How much free labour during hiring process is too much ?

DatabaseHead

Most of my knowledge is in data, modeling, transforming and all the other pieces that join into it, databases, SQL, etc...   I also have experience with API development and usages/documenting along with EDI payloads.  That's really it.....    With that said it's enough to get into EA and DA discussions.  Technically I have more, but generally around the data component or enterprise.  Not much infrastructure experience, routers, switches, load balancers etc.... 

My strategy is too keep it high enough level to not get true insights from me.  For example:  They will show me a invoice or some system with all the fields, but one of the KPI's they want calculated is when the item was delivered let's say.  Delivery Date - Ship Date.  I'll talk about going to a TMS/FEDEX system to get that information, but I stop there.  I don't talk about the exact data grain to get this accomplished etc.......

They will follow up with additional questions and I simply don't reply, usually, or else I'll tell the recruiter I will need 100 an hr for a min of 2 hours....   Pretty ridiculous but it helps me shoe them away without me having to come off rude....   It's just a matter of fact, pay or the case study is completed.  

TechGromit

Danielm7 said:

He's had to take a bunch of basic math tests, a few of them had spelling tests involved. One of the application processes was an online app that took easily 30+ minutes to fill all the fields, then upload your resume after (of course) then it kicked right into a three tests, each one saying expect 45 minutes to complete. Personality testing, one was a browser based VM where you had to do basic office tasks like copy and pasting in emails, it was a silly waste of time. 

You be surprised of the number of people that can't pass these basic tests. When I applied for a Call Center job at Verizon seven years ago they had three exams you had to pass, they even provided you with practice exams of what the tests would be like before the "interview" date. One was a Math test, one English and one a computer techincal test. They even asked router questions I couldn't answer on the practice tests, but I looked up the material and studied for the exams before hand. The day of the tests, a good 50% of the testers failed one of the exams, you didn't get an interview if you couldn't pass the tests.

The funniest thing was a couple people were laid off from Verizon from other divisions, and were offered preferential treatment when applying and most of them didn't pass all the tests. I recall a former co-worker applied and asked me what the study for to pass the tests. i told them use the practice tests to know what to study for, they memorized the tests themselves and failed that's NOT what I said.       

iBrokeIT

DatabaseHead said:

"no right or wrong answer", "but there was a crucial part missed"

I would ask them to reconcile those two statements.

Sounds like you gained some very valuable insight on how management operates there. 

Danielm7

TechGromit said:

You be surprised of the number of people that can't pass these basic tests.    

I can absolutely believe that, but when you're going for some kind of Sr level marketing and design role, I'd want to hope they have basic computer skills, but I guess lots of people still don't. 

The same guy showed me his most recent request the other day, it's basically a full marketing and online ad campaign project, each step takes a few hours, there are 6 steps before the final in person interview. This is the most fishy "free work" type one he's showed me. It just sounds like he's making a whole new plan for the company on his dime. 

DatabaseHead

iBrokeIT said:

DatabaseHead said:

"no right or wrong answer", "but there was a crucial part missed"

I would ask them to reconcile those two statements.

Sounds like you gained some very valuable insight on how management operates there. 

Again went against my gut and answered there questions for follow up around change management.  Of course it was HIGH level no detail quick hitters.  Maybe 5 total.  Went through with the interview and talk about a POS.  I seriously ended the call half way through suggesting it was best if we quit now.....    She got all pissy and hung up.  I laughed....  Of course after she hung up

It was a tester, trainer role.  Why in the world would they want the person to answer such challenging questions.  (For me it wasn't difficult it was second nature due to experience, but anyone who would of been a good fit would of never taken that role).  

Azt7

DatabaseHead said:

Again went against my gut and answered there questions for follow up around change management.  Of course it was HIGH level no detail quick hitters.  Maybe 5 total.  Went through with the interview and talk about a POS.  I seriously ended the call half way through suggesting it was best if we quit now.....    She got all pissy and hung up.  I laughed....  Of course after she hung up

It was a tester, trainer role.  Why in the world would they want the person to answer such challenging questions.  (For me it wasn't difficult it was second nature due to experience, but anyone who would of been a good fit would of never taken that role).  

