PLEASE HELP... job questions

mkjoung

Hello - I'm not sure what the right decision is so please help!

I graduated from a 4 year school in 2016 with an IT degree and have about 2 years~ of helpdesk experience. After working as helpdesk, I thought I could take on jr sysadmin roles so I studied and got a cert (security+) and started job searching. After 2 months of searching, I was able to land a job at a hedgefund in NYC as a "system engineer". I put quotes because the role itself is half helpdesk and half system work. I like the role and the company, in a way, but my team is the problem. There are about 5 other guys who are dull and a**hole kinda guys. Very short with their words and really do not like to help or answer questions. They all graduated from elite schools so definitely high level of confidence and intelligence and knowledge within the field. Me, having such little experience and not much knowledge, always have questions - especially when working on system related projects. And when I started looking for a new role, I wanted to go to a place where I can have a mentor who is a sysadmin who can help me not only with my tasks but also guide me in the right direction in my career. With that, I have really been stressing out and been depressed and anxious going into work everyday. So I would really like to quit. So with this, my questions are..

1. Salary with this role is 80k.. with 2 years of experience I am expecting to find a job around 65k if I did quit and looked for a new job. Is that worth to give up?
2. How bad is it to leave a 4 month experience on resume? I feel like I can explain pretty well that it wasn't the right fit for me.
3. If I did quit, I am expecting myself to be unemployed for about 3 months (estimating) - so I am planning on applying and studying for a new cert (maybe ccna or msca) within this time. Is this not a good idea to quit a job and study for a cert?

So I guess overall, my question is - is it okay to quit with a 4 month experience giving up such a high paying job and being unemployed for a few months (expected) and taking that time to apply and study for a new cert?

PLEASE HELP!!! I really need it....
Thanks for taking time to read my concern.

FlyOnTheWall

I just don't think it's a good idea to quit your job to study. You can take this is an excellent learning opportunity in learning how to deal co-workers that you don't like, yet still showing up every day with a good attitude and excelling. Believe me, this is a very important skill worth developing. This is an opportunity for you to learn while you also plan and execute your exit strategy.

Leaving a very good job after 4 months to become unemployed may not be as easy as you think to explain away to a potential employer. That is quite the red flag imo. The key part is that you're leaving that job to become unemployed, as opposed to leaving to go to another job that may be a better fit or provide better learning opportunities. No matter how well you explain it away, the employer will have to keep this in the back of their mind during their decision making process.

I would study for that next cert while working. Learn everything you possibly can at your current job, study for the cert, keep your resume updated and keep your eyes open. There is no harm in applying to jobs that seem like a good fit while studying/working also. You don't have to quit, then study for the cert, then apply to jobs. You can work, study, and apply for jobs all at the same time. Good luck

mikey88

mkjoung wrote: »

There are about 5 other guys who are dull and a**hole kinda guys. Very short with their words and really do not like to help or answer questions.

Wait, the whole team is full of assholes? Maybe it's a NYC thing lol. But seriously, your plan may be flawed if you think you'll find a "mentor" just by switching jobs.

It takes time to build that relationship with your coworkers where they can come to you for help and you doing the same. Why not ride it out and try to learn as much as you can (MCSA cert). Personally, I would not quit an 80k job without having something lined up first.

Will one 4mo role look bad on your resume? No, but it can be if you do it too often.

willieb

Wow, very tough questions to answer. Unfortunately only you will be able to answer them but maybe a few of us here can help. I've been in IT for nearly 20 years and management for 12, so I've seen all kinds of personalities.

Is $80k a good salary for NYC? I dunno but anyway... If you can consider quitting doing without 3 months of an $80k salary then I'd say you are managing your money well so kudos to you for that.

I don't know your whole story but based on what you gave, 4 months isn't long at a job so I wouldn't give up just yet. Are they in the same role you are? They probably still see you as the "new guy" that doesn't know as much as them. It will take you a while to ramp up to your position, so take opportunities when you can to learn as much as possible. Big egos will get them nowhere. They can be confident but respectful and at the same time not be boastful and a butt about it.

Maybe get to know them a little better and try to connect personally some how. Surely out of 5 people you can find 1 that's willing to help you. In the mean time you hopefully can find time to study for certs while still working there. When they see you advancing in your knowledge and gaining certs hopefully they will give you more respect and friendship.

In the end no one wants to go to a job every day hating it. It gets to a point where it's not worth it. That's why ultimately it's your decision.

DZA_

1. Salary with this role is 80k.. with 2 years of experience I am expecting to find a job around 65k if I did quit and looked for a new job. Is that worth to give up?

