Salary Counter - Did I push it too hard?

Big-JJ

So I got an offer from one of the investment firms to lead a team last thurs. The offer was 97k (my current is 93k).

Since I will be leading a team of 2 people and my salary will be 97k this July (I work in gov) I countered with 102k (10% increase, thinking 15% might be too aggressive). I sent an email with my counter to HR last Friday morning. HR promptly replied to me by saying "I will look into now and have you updated asap." That was Friday noon. Today, I was hoping to hear something back from them but no news.

I am kind of worried that 10% was a bit too much to ask and may be I should haven taken the offer. But then again, making a move did not feel right without some financial incentive so I decided to go for it.

Did I push too far? Should I be more patient and wait a few more days? I haven't negotiated salary before so not sure what might happen next. Any experience to share?

Thanks

Ertaz

Big-JJ wrote: »

So I got an offer from one of the investment firms to lead a team last thurs. The offer was 97k, which is same as my current salary. Since I will be leading a team of 2 people I countered with 102k (10% increase, thinking 15% might be too aggressive). I sent an email with my counter to HR last Friday morning. HR promptly replied to me by saying "I will look into now and have you updated asap." That was Friday noon. Today, I was hoping to hear something back from them but no news.

I am kind of worried that 10% was a bit too much to ask and may be I should haven taken the offer. But then again, making a move did not feel right without some financial incentive so I decided to go for it.

Did I push too far? Should I be more patient and wait a few more days? I haven't negotiated salary before so not sure what might happen next. Any experience to share?

Thanks

Wouldn’t a 10% increase put you at 106,700? I’ve had a lot of offers die on the vine like that.

paul78

How was the 97K originally arrived at? Was it something that you previously discussed? Also - what was the manner in which you countered with 102k? It all would factor into a decision by your prospective employer.

I know it's really tough, but I think you have to just wait it through for another day or two. There's really only 3 things that can happen (a) they withdraw the offer (b) they say that they already gave you their best offer (c) they meet your counter or somewhere halfway.

The likelihood that they would withdraw the offer really depends on many factors.

As for your question if you pushed too far - it depends - if you think you are worth 102K and you would bring that sort of value to the company, then it's fair to ask.

Good luck!

Big-JJ

Ertaz wrote: »

Wouldn’t a 10% increase put you at 106,700? I’ve had a lot of offers die on the vine like that.

10% from 93k (what i am getting now), not 97k (their offer)

Big-JJ

paul78 wrote: »

How was the 97K originally arrived at? Was it something that you previously discussed? Also - what was the manner in which you countered with 102k? It all would factor into a decision by your prospective employer.

I know it's really tough, but I think you have to just wait it through for another day or two. There's really only 3 things that can happen (a) they withdraw the offer (b) they say that they already gave you their best offer (c) they meet your counter or somewhere halfway.

The likelihood that they would withdraw the offer really depends on many factors.

As for your question if you pushed too far - it depends - if you think you are worth 102K and you would bring that sort of value to the company, then it's fair to ask.

Good luck!

I told HR that my current is 93k and it will become 97k this July. I said without a bit of financial incentive it would be difficult to make the jump, saying a) I will be leading 2 ppl, b) My current employer paid 6k for my masters' and I need to pay them back, c) values and skills learned from my current MBA program.

The reason why I countered was because I was hoping to be get 100k. So, If I countered with 102k, I thought they would likely be back with 100k.

paul78

Big-JJ wrote: »

I told HR that my current is 93k and it will become 97k this July. I said without a bit of financial incentive it would be difficult to make the jump, saying a) I will be leading 2 ppl, b) My current employer paid 6k for my masters' and I need to pay them back, c) values and skills learned from my current MBA program.

The reason why I countered was because I was hoping to be get 100k. So, If I countered with 102k, I thought they would likely be back with 100k.

Interesting - if that's the case and you shared those points with your prospective employer, it sounds like your counter very reasonable. Given those circumstances, it would be surprising to me if they didn't come back with something near your counter. Their offer doesn't really give you any real financial incentive to leave your current job and a competent hiring manager should see that.

