering Heald college a few years back. I'm grateful that didn't work out and some of my coworkers at the time were hit by that when they closed in 2015. That would be an ugly degree to hold right now. No offense to anyone reading this that has one. Patten sure sounds to me like it's following Heald's footsteps. Is Patten more likely to stand the test of time than say Penn State 5 years from now?

As far as finding a college with a really great user experience--honestly just get in and get out. This is only going to be like 12-24 months anyways. Once you have the degree, who cares if they use PeopleSoft or whatever.

The most attractive college I was ever exposed to was Remington College. They sure train their enrollment counselor's/sales people well. The campus tour even included a free massage! While the school is still around, I don't remember which year it was when they dropped that IT degree from their program.

If I were you I'd pinch my nose and pick what makes the most sense to have on your resume in 5 years time. Student loans definitely considered.

EANx

Danielm7 wrote: »

You're clearly looking for something unique as none of those other good schools were what you were looking for but the above quote would scare me away. Hope it works out for you.

That quote set off all sorts of red flags for me.

adam220891

Just my opinion but WGU is the cheapest and most recognized option. If you can’t make that work, I wouldn’t waste your time or money on anything else. Tuition covers your certs and leverage the self study discipline you already need and will need for future certs after college. Seriously it’s all about ROI and WGU is hard to beat.

joelsfood

Getting credit for classes that werne't even completed is what caught my eye. Either they messed up processing the transcript, or the diploma you're getting isn't worth the paper it's printed on. Getting credit for classes you haven't completed strikes me as no different from just buying a degree from a diploma mill.

revelated

Thanks to all for the replies.

I realize now that there's quite a bit of confusion...and possible misinformation, triggered by the rampant rush towards non-profits.

joelsfood wrote: »

Getting credit for classes that werne't even completed is what caught my eye. Either they messed up processing the transcript, or the diploma you're getting isn't worth the paper it's printed on. Getting credit for classes you haven't completed strikes me as no different from just buying a degree from a diploma mill.

When I say credit for courses not completed, that's more about WGU's poor credit/transcript process than Patten. I know this is the case, because I have a copy of what WGU sent to UMUC. The course wasn't "failed" or "passed", just "attended" - well, Patten takes attendance in a course reported on a transcript as credited, as they should. That's the flaw with WGU's Pass/Fail mantra; without numeric or letter scoring there's no way to know if a class is graded or not. Fortunately this only applied to GE courses as far as I can tell, and I'm fine with that.

As someone who had worked in the industry, it is easy for me to identify schools that aren't worth the effort or risk, versus schools that just need a second look, versus schools that are time-honored. It took me years though to realize that the best possible schools are the ones in the middle - they're not flat out sketchy and they're not overly exposed, but they can prove to me that what I get out of them is going to have value for me. If I were a kid/young adult, then yes, your Harvards and your Penn States and your Yales and whatnot would have been the best choice, because your brain is primed for that level of learning. I'm way past that.

Also, some of the most notable colleges have the biggest problems. Corinthian, UoP, Kaplan, American InterContinental, Ashford, etc. But it's not about them being for-profit, it's about them being aggressive marketers whose banner ads were all over the Web at one point. All of those colleges were in the FFELP and/or FDLP (I personally visited each and every one as part of FFELP audit), so the idea that being in the Federal program somehow makes you more credible is a fallacy.

adam220891 wrote: »

Just my opinion but WGU is the cheapest and most recognized option. If you can’t make that work, I wouldn’t waste your time or money on anything else. Tuition covers your certs and leverage the self study discipline you already need and will need for future certs after college. Seriously it’s all about ROI and WGU is hard to beat.

Re: WGU, I get that they receive a lot of praise, but we really need to step back, look at and make an attempt to understand the numbers. Being audited by the OIG for not having teachers and getting a recommendation to return over $700 million is not a good sign. Nor is their dropout rate hovering between 26% and 50%. I can attest to the fact they don't have teachers, they don't teach you and you're completely on your own.

And no, it's not about "the government doesn't want CBE!" They do. But they want it done in a way that doesn't turn higher education into a commodity. Otherwise what's the point? If it's "too easy" to get a Bachelor's, what happens? The requirement becomes Masters. If it's "too easy" to get a Masters, what happens? The industry creates some other thing. We saw what happened to the Associates degree which used to be highly regarded.

