The trap of always looking for a better job

UnixGuy

Have you fallen to this trap? I think I have

you work somewhere good, but 6 months later you start wondering why you aren't working elsewhere that's more prestigious or in a higher position...

you ended with  CV full of 12 months, 18 months jobs....

What's your rationale behind staying in a good job vs. getting a better job?

AvgITGeek

Simple. Staying in a good job: Comfortable, making ends meet. Getting a better job: Better benefits, pay and learning more about what I love to do which will make me more efficient and knowledgeable. That will lead to the next upward transfer to a larger company.

No brainer in my situation. I jumped ship (was there for 2 years) even though I loved networking to get back to being a DBA.

Danielm7

I have a tendency to fall into the opposite camp. I've been at the same company for 5 years, promoted twice, making on the higher end of salary and currently have pretty flexible work situation where I work remote a few days a week and the schedule works well with my lifestyle. Every time I get really annoyed with something at my workplace, (which is often enough because it's not a tech/security company but a large older company that doesn't have a security culture at all) I start thinking about other jobs and brushing up my resume. 

Then I go.. damn, it might not be the same pay, my schedule right now is perfect for my family, I'd hate to drive in somewhere every day... FINE I'll just grin and bear it. 

Does that mean my thought process is completely right? I doubt it, but it tends to make me stick places for longer than I probably should. 

DatabaseHead

UnixGuy said:

Have you fallen to this trap? I think I have

you work somewhere good, but 6 months later you start wondering why you aren't working elsewhere that's more prestigious or in a higher position...

you ended with  CV full of 12 months, 18 months jobs....

What's your rationale behind staying in a good job vs. getting a better job?

I don't believe in job history time lines anymore.   I have a 3 month and a 6 month and will be moving to Jacksonville here on the 3rd of Sept for a 1 year contract.  It's all about skills and experience.  

To answer your question location is a huge motivator.  I love coastal or near coastal and that prompted me to move physically and my career.  I am also going to be learning additional skills which will help me move into large enterprise level strategy roles.   Sticking around to stick around or for time lines makes me laugh....   

Some of the most successful people I know work short termed contracts and get paid well....   One side note - They pick up a lot skills working with new technologies. 

Another note....  (Sorry just hit me).  I have kids, 16, 11 and 3 and I want them to experience different locations and enjoy life.  So...  It's not just about me.  Sorry for the long rant lol

Fulcrum45

I've fallen into that trap. I've had five different jobs in as many years and it's starting to catch up to me. Part of it is because I did two non-consecutive overseas contracts and came home both times without a job because I didn't like being away from my family for that long. As the sole income earner at home there's a lot of pressure on me to keep advancing financially and typically a new position is what brings on the greatest pay bump but I need to put the brakes on a bit. I was interviewing with Aruba Networks and one of the tech interviewers told me that this would raise a red flag. At that point my suspicions were confirmed: I look like a job hopper. 

Infosec_Sam

I think continually learning new technologies and expanding your expertise is important, and most of that is going to come from jumping around from job to job every 1-3 years. However, job-hopping every few years with the sole purpose of a higher paycheck can become dangerous in a hurry. Lifestyle creep is real - there are definitely people out there making six figures and still living paycheck to paycheck.

mikey88

I blame certifications and the economy! If you feel you are underpaid or falling behind in terms of technology.. then it's time to send out a few resumes. 

Also, I'd like to point out that there is a difference in hopping around from a 12mo contract vs a full time role in a fortune 500. There is a big difference. 

AvgITGeek

When I said that I left my last job of only two years as a network guy to get back into the DB world, I only had two civilian jobs prior to that. My first was a PC Analyst which I held for four years before having the position cut and then as a JOAT for 16 years. I'm not one to job hop but when the opportunity is there which will better you both financially and professionally, I'd do it every time. I loved the networking gig and was ready to pull the trigger on my CCNA, the DBA position opened up and I couldn't say no.

Jon_Cisco

It all comes down to goals. What is your motivation. If your looking for new things and more money it is almost always easier to move on.

I personally have enjoyed longer stretches.

1st job 10 years.

2nd job 2 years.

3rd job 14 years.

There is no doubt I could have learned and earned more but my personality prefers to stay put.

I only recently moved into IT so that might change a bit in the future.

AvgITGeek

@Jon_Cisco I know the feeling. I love stability and that is the reason why I stayed with that one company for so long. Red flags were everywhere telling me to leave but I stuck with it as it was comfortable. BUT I wasn't learning anything new with Windows Server or SQL Server. If you are one of those like me that like to stay with a company for years. Be sure to be keeping up with the new technologies and certifications. That really would have bit me in the ass as I didn't complete any certs after my NT MCSE and then I was given notice that I had three months to find another job (thank them for telling me that). Without my 410 and 411, I would have doubted I would have landed my next job.

thomas_

I read an article saying that people who change jobs every 12 - 24 months end up earning way more over their lifetime than people who just stay at one job.

With that being said, I took a "promotion" at a company with a lot more responsibility where my manager said he would try to get me an increase.  It wasn't until 18 months later that I saw any type of increase.  Money wise I probably received the short end of the stick compared to what I may have gotten if I got another job.  Experience wise I probably came out ahead. 

One reason I stayed was because I knew I would be moving and I didn't want to get another job, move, and have to look for another job.  Also, there was the potential of getting a position at the new location I moved to, which did work out.  Now I'm in a similar position as before where I'm supposed to be getting more money, but have yet to see it.  This time around I'm going to start searching for a new job a lot sooner if I don't get the increase and they give me the run around.  Ultimately I think what I'm earning is significantly less than what I could earn at other places given my experience and certifications.