An old peer use to say to me that you are your own business in an enterprise. If you personally feel that you're not able to run your own business and not getting the results that you're aiming for, you're looking for alternatives. If you feel that you're not getting your results that you need, it's a sign. Given that it's a hedge fund startup, I assume that they can dish up higher salaries, how does this compare to the general cost of living in NYC? From an outsider perspective, 2 years of experience for 80k USD seems quite a bit.



2. How bad is it to leave a 4 month experience on resume? I feel like I can explain pretty well that it wasn't the right fit for me.


Considering that this is not your first gig, I've read an article that the minimum that you want to stay at an employer is for 1 year. After that, if the workplace get's really bad then you can easily defend yourself when explaining why you were there only 1 year vs 4 months. If it's decent and you can go through the trenches for another 6 more months, then I can recommend to toughening it out.


3. If I did quit, I am expecting myself to be unemployed for about 3 months (estimating) - so I am planning on applying and studying for a new cert (maybe ccna or msca) within this time. Is this not a good idea to quit a job and study for a cert?


Recommend to land a job before getting a cert. Certifications and personal education can come AFTER when you have landed a full time position for job security.

scaredoftests

Stay put for awhile. Learn on your own at work. Is your manager a ---hole as well? Maybe he can answer some of your questions.

mzx380

No offense to the OP but when taking into consideration your background and credentials, the salary is pretty high for you. It'd be a mistake to give this job up voluntarily just because people are being mean to you. The industry (and job market) are super competitive and you will experience challenges all the time. Take this as a learning experience and persevere.

chapter

That's a lot of money. Wish my work would pay me that ...anyways, I would assign 1hour to ask colleagues questions everyday an MAKE SURE you take notes. I know folks who wont teach/show you stuff because ...'you have asked the question before' or 'I've already shown you how to do that'. So I have always taken notes when I am asking the more experienced folks. Develop relationships with all IT teams ...i.e. have contacts in all teams. After a year everyone will be asking you stuff. I did the same were I work. After a year I had a list of contacts from all major IT depts. My area of work wasn't too technical but I knew who does what and who to talk to ...to get things done fast. That's how I added value and as a result got taught/shown more stuff. It's only a matter of time till you know your way around. btw I am still learning and don't get frustrated because they know more today, tomorrow you will all be equal. And take one of those hard certs like CISSP to build your confidence.

volfkhat

After giving it some thought...
Gonna have to go the other way on this one.

mkjoung wrote: »

...but my team is the problem. There are about 5 other guys who are dull and a**hole kinda guys. Very short with their words and really do not like to help or answer questions. They all graduated from elite schools so definitely high level of confidence and intelligence and knowledge within the field. Me, having such little experience and not much knowledge, always have questions.

1) What kind of username is mkjoung?
Is it just a random identifier you came up with?
Or is it part of your actual name: joung.
I did a quick google-image search on that name: i see a bunch of Pacific-Rim faces.
Does this match your description?

What is the ethnicity of your team?
Are they a diverse cast of "guys"? Various Ages & Colors?
Do any of them look like you?

Perhaps i am waay off base here... but i have learned to trust my gut.

mkjoung wrote: »

...Me, having such little experience and not much knowledge, always have questions - especially when working on system related projects.
And when I started looking for a new role, I wanted to go to a place where I can have a mentor who is a sysadmin who can help me not only with my tasks but also guide me in the right direction in my career.

There is Nothing wrong with wanting to be in an environment were you can be mentored and encouraged to learn new things.

mkjoung wrote: »

...With that, I have really been stressing out and been depressed and anxious going into work everyday. So I would really like to quit.

Hey man, those sound like indicators of a bad/toxic workplace imo.
I don't care what everyone else said in this thread; you can't put a price on your own wellbeing.
if you feel (in your heart) that you need to get the heck outta there..., then Get the Heck Outta There.

Granted,
It's possible that you have it all wrong.
Maybe your team is just really competitive... and maybe you just need to push-through in order to earn their acceptance.


Or maybe not.
It's been 4 months.
Maybe it's prejudice (but just speculation at this point).



by the way,
if you think you want to be a sysadmin... then don't worry about the ccna; the mcsa is probably the better fit.
But that cert is 3 examinations; would realistically take you 6-9 months to complete (if not longer).

