What does it take to be considered?

TrunksXV

I have a question. Given the number of job ads for IT roles, demanding all kinds of things, it kinda feels like it's a rat race to the bottom for these roles. If an organization states they want a four year degree, in addition to all these certifications, experiences etc. My mind goes like....really? Did the people who wrote these job ads, really have a true grasp of the industry and what can realistically available? I will get my Associates Degree next year, but even then I'm not that hopeful about landing a tech role that will pay me anything. I've been working a low wage job in the meantime and getting more certs. And I'm hoping that this sacrifice in money and time will get me into a better position at some point. But I don't exactly have high expectations like I used to. I am capable of earning a CASP+ and eventually a CISSP, and any other certification that is offered that I can afford to take, but I'm kinda disheartened by the job ads. The demand so much, that honestly I have to ask if this stuff is for real or its just a scam. The best thing that I would suggest is for the job boards like Indeed and ZipRecruiter, limit the number of characters that a job advertisement can use. Anywhere between 100 - 500 words tops. Maybe less. By making everything in long form, these organizations can pretty much throw anything they jolly well wish into these advertisements and not only does that turn people off, this stuff doesn't exactly say that they will pay the individual for all this capacity within the context of an 8 hr day or a 40-80 hour work week. So here's a good question for everyone, what does it take to be considered?

yoba222

TrunksXV said:

". . .Did the people who wrote these job ads, really have a true grasp of the industry and what can realistically available? . . "

Actually no they don't. HR people are usually on the dumber end of the spectrum and probably don't know what half of the acronyms actually mean. I suggest applying anyways.

Picture it from their point of view. They might think "We have eight applicants this week, but none of them happen to have a bachelor's degree. Okay we'll start with whoever has an associate's degree . . ." and so on down the line. IT is not like the medical field, where you can't do surgery or prescribe drugs without the right licensing. Many things are negotiable.

TrunksXV

I do have this idea that it seems like there is this mindset that just doesn't work in the culture.

Having watched some DevOps and Netfilx video, I think it helps look at modern HR departments. They are mostly staffed by females, and they generally speaking don't work on cars. I work in a car dealership and all the women work in HR, all the men work in the repair shop. That culture is dominate in every part of the auto industry.

The idea here is workplace culture. If an HR person isn't really concerned about all this, they will just load up the advertisement with stuff that has nothing to do with the actual position. Which says more about their workplace culture then anything else. And if you would really want to work with them? I'm not sure. Unless they are going to give you about six figures and transform your life, I just don't know.

UnixGuy

Landing the first job is the hardest step, in IT or any other careers really.

What do you think it takes to land your first Medical doctor job? 10+ yrs of education and unpaid training

First job in Accounting? 4 yrs degree with good grades, competing with thousands of graduates

First job as a Pharmacist? potentially 5+ yrs of education (depending on your location).

you get the point.

My recommendation to you is to focus on YOU, and don't focus too much on what HR does, what their gender is, and how they spend their time. You are your only priority.

Right now you have no IT experience, that's what's stopping you, it's not your lack of CISSP.

Do whatever it takes to get your foot in the door, search this forum for posts on how to get your foot in the door and learn from others. Job descriptions are wish-lists, so don't be disheartened. There are hundreds of threads on this forum that talk about that.

** Practical ways to get some experience under your belt:

1. Look for volunteering opportunities if they exist. Have you looked at any?

2. Create a home lab using virtual machines or cloud instances, Lab Lab Lab, build things, break things, get your hands dirty with some technologies. Add the lab experience to your resume. Your time is better off spent here than in worrying about HR.

3. Look for entry level help desk jobs, start there and work your way up. I don't think you lack certifications, you have more than what's required for a service desk position. Get your foot in the door FIRST.

Jon_Cisco

When I was graduating 25 years ago I was worried because every position advertised wanted experience. Every class that graduated before and after me had the same concerns. There is not a single employed person in this world that was born with experience.

As Unixguy stated the first job is the hardest. Keep applying and keep updating your approach. Send a few resumes a week and customize them to the positions. If you get interviews take notes after. Interviewing is a skill that most of us don't practice but the more you do it the more comfortable you will become.

When you do get your first opportunity then it is up to you to shine. Once you are given a job you need to prove yourself and you will do fine.

TrunksXV

I already do have paid experience in the field. Its just that in my local area, the degree positions are always on the job boards. So its not that I don't lack experience, or education, I don't even intend to look until this time next year. My goal is to see if I can get boost my resume to the point where I would get more consideration despite not having 3+ years of paid experience. I do have 1 year of paid experience, and I do have skills, but I don't know what kind of skills the market is demanding at any given time.

UnixGuy

TrunksXV said:

 I do have 1 year of paid experience, and I do have skills, but I don't know what kind of skills the market is demanding at any given time.