TechGuru80

If you are going external to where you are, getting 10-15% is expected unless there is some very strong benefit to the new job that you cannot get anywhere else. Are you in management right now? If you are just jumping to management, the jumps can be a little different initially. 15% isn't too crazy and honestly I probably would have countered with 20% increase....20% isn't insane and it won't be seen as insulting....more than likely if they cannot reach your percent they will either try to increase what they can or they will say first and final offer. I would give them until around Wednesday and then check back with HR to see the status.

Nutsy

You are being very reasonable. Just hold firm. They have made an investment in hiring you. They they thing an extra couple K is too expensive. You don't want them.

LordQarlyn

Big-JJ wrote: »

I told HR that my current is 93k and it will become 97k this July. I said without a bit of financial incentive it would be difficult to make the jump, saying a) I will be leading 2 ppl, b) My current employer paid 6k for my masters' and I need to pay them back, c) values and skills learned from my current MBA program.

The reason why I countered was because I was hoping to be get 100k. So, If I countered with 102k, I thought they would likely be back with 100k.

Well, when negotiating salary, the most common rule of thumb is never justify it with personal matters, employers frankly don't care. Always, always negotiate on the basis of value you bring to the employer. Explain and show how them paying you more will benefit the company and its stakeholders. Highlight the extra skills that they can use. I colleague I know personally had successfully negotiated $20k increase in his offer by demonstrating his expertise in GDPR. He pointed out he can ensure compliance with minimal effort and even serve in the role as the DPO if the company ever required one. His new employer was about to abandon the EU market out of fears of compliance issues. For mere $20k per year, he showed it is still profitable to market to EU customers at a cost effective basis, he showed the company IT infrastructure was already near compliance. The company keeps getting revenue from Europe and he got a big increase in pay, and the company got a bargain if you ask me. That's how you negotiate a higher offer.

It's not something they teach, but everyone regardless of what industry they work should have a strategy for negotiating a salary, they should long before applying, be ready to counter on the basis of what they bring and where they add the value. If you can't think of anything off the top of your head, start going through your work history, look for things. I wager most people have some accomplishments or knowledge they can leverage in salary negotiations (or asking for raises for that matter) and should have a plan prepared highlighting value they bring. Further, preparing and planning for salary negotiations helps you come across strong and confident when countering and that can affect the outcome too.

All that said, for many positions, especially government contracting jobs, there often is little room for salary negotiations since the rates are fixed at a narrow range or even a single rate. I would wait a few more days then contact them if you haven't heard back. You didn't ask for a massive increase, at the least they should tell you they can't match it.

DatabaseHead

You played it just fine.....

I'm a 15% guy myself, either way stick to your guns like others have mentioned.

kabooter

LordQarlyn wrote: »

Well, when negotiating salary, the most common rule of thumb is never justify it with personal matters, employers frankly don't care. Always, always negotiate on the basis of value you bring to the employer. Explain and show how them paying you more will benefit the company and its stakeholders. Highlight the extra skills that they can use. I colleague I know personally had successfully negotiated $20k increase in his offer by demonstrating his expertise in GDPR. He pointed out he can ensure compliance with minimal effort and even serve in the role as the DPO if the company ever required one. His new employer was about to abandon the EU market out of fears of compliance issues. For mere $20k per year, he showed it is still profitable to market to EU customers at a cost effective basis, he showed the company IT infrastructure was already near compliance. The company keeps getting revenue from Europe and he got a big increase in pay, and the company got a bargain if you ask me. That's how you negotiate a higher offer.

It's not something they teach, but everyone regardless of what industry they work should have a strategy for negotiating a salary, they should long before applying, be ready to counter on the basis of what they bring and where they add the value. If you can't think of anything off the top of your head, start going through your work history, look for things. I wager most people have some accomplishments or knowledge they can leverage in salary negotiations (or asking for raises for that matter) and should have a plan prepared highlighting value they bring. Further, preparing and planning for salary negotiations helps you come across strong and confident when countering and that can affect the outcome too.

All that said, for many positions, especially government contracting jobs, there often is little room for salary negotiations since the rates are fixed at a narrow range or even a single rate. I would wait a few more days then contact them if you haven't heard back. You didn't ask for a massive increase, at the least they should tell you they can't match it.

Awesome real life example, does not get any better than this.

paul78

LordQarlyn wrote: »

Well, when negotiating salary, the most common rule of thumb is never justify it with personal matters, employers frankly don't care. Always, always negotiate on the basis of value you bring to the employer...

Great advice and examples.