I read another article that says you should interview for jobs periodically even if you have a job your happy with because it will help you know what you are worth in the employment market.  I suppose you run the risk of a company blacklisting you if they extend an offer and you decline.  If you're in an area with not a lot of tech positions, then this could become problematic.

Jon_Cisco

For the last 6 years of my last 14 year stretch I picked up and associate degree and a few certifications because I was limited in the amount of additional learning I was going to get in the office. Even if you enjoy longer employment times it does not mean you should not be learning and getting promotions.

DatabaseHead

Agree with @Jon_Cisco always should be learning.  This is how I keep getting paid more and more and moving up and up.  I did a career change ~29 years old into a help desk role, back to square one basically.  In order for me to make the money my peers at my age make I had to jump jobs AND learn new skills.  If I would of stayed put, (I dont want to even think about it).  

Nevertheless we all need to make our own way.  

UnixGuy

Danielm7 said:

Then I go.. damn, it might not be the same pay, my schedule right now is perfect for my family, I'd hate to drive in somewhere every day... FINE I'll just grin and bear it. 

This is what I needed to hear. I don't get huge pay rises and usually end up bored after some time, I need to stick it out longer so I can jump to higher positions..I need to have something 2+ yrs now. I had a 6 yr in the beginning of my career, but I've been hopping a bit since then

Thanks!

UnixGuy

DatabaseHead said:

...  If I would of stayed put, (I dont want to even think about it).  

Nevertheless we all need to make our own way.  

I understand, you gotta do what you gotta do. My situation is a bit different now though

good luck

DZA_

UnixGuy said:

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Danielm7 said:

Then I go.. damn, it might not be the same pay, my schedule right now is perfect for my family, I'd hate to drive in somewhere every day... FINE I'll just grin and bear it. 

This is what I needed to hear. I don't get huge pay rises and usually end up bored after some time, I need to stick it out longer so I can jump to higher positions..I need to have something 2+ yrs now. I had a 6 yr in the beginning of my career, but I've been hopping a bit since then

Thanks!

This sounds like what I'll be going through now. My last role was about 6 years and now with the bank, its almost getting about 2 years. Given the current situation, I'm in the mindset of finding a new position externally as the role is slow, I've been working on the same project that has troubles for over a year and I don't have much of management support at all . I'm also currently looking what other internal positions are open but I'm not totally optimistic about it. 

UnixGuy

DZA_ said:This sounds like what I'll be going through now. My last role was about 6 years and now with the bank, its almost getting about 2 years. Given the current situation, I'm in the mindset of finding a new position externally as the role is slow, I've been working on the same project that has troubles for over a year and I don't have much of management support at all . I'm also currently looking what other internal positions are open but I'm not totally optimistic about it. 

Every situation is different, where I'm living now it's a lot less acceptable to job hop than it is in the US, and none of my roles were contracts.

I need to remind myself  every time I get bored that the next job I'll end bored anyway. In my current employer, they offer a career path with upward promotion pathway so it's a lot in this regard

DatabaseHead

UnixGuy said:

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DZA_ said:This sounds like what I'll be going through now. My last role was about 6 years and now with the bank, its almost getting about 2 years. Given the current situation, I'm in the mindset of finding a new position externally as the role is slow, I've been working on the same project that has troubles for over a year and I don't have much of management support at all . I'm also currently looking what other internal positions are open but I'm not totally optimistic about it. 

Every situation is different, where I'm living now it's a lot less acceptable to job hop than it is in the US, and none of my roles were contracts.

I need to remind myself  every time I get bored that the next job I'll end bored anyway. In my current employer, they offer a career path with upward promotion pathway so it's a lot in this regard

No guarantees in upward promotion unless you have some contract signed with that company stating that.....   That's a fact...   You are a veteran however, so you already know this.

I would agree being bored isn't a good reason to leave, money, location, opportunity, more free time is though....   But to your point, you are in AU, so things are surely different.  

I personally love working contracts, because it gives me the ability to continue to move up and up and up....   My end game is principal (I'm right there, yours maybe a corporate director...   Which in your case attrition through a corporation MIGHT be your best play.....)  I was never a big fan of this route, because it's contigent on if someone of influence and power is willing to stick their neck out for you.  And while I am most certainly someone who can influence, probably one of my tops skills I feel the need to make my own path....  

I found so many corporate directors on up completely incompetent.  Besides they possess a skill that I am not very good at.  Grinding through operational work.....  Day to day activities absolutely kill me, sucks the life out of me.  

Ultimately for me it's about knowing thy self and making sure to integrate into efforts that match your personality type, objectives.  

Azt7

I definitely feel the same way. It is very hard to stay in a company when you're getting bored and the corporate red line is more prevalent than anything else. Then, you have recruiters constantly bringing you potential opportunities.

I'm in a similar situation as my longest and current job is 3 years, which is not that much. So I have to make sure that if I make a move, it will be worth it and I have to potentially stay longer at that job. So that makes me somewhat careful in picking jobs.

As others shared above, the end goal is to maximize your earnings while being in the most accommodating environment. 

When I find the most accommodating environment (commute / remote work, family balance, salary, insurance...), I know it will be time to just ride it out into the sunset. 

UnixGuy

DatabaseHead said:

No guarantees in upward promotion unless you have some contract signed with that company stating that.....   That's a fact...   You are a veteran however, so you already know this.

I would agree being bored isn't a good reason to leave, money, location, opportunity, more free time is though....   But to your point, you are in AU, so things are surely different.  

I personally love working contracts, because it gives me the ability to continue to move up and up and up....   My end game is principal (I'm