The job ads should  give you clues as to what the job market wants, so create a list of skills required for the jobs that you're targeting. Create a home lab, practice those skills. 1x yr of experience is a good start, but there is a lot more to learn. You're doing the right thing by pursuing certs until you apply for your next job. I can't emphasize the importance of a home Lab enough.

Any reason why you haven't applied yet? why wait for next year? What if you apply to a bunch jobs now and you get selected? IF you don't get selected, then at least you get more interview experience, and you get to test what the market really wants - a lot better than theorizing about it.

TrunksXV

I'm in a position where it works with my school schedule. The position doesn't pay anything, but it does cover enough of the bases to finally finish school inspite of this. I've been taking the long term approach to this over the last few years. Finish college, get more certs, hang onto my current job and then I'll see if I can get a better job with what I've got.

UnixGuy

TrunksXV said:

I'm in a position where it works with my school schedule. The position doesn't pay anything, but it does cover enough of the bases to finally finish school inspite of this. I've been taking the long term approach to this over the last few years. Finish college, get more certs, hang onto my current job and then I'll see if I can get a better job with what I've got.

Fair enough, good luck! Keep an eye on IT jobs. you never know, a job might come up that accomodates your school.

Keep us posted with your progress mate

NetworkNewb

Way to many "general" Comptia certs I see in your signature.   Get some more advanced certs in a technology you are interested in and in demand imo.     Server+... no one asks for that.   PenTest+... no one is gonna even know what that means.    Don't be scared to aim higher and push yourself, only way you are really gonna get ahead. 

TrunksXV

PenTest+ and Server+ by themselves won't mean much. But together they do mean more. It's kinda like a coin collection. If the set is complete then its worth something, if its not complete with one or two coins, then its not worth anything. But taken collectively it does tell the employer this guy is willing to put in a grind even if the information provided may not be relevant to the role. But still if its technology related it's another block that fits into the whole puzzle. 

As for more advanced certs, I can't afford to take some of the more advanced stuff, because there are pre-requisits and you have to pay for a training course, which I don't have the money to do. So I'm doing what i can afford to do right now. 

God only knows if the path I'm on will lead to a better paying position. 

TechGromit

TrunksXV said:

... If an organization states they want a four year degree, in addition to all these certifications, experiences etc. My mind goes like....really? Did the people who wrote these job ads, really have a true grasp of the industry and what can realistically available?

... The best thing that I would suggest is for the job boards like Indeed and ZipRecruiter, limit the number of characters that a job advertisement can use. ...

Often Help Wanted ads are written by someone in HR that may or may not have any clue what the hiring manager is really looking for. I've applied for jobs in the past that had knowledge / experience requirements that had nothing to do with the actual job. So long as you meet some of the job requirements I'd still apply anyway.

Personally I believe job boards like Monster, Indeed, dice, zip recruiter are all a waste of time.  With Scams, recruiters, stale jobs reposted as "new", etc. Your far better off searching for and applying for jobs directly with companies your interested in. You should have a list of large employers career portals in your area and check what job posting they have every week. While not a easy or convenient as just checking monster, you eliminate all the scams, recruiters, outdating listing, etc, and your left for good solid job leads.  Job boards like Monster aren't completely worthless, there will be small outfits that are too small to have there own career portal, and larger companies you were not aware are in your area, but I would take the information you learn from monster and add the larger companies career portal to your list of businesses you check weekly.       

TrunksXV

Good points. It seems like Job boards that are mainstream have too many issues with them if virtually anyone can post on them. There is so much junk jobs, and so much fake stuff you'd have to say, well if you had to pay for an account on a monthly basis, both employers and potential employees, then 95% of the problem would go away. As in here's the portal, you must pay to play and because of that you'll have to agree to our rules.

 It would be a nice business model, but the sad thing is nobody actually wants to pay to get an interview. 

Seems like actually recruiting people now  has become a business in itself. And unless companies want to do it themselves again, as in hire and train people directly, we are gonna be stuck with HR people who cant't even tell what type of computer or program they are using to type the advertisement. 

MontagueVandervort

TrunksXV said:

 It would be a nice business model, but the sad thing is nobody actually wants to pay to get an interview.

I'm sure many people would pay, if they had the choice to do so.

I would have gladly paid when I was trying to get into entry level, and I would pay now to have access to potential employees who have that much drive as to actually pay for the chance to be interviewed.

TrunksXV

That's a neat concept. Paying to get the chance to be interviewed. 

NetworkNewb

TrunksXV said:

PenTest+ and Server+ by themselves won't mean much. But together they do mean more. It's kinda like a coin collection. If the set is complete then its worth something, if its not complete with one or two coins, then its not worth anything. But taken collectively it does tell the employer this guy is willing to put in a grind even if the information provided may not be relevant to the role. But still if its technology related it's another block that fits into the whole puzzle. 