And don't worry about the 4-month employment hurting your resume.
You can always ****.
a) List the job on your resume as: March 2018 - Present.
you can better explain how it was a 'bad fit' during your next interview.
b) or,
you can just leave it off your resume completely (imply that you are unemployed).

keep us posted :]

mkjoung

Thank you all for your replies. I really don't know why but everyday when I am in the office my heart beats very fast and I start to get very anxious. It's not like I'm getting yelled at or anything - actually it's the opposite. They don't bother me at all - they don't really know what I'm working on and they don't really seem to care? or anything. I'm not really asked what I'm working on or if I need help with anything. Some days I'm just blankly staring at my screen for 10 hours. With this, I am pretty much on my own for a lot of the stuff until I start asking. I have had 0 guidance since I started and will always be like that. When I'm given tasks, it's literally just put on my to do list and I am expected to tackle it without any explanation of what I'm doing. So I would sit there trying to figure something out and after hours of struggling I would finally ask them and the answers would be very short without any explanations. And I think I'm anxious because of this - especially because I am also (almost soley) in charge of the helpdesk. If someone calls, I have to pick up, noone will unless I am away from my desk. And when I pick up, sometimes I dont know what to do because I've never been guided much. And I think some of the anxiety comes from this.

So with all this... is it still worth the 80k salary. I really just don't know and just so stressed out.... Thanks guys.

stryder144

OP: I would recommend that you start looking for a job, but do not quit until you have one in hand. Employment gaps can be tricky to explain, even if you quit due to a toxic work environment. Additionally, what systems are you using? Are you using Microsoft technologies? Do you touch them frequently? If so, then start working toward your MCSA in those technologies with an eye toward getting the MCSE. That will set you up for a better position, potentially, and one that may be more in line with your current salary.

cyberguypr

OP, can you please answer what scaredoftests asked? Is your manager aware of your concerns? Unless I am missing something or you didn't explain seems like you haven't communicated this.

supasecuritybro

mkjoung wrote: »

Thank you all for your replies. I really don't know why but everyday when I am in the office my heart beats very fast and I start to get very anxious. It's not like I'm getting yelled at or anything - actually it's the opposite. They don't bother me at all - they don't really know what I'm working on and they don't really seem to care? or anything. I'm not really asked what I'm working on or if I need help with anything. Some days I'm just blankly staring at my screen for 10 hours. With this, I am pretty much on my own for a lot of the stuff until I start asking. I have had 0 guidance since I started and will always be like that. When I'm given tasks, it's literally just put on my to do list and I am expected to tackle it without any explanation of what I'm doing. So I would sit there trying to figure something out and after hours of struggling I would finally ask them and the answers would be very short without any explanations. And I think I'm anxious because of this - especially because I am also (almost soley) in charge of the helpdesk. If someone calls, I have to pick up, noone will unless I am away from my desk. And when I pick up, sometimes I dont know what to do because I've never been guided much. And I think some of the anxiety comes from this.

So with all this... is it still worth the 80k salary. I really just don't know and just so stressed out.... Thanks guys.

I would like to encourage you with some thoughts but please understand I am not in your shoes, so please take it with a grain of slat.

It sounds like to me (my opinion here) that you had some expectations as in to what you were supposed to be receiving when you got into your role. If this was set by the person who hired you then you would be right in feeling that way. If not, then you need to just take a moment and make a list of the things you are lost on. Learn to google your way to an answer. That was the advice I got when I started my first role as a DBA when I made a move from hardware support tech to DBA. No experience. I felt like I was lost most of the time, but slowly I got my footing. It took longer than four months.

The co-worker situation is a tricky one since some teams feel like they got a groove and when a new person comes in asking questions, it can turn into a blood bath. If they are not insulting you and just seemed annoyed that you asked something, then that is just a personality driven issue that can be resolved by you putting in some effort to learn on your own and make it a last resort to ask. I know that still to this day, my team and I will work on something, research and run out of options. Mostly because we all that a lot our plates and try to not slow each other down. Some things are collaborations and we will work together on it so it balances out.

As far as mentorship, you will have to find that elsewhere. Become part of a meetup for tech professionals or study groups. NYC has a lot going on all the time and I would imagine that is the case. You have to find what you need in this field. Being in a place where you have a mentor will be a bit but that does not mean you have to leave your job to find it.

One last thing, please make a list what you are not understanding and build it on a virtual machine and replicate it. Teach yourself. This is one of the biggest conversations I have with people wanting to get into the Cyber field. They say they want more experience but do not lab something up or research ways to do it. We have such an advantage these days to be able to build what we are trying to learn with very little money. Only your time is what is required.