The original point of college degrees was to show an advanced level of mastery and understanding. It's now relegated to the "high school diploma" level of purpose. And that shouldn't be.

It shouldn't be about "WGU is cheap and you can finish it fast!" - it should be, "will I actually learn something and retain it as useful for a career, while keeping costs reasonable?"

Likewise, if someone has a student loan bill for $20k with no degree to show for it, there's something wrong with the system. In a system where the school doesn't get paid a dime unless that student passes, you wouldn't see orgs like WGU exist at all. But I digress.

Iristheangel wrote: »

I could be reading this wrong but it doesn't look like they have a Bachelor of Science program or any sort of IT undergrad program: Online College Degree Programs - Patten University


Personally, I don't know if going for a BA in a non-IT major is going to score more credibility in the IT industry regardless of whether you're submitting essays or not in the class. I could be reading that wrong or there is some hidden page with their BS IT majors.

I considered that and actually looked at it as a plus for my personal situation.

I have a LOT of tech certs. A LOT. I frequently have to refer to my own LinkedIn to recall specific ones. Here's the first mistake I made: I focused too much on trying to get an IT Bachelor's and not enough on tech certs. As a result there is a gap between the last cert I got and the current certs out there. I never took the time, for example, to go for any of the Cisco certs because I was too focused on a degree, buying into the hype.

Reality: I should have kept to the path, because now, recruiters are using technology to scrape for certifications and doing outreach based on that. Some companies claim to require a degree, some say they do but really don't and will hire you without one provided you check all of the other boxes. My current company had a default requirement for a degree but hired me for a few thousand lower than my asking (which was admittedly a bit high), 2.5 years later I'm paid higher than I ever have been before.

What I learned: ignore the hype. The degree is nice to have but NOT required. It's about finding the niche, getting good at it, getting certifications, getting good at the various technologies, and then self-marketing. Blow off companies that "require" a degree. It's NOT required.

That said, I enrolled for a degree program that would allow me to learn - so it is non-IT for the Bachelors program. This is because I was recently promoted and began to realize that while I'm "base effective" in my new role, there's a lot I still needed to know, and this program checked the boxes. I can - and intend to - go for the IT MBA later, at which point I should be well rounded enough to absorb it.


As a side I've completed the first course for Patten end-to-end - got an A - and the experience overall felt like actual college - like REAL college. It didn't feel like I was "testing out" of anything. It was sufficiently challenging to be credible but not overbearing. At no point did I feel like I could just take a test and get over it. Three essays and a 7-page written project later, with regular communication from the course instructor, I'm feeling good about this school so far. History's next - a subject I used to be good at. This school is NO diploma mill. Not even close.

adam220891

Regarding WGU - I don't know that I would've gotten as much out of it had I not already been in the industry and understood the process of self-education and certification. Of course, that's sort of a pre-req for attending, so it shouldn't be a huge deal. I've been out for a couple of years and still use CBTNuggets and books from Amazon to learn and push forward. I get value out of it even though I don't have anyone forcing me to do it or guiding me along the way. Those things help, but are easier to get at a traditional B&M school.

You may think WGU is too easy or has issues, but it's accredited, recognized, and cheap. Life and work is a game and you need to play it. I was already in the industry and had doors opened that wouldn't have been and make over twice what I had before I got it. For my money, it was a great ROI, regardless of the value of the content/education (which does matter and I found to be acceptable for my cost and expectations).

To each his own.

Danielm7

revelated wrote: »

Nor is their dropout rate hovering between 26% and 50%. I can attest to the fact they don't have teachers, they don't teach you and you're completely on your own.

Kind of a nitpick but this is a frequently misunderstood metric that has been discussed here a few times. From what i understand, the numbers are based on first time college students who started at that school and ended at that school. But if you look at many of their programs, they require either a fair bit of experience, certs, or previous college. So I'd think the people who go to WGU as their first school is probably far less than average.

As for "REAL college", I guess it's relative. I took years of traditional classes where I didn't feel like I got attention and lots of busy work. With WGU I actually finished and it was helpful in my career and I have no loans. For a change of pace I'm doing an MS at a state school now but taking the classes online, and honestly I don't feel like I'm getting some amazing experience by watching class videos and doing solo work. Again, lots of busy work and projects that I feel I could have bypassed and aren't all helping the learning process. And, since I'm not live the only teacher attention I get is via emails if I initiate, which is really no different than I got from WGU.