Was it the hiring manager ?

Usually, I get along just fine with HR as they're evaluating fit and salary requirements. But some of these hiring managers are something else. 

DatabaseHead

Azt7 said:

DatabaseHead said:

Again went against my gut and answered there questions for follow up around change management.  Of course it was HIGH level no detail quick hitters.  Maybe 5 total.  Went through with the interview and talk about a POS.  I seriously ended the call half way through suggesting it was best if we quit now.....    She got all pissy and hung up.  I laughed....  Of course after she hung up

It was a tester, trainer role.  Why in the world would they want the person to answer such challenging questions.  (For me it wasn't difficult it was second nature due to experience, but anyone who would of been a good fit would of never taken that role).  

Was it the hiring manager ?

Usually, I get alon just fine with HR as they're evaluating fit and salary requirements. But some these hiring managers are something else. 

Yes hiring manager.  This was a virtual interview....  Here is how it went

Suzanne (fake name) is our BI developer who is the best dashboard designer out there and our data architect is the best......   (This annoyed me immediately)

Then they went out to tell me of the role and what I would be doing...  It was stupid.  Testing, Validation, Training Staff.  That is the role, QA analyst/Trainer would be my best guest on a title.  

Either way such a waste of time.  Not doing that moving forward unless I have real motivation.  I really need to know about the job and the people before I go to such long lengths of proving my chops.

Speaking of which.....

Why in the hell would that role need to know how to source data from disparate systems and how to integrate and model systems (warehouses) using the Kimball or Inman methodology nonetheless.  Idiotic.

MrNetTek

As soon as they mention production work, anything that sounds like exploitation of your skills, to fix their problems, I'd leave. They obviously aren't serious about hiring a person. There is no shame in just standing up, thanking them for their time, and leaving. Do that once; it's empowering. 

It's been a long time since I've had to interview, but....these days, I would just direct people to my website for proof of education and experience. If that isn't enough for them, I wouldn't want to work there.


-MrNetTek at your service-

            

Azt7

DatabaseHead said:

Why in the hell would that role need to know how to source data from disparate systems and how to integrate and model systems (warehouses) using the Kimball or Inman methodology nonetheless.  Idiotic.

Everybody wants experts of everything which in return brings salaries companies can't afford. You knowing all those methods would probably price you out of the position.  

As much as I do not want this thread to turn into HR / hiring managers bashing (we have been doing good actually), we do need to share what is really happening on the market. 

balance

I interviewed for a position once where the company wanted to know how I would open up product offerings to new business lines.   The HR team wanted a full report with  strategy and three courses of action.  I told the HR team that I could provide all of the guidance they needed  once I was a full time employee  or if they wanted to hire me as  a B2B.

The HR team responded with, thanks for  your time , we appreciate your interest.    This happiness a lot in the aerospace / engineering world.  Remember to know your worth.

JDMurray

MrNetTek said:

It's been a long time since I've had to interview, but....these days, I would just direct people to my website for proof of education and experience. If that isn't enough for them, I wouldn't want to work there.

In interviews that I conduct, I'm looking at personality and presentation as much as skills and experience. I am hiring people for existing teams and I need to know that the candidate will not only have the proper attitude towards the work but also integrate into the personalities on my team. Even if I were hiring a "lone wolf" consultant for a special project, I would need to know that they are the type of personality that can solve my problems, work with my direction, and possibly with minimal supervision. I can't achieve any of that due diligence from just reading an on-line resume.

TheFORCE

I might have been asked a similar question in one interview and I did offer recommendations. it did cross my mind that this might be a tricky question to answer  but i did give my recommendation anyway.  They were ready to make me an offer. So it really is a 50/50 situation.  In the end, theway i think of it is no one can implement your ideas the way you have planned them out.