DO NOT BE DISCOURAGED BY THIS JOB AND USE IT TO LEARN AND GROW!!

mkjoung

cyberguypr wrote: »

OP, can you please answer what scaredoftests asked? Is your manager aware of your concerns? Unless I am missing something or you didn't explain seems like you haven't communicated this.

I told him it's hard adjusting with the strong personalities in the team and he said yeah I understand but I guess that's how you learn to work with different types of people. He is a very nice manager - one of the reasons why I haven't quit yet.

LonerVamp

Not everyone gets "mentors."

Not everyone wants to share their work with someone else, either. Lots of tech folk get comfortable in their place, and don't really want to show someone else how to do what they do

Just trying to offer a little bit of reality here. Good luck!

volfkhat

LonerVamp wrote: »

Not everyone gets "mentors."

Not everyone wants to share their work with someone else, either. Lots of tech folk get comfortable in their place, and don't really want to show someone else how to do what they do

Just trying to offer a little bit of reality here. Good luck!

I respect what you are saying, but....

In my 5 previous places of employment....

'2' of them... i had No mentors; but mainly because it was a 1-man IT dept (literally no one else to learn from).

The other 3 stops,
PLENTY of opportunities to learn/ment/tutOR from my Teammates.
These were amazing experiences for me.

Actually... i just realized something.
The former 2 jobs... i was paid more.

But, in the latter 3 jobs.... i learned more.

In hindsight, the 2 higher paying jobs.... were Not worth it.
just my 2 cents

mkjoung

So how bad is it to be unemployed and looking for a new job? how hard does this make the job search? Also, how's the idea of quitting to study for a cert? thinking MCSA.

scaredoftests

It sucks. It is better to HAVE a job while you look for one. You can study for certs while employed, it doesn't make sense to quit a job for that.

paul78

@OP - just read through this thread. Just curious - what were your expectations in a job like that? Nothing you described seems unusual to me. It sounds like you believe that your manager is a decent person. Have you asked for feedback? I.e. have you asked your manager how you are doing and what you can do to improve or be move valuable to the firm? For all you know, they think you are doing fine.

I have about 30 years in financial services and many hedge-funds and investment firms in NYC and CT area are made up of high-performers and there is usually a high-performance cultural attitude. So there's going to be an expectation that employees are self-motivated. If you are lucky, there is even some expectation of self-direction which sounds like it exists where you work.

4 months is a very short time. Since you are in NYC - you will have ample opportunities to go to meetups as others suggest. That's a great way to meet folks that could provide some guidance. And if not - it could be a way to expand your network and maybe find a role that fits better with you.

BTW - for those that commented on the salary - 80K in NYC in fintech or financial services with 2 years is not unreasonable. It's been a few years since I was hiring engineers, but software engineers coming out of a boot-camp with a CS degree can start around 90K in NYC.

MeanDrunkR2D2

Since you are new to this role and duties I will ask this question which could explain why you feel like the guys may be "a-holes".

Are you asking them the same question for issues more than once? How much time are you putting into researching what the best thing to do to fix that issue before you go right to them? If you are just getting a ticket with something you aren't familiar with and not putting any research into seeing if there is a documented fix for that issue it will make most sys admins avoid helping you out right away to force you to put in some work to learn and figure it out.

Now, they just may be jerks and that's fine. But to expect the next place to be magical with a mentor that will sit down and show you everything you will likely have a bad time. Stick it out. Read the internal wikis and document the things you fix if there isn't. Take notes so you don't have to ask them twice how to fix the same thing when it breaks again. It's easy when being exposed to new stuff to just feel like you will fail and not even put in the time. The only time you should go to them immediately is when something critical breaks.

mkjoung

Okay let me give everyone an example of what I think is an "*******" or "unhelpful" teammate. So how things are done here is, well at least for me, things are just thrown on my todo list in a shared board and those are my tasks. So the guy that trains me put a couple of things on my list but hasn't spoken a word about the things he's thrown on my list. I don't know if he ever expects me to get them done or if he (or rest of the team) cares. It's just like okay it's on your list, you know what you have to work on so good luck. What bothers me the most is one of the things he specifically asked me to do - he and I and everyone on the team knows I need his help because I need to update something on DC and I don't have enough privilege to even remote into the DC - but he's never asked me or brought up anything about it - he KNOWS I need his help, at the very least his creds to remote into the DC. Like does he not care that I'm on the team now or he just acts like I don't exist? Am I the odd one here or is it normal for me to feel like this place is really not good for my future in terms of growth.

paul78

mkjoung wrote: »

... things are just thrown on my todo list in a shared board and those are my tasks. So the guy that trains me put a couple of things on my list but hasn't spoken a word about the things he's thrown on my list. I don't know if he ever expects me to get them done....