Just my 2 cents though - employers are people too and depending on the hiring manager or senior leadership, certain personal information could be relevant. For example, if the employer is competing to fill a position where talent acquisition is challenging, it could help to know a candidate's motivational factors to assure that a good offer is generated. It's very situational.

But I agree that in general, if you are unaccustomed to such negotiations, it is best to avoid personal matters.

Big-JJ

So they came back with same salary (97k) but they added one-time signing bonus (7k) if I passed probation, which is 3 month. They also mentioned that there are 2 types of bonuses - one standard 'annual performance' (up to 20%) and the other 'team bonus' (not sure what this is tho).

They wouldn't increase base because I don't have experience in investment industry. So there is a steep learning curve. Although they got someone in team who also applied for this role they saw potential in me and decided to go with me. They said the the offer was final.

TechGuru80

From my experience, always assume any kind of bonus is probably going to payout at 50% of whatever the max is...that doesn't always mean it won't be better or worse but that's a pretty safe number. I have a feeling the "industry experience" comment is just some random thing they are saying to avoid paying more but honestly that sounds like a pretty good deal....salary and bonus you will probably be around $105-110k.

snokerpoker

Very sound advice on this thread. Negotiating salary is super difficult. Especially if you really want the job. Sounds like you did everything right and their response seemed reasonable as well.

Good luck!

josephandre

I'd jump on that personally. It's more money than you're currently making and matches what your pending raise is. The sign on bonus offset's the difference in what you were asking for, but you get it lump sum which is nice. The only hitch would have been that that's a one time deal but with the new information of bonuses, it seems like a no brainer.

congrats.

LordQarlyn

Big-JJ wrote: »

So they came back with same salary (97k) but they added one-time signing bonus (7k) if I passed probation, which is 3 month. They also mentioned that there are 2 types of bonuses - one standard 'annual performance' (up to 20%) and the other 'team bonus' (not sure what this is tho).

They wouldn't increase base because I don't have experience in investment industry. So there is a steep learning curve. Although they got someone in team who also applied for this role they saw potential in me and decided to go with me. They said the the offer was final.

I would go for it. The 20% bonus is actually pretty good, you have the potential to increase your income by a fifth each year. It's almost the same as getting 116.4k per year, except a big chunk will be in a lump sum. The sign on bonus is just icing on the cake.

paul78

Big-JJ wrote: »

So they came back with same salary (97k) but they added one-time signing bonus (7k) if I passed probation, which is 3 month. They also mentioned that there are 2 types of bonuses - one standard 'annual performance' (up to 20%) and the other 'team bonus' (not sure what this is tho).

They wouldn't increase base because I don't have experience in investment industry. So there is a steep learning curve. Although they got someone in team who also applied for this role they saw potential in me and decided to go with me. They said the the offer was final.

Congrats!!! - the signing bonus sounds like good news.

Personally, I would jump on it. I've worked in financial services and in particular investment management for the past 30 years and there definitely can be a steep learning curve. But if you make the best of it and really learn the industry, it's an industry that tends to pay very well.

Also - in most mature FI and fintech firms, if they changed your offer to be bonus eligible, did they say if they changed your level? There's usually a big difference between a role that is bonus eligible or not. Also - team/org bonus's usually are offered to all employees (was that not in your original offer). Is the bonus in cash or stock? That's the only other question that you may want to clarify if it's a public company and it's not clear in the offer. Personally, I've always preferred stock if I believe in the company. And if it's a public company, it would be nice if there was an employee stock purchase plan, which would be another nice incentive.

I'm a big fan of variable compensation and I would also prefer a job that has variable components over just plain salary any day.

Congrats again.

TechGromit

Big-JJ wrote: »

So I got an offer from one of the investment firms to lead a team last thurs. The offer was 97k (my current is 93k).

They wanted to offer you a 3% raise and your sweating it? Unless your going to be unemployed soon (like your government contract ending) why do you even care? Unless there are bonuses involved, I wouldn't even consider leaving for a 3% raise, far too much risk for too little reward. You get end up with a boss you hate, co-workers from hell, expected to put in insane hours, stressful work culture, etc. There a 100 things how a new job can go wrong, don't jump at ship for a lousy 3% raise if your ship isn't sinking, unless your current work environment is toxic.