I'm gonna completely disagree with this, but maybe it might work for you.  Getting a bunch of certs people don't know about doesn't mean they will mean a lot together.   HR/Manager (or even me) have zero clue how in detail those go into the topics they are about.   They would literally mean nothing to me personally and I look at certs a lot.   Most people in IT will just glance over those and not know what to make of them.   Go after big certs people actually have heard of and hold value in imo.  Just this person's 2 cents

stryder144

I have the Server+ and typically leave it off of my resume.  As it is good for life, I do leave it on my LinkedIn page, though.  It has, I might add, never come up in an interview in the past.

NetworkingStudent

UnixGuy said:

Landing the first job is the hardest step, in IT or any other careers really.

What do you think it takes to land your first Medical doctor job? 10+ yrs of education and unpaid training

First job in Accounting? 4 yrs degree with good grades, competing with thousands of graduates

First job as a Pharmacist? potentially 5+ yrs of education (depending on your location).

you get the point.

My recommendation to you is to focus on YOU, and don't focus too much on what HR does, what their gender is, and how they spend their time. You are your only priority.

Right now you have no IT experience, that's what's stopping you, it's not your lack of CISSP.

Do whatever it takes to get your foot in the door, search this forum for posts on how to get your foot in the door and learn from others. Job descriptions are wish-lists, so don't be disheartened. There are hundreds of threads on this forum that talk about that.

** Practical ways to get some experience under your belt:

1. Look for volunteering opportunities if they exist. Have you looked at any?

2. Create a home lab using virtual machines or cloud instances, Lab Lab Lab, build things, break things, get your hands dirty with some technologies. Add the lab experience to your resume. Your time is better off spent here than in worrying about HR.

3. Look for entry level help desk jobs, start there and work your way up. I don't think you lack certifications, you have more than what's required for a service desk position. Get your foot in the door FIRST.

I totally agree with this.  The job descriptions are often a wish list of the ideal candidate.  In fact, I asked about a job description before during a interview and the hiring manager told me it was a generic job description.  If you meet 60-70% of the job requirements, then you should apply.

What does it it take to be considered?
1) A good resume.  If they call you in for an interview, then they’re considering hiring you 

i would remove move all your personal info and post your resume here.  Your school can go through your resume too.

2) work with recuiters , they can help you find a position.

You don’t need more certs at this time. 

You should see see if you can
get an intership or volunteer

i would spend a lot of time networking people in your school, and outside of your school. A lot of jobs are not published on job boards. People would rather hire people they know and trust.  

UnixGuy

TrunksXV said:

PenTest+ and Server+ by themselves won't mean much. But together they do mean more. It's kinda like a coin collection. If the set is complete then its worth something, if its not complete with one or two coins, then its not worth anything. But taken collectively it does tell the employer this guy is willing to put in a grind even if the information provided may not be relevant to the role. But still if its technology related it's another block that fits into the whole puzzle. 

It's a lot better to spend your time doing eLearnsecurity eJPT or Offensive Security OSCP or a CCNA or RedHat cert than a group of CompTIA certs. Reason being those certs are practical certs with labs, so you will learn A LOT more, and you will get to practice the skills so you have a higher chance of retaining what you learn. 

I'm not too sure about employers looking favorably upon a combination of PenTest+/Server+, I haven't witnessed that. 

CCNA/Cisco certs, Amazon AWS certs, eLearnSecurity, RedHat certs have always been a lot more valuable than CompTIA in terms of the stuff you learn and certs value perception by employers 

(PS: I hold Security+, Server+, RHCE, eLearnSecurity eJPT, CCNA, and few SANS certs...so I know the difference between them)

TrunksXV

It all boils down to the cost. Right now I'm still in college and I'm doing what I can afford to do. And having those certs or studying for them aren't a bad thing. It can only add depth to what can be offered. I'm looking at college the same way I do certs now. 

Do colleges offer real life job skills or job training? Generally speaking no. And I'd say that at some point in the future the college system will be forced to change, get rid of the waste, and just focus on stuff that offers people the most bang for their buck. 

For instance only engineers would need very advanced math skills, the rest of us, only beginner or intermediate . We all can't get Masters Degrees because either we don't have the drive, or the funding isn't available and at the end of that gauntlet if you don't get anything that pays well enough, its pretty much a crapshoot. 

Certs tend to fit together better in the long term then a degree will overall. But like I've said you can't make anyone happy, you can only make them feel satisfied and in the game of landing a job, its becoming nearly impossible to satisfy anyone now, because well look at the local highways, our population is now so large that "being seen" is getting harder and harder. 

NetworkNewb

TrunksXV said:

Certs tend to fit together better in the long term then a degree will overall. . 

Long term degrees will trump certs almost every time... (exception might be CCIE or another advance cert) Certs will expire and usually are based off a certain version of a technology that most likely won’t be here 5 years from now.

Personally would save any money and go after a more prominent cert than the Comptia ones that will actually hold value to employers.   If can’t afford a more advanced cert wouldn’t keep spending money on ones people don’t care or know about.