So - is it a Kanban workflow of some sort? Couple of suggestions that you may want to consider:

1) If you are blocked, can you mark the task as having a blocking requirement? Most Kanban board software support those concepts.
2) Do you have 1:1 with your manager? When you review your open tasks - do you mention the tasks where you have blocking requirements.
3) Most companies have calendar-ing Did you try to schedule a time with the team-mate to do that task?
4) Is the team ticket-driven? Can you create a task/ticket for your team-mate so that the correct privs are granted to you?

I personally would have started with something like #4.

NetworkNewb

Do you guys communicate at all?? Sounds like a lot of questions should be easily talked about by just asking them...

"I don't know if he ever expects me to get them done or if he (or rest of the team) cares. It's just like okay it's on your list, you know what you have to work on so good luck. "

Maybe he actually thinks you might know what to do?

"he and I and everyone on the team knows I need his help because I need to update something on DC and I don't have enough privilege to even remote into the DC - but he's never asked me or brought up anything about it - he KNOWS I need his help, at the very least his creds to remote into the DC. "

Any chance that person might have just forgot to give you this access? Have you asked him for this access or just hoping he gives it to you someday? Just going off what you wrote, kinda sounds like you're making zero attempt to communicate and expecting him to know what you are thinking and needing. I could definitely be wrong though, maybe they are being a$$ho735 tho...

backtracker

NetworkNewb wrote: »

Maybe he actually thinks you might know what to do?

"he and I and everyone on the team knows I need his help because I need to update something on DC and I don't have enough privilege to even remote into the DC - but he's never asked me or brought up anything about it - he KNOWS I need his help, at the very least his creds to remote into the DC

Using this logic and playing devils advocate for the employer here:

Does the environment use access management (PIM/PAM setup?) Maybe you are supposed to know how to request the elevated privileges?

Worst case they actually already configured everything for your access (JEA PowerShell) and you don't know how to use it?

Worth considering to make sure the ball is not supposed to be in your court.

yuddhidhtir

It's very bad, telling from my experience. I know the stress,anxiety and how you may be feeling. But trust me it's always better to leave only when you get a offer. Try to calm yourself down, boost your confidence, always think that once you crack a interview you will leave this place. So prepare yourself for the interview, apply daily for jobs. Trust me its easier then to explain to HR why you left provided they ask you for the interview in the first place.

willieb

Sounds like it's a simple lack of communication issue. Go to your manager and express all of these concerns, ask what's expected of you, and others when you need something.

The good thing is you said he's a nice manager, therefore I would think he would be easier to talk to than the others. If you have a question, ask your manager. Tell him you have a lot of questions and is it ok if you ask them to him. If he's a good manager he will want you to ask the questions and will be glad to answer them for you.

Everything you are telling us, ask your manager. Of course some things you may need to reword so not to have a negative impact.

He may think you know what to do already. Good managers communicate well, so let him be your place to ask questions and get answers if the others want to be butts.

LionelTeo

Quitting without a job is actually more damaging to your career because it will put you into a situation where you will have to explain the employment gaps to your future employer. However, if you are really unhappy about your workplace, you should consider continuing applying for jobs and keep your options open.

Since that you mention your interests on getting into sysadmin roles, you can use this to let your prospective employers know you are really keen into sysadmin which is why you are looking. You definitely had to be prepared on answering some of the questions regarding your current role job interest that will likely be raised by your prospective employer.

The good news is that you had at least 2 years plus of job experience to show you can commit to a right environment. Based on the past working experience, you can further explain that you enjoy staying and commit to a company if the role is something that keeps you interested. Then you can let the future employer know that you enjoy challenging work since learning while contributing actively is something you are looking out on. But you should add that although you enjoy taking on new challenges, you felt that going into a sysadmin is an area of challenge you are more keen on as compare to your current role. With sufficient preparation, you can convince your next employer on why you will be interested in a job switch.

As for the current difficulties you had with your current workplace, you can try to think about the "words" used in the statement for each question you asked and find the most effective way to construct the statement. There is a subtle difference between "Can you" vs "do you" vs "is it okay" when asking for a favour. For example, you can try explaining that you need help in this area as you haven't encountered on this before, and ask them is it alright if they share with you how to do it. Asking in a correct manner can make it harder for people to reject, such as using "is it alright/okay" when asking a question. There is lesser chance people will say no as most people don't usually answer “not okay" or "not alright" in response to a question that starts with "is it alright/okay".