Big-JJ wrote: »

They also mentioned that there are 2 types of bonuses - one standard 'annual performance' (up to 20%) and the other 'team bonus' (not sure what this is tho).

If bonuses are involved take the job, I was targeted to get a 10% bonus a year, it ended up being almost 15% one year. My bonus targets are now 15%. With a bonus, your looking at a 20% increase + what even this team bonus is.

TechGromit

TechGuru80 wrote: »

From my experience, always assume any kind of bonus is probably going to payout at 50% of whatever the max is...that doesn't always mean it won't be better or worse but that's a pretty safe number.

This hasn't been my experience, so long as your not a complete screw up, all my bonuses have been at least the targeted percentage, usually more. Last year our bonuses were 117% the target number. So if you normally get a 10% bonus, your bonus was 11.7% of your salary. And this is base, if you get a really good end of the year evaluation, it can be much higher.

Big-JJ

TechGromit wrote: »

They wanted to offer you a 3% raise and your sweating it? Unless your going to be unemployed soon (like your government contract ending) why do you even care? Unless there are bonuses involved, I wouldn't even consider leaving for a 3% raise, far too much risk for too little reward. You get end up with a boss you hate, co-workers from hell, expected to put in insane hours, stressful work culture, etc. There a 100 things how a new job can go wrong, don't jump at ship for a lousy 3% raise if your ship isn't sinking, unless your current work environment is toxic.

Oh, forgot to mention...I am a full-timer at local gov, not a contractor. My pay will automatically go up every year but it maxes out at 107k and of course...we got the pension. That's what makes this decision hard. My plan is to go out and get management experience and ultimately come back to public sector and continue with my pension with potentially higher salary which is possible. But at the same time, I am afraid that I might not be able to move back into the public.

I am leaning toward not taking the offer and stay with where I am.

Danielm7

You can run the math on the pension value, time taken, etc, to see how much it contributes to your total comp. A friend of mine worked a very underpaid job in tech for his whole career for the pension, I'm making more than double what he is, but he insists it's better with the pension. At a certain point it just doesn't make sense.

TechGromit

Big-JJ wrote: »

Oh, forgot to mention...I am a full-timer at local gov, not a contractor. My pay will automatically go up every year but it maxes out at 107k and of course...we got the pension. That's what makes this decision hard.

It's always hard to leave a job your happy at, especially a job with solid job security. Chasing the money is not always the better choice. I recall when I was a computer operator at a casino, I was getting paid $7.85 a hour, and people selling change on the casino floor were making $10 a hour to start. If I chased the money, sure I could have made more money, but it wasn't something I wanted to do, and besides, those jobs are long gone, no casino deals in coins anymore, it's all cash and coupons. Most of the good paying casino jobs are gone in fact, With tips, Dealers, Slot Attendants, Slot Techs, Security people were pulling down 80 to 100k a year with only a high school education most of it in tips, under the table money, tax free.

Personally I think job security trumps a few extra dollars in pay, but 20%+ bonuses is a lot more than a few extra $, I wager it's more than your pension accumulation rate each year.

soccarplayer29

Danielm7 wrote: »

You can run the math on the pension value, time taken, etc, to see how much it contributes to your total comp. A friend of mine worked a very underpaid job in tech for his whole career for the pension, I'm making more than double what he is, but he insists it's better with the pension. At a certain point it just doesn't make sense.

^this. You're using the automatic pay raises and pension as a crutch and I think it's going to hold you back. Yes that government "certainty" is nice but the experience you gain at the other position, the signing bonus, annual bonus, and likely higher annual pay increases vs. gov't scale is much more attractive to me.

Are those gov't benefits worth 20k more a year?

DatabaseHead

soccarplayer29 wrote: »

^this. You're using the automatic pay raises and pension as a crutch and I think it's going to hold you back. Yes that government "certainty" is nice but the experience you gain at the other position, the signing bonus, annual bonus, and likely higher annual pay increases vs. gov't scale is much more attractive to me.

Are those gov't benefits worth 20k more a year?

Don't you only have to work N amount of years before you claim full pension, which is 50 - 60% of your high 3 - 5? And you get to keep your subsidized insurance rate?

These are statements and questions just checking..... Which means if you get in early enough you could move onto a higher paying job after you meet those years of service requirements/

MalwareMike

When do you have to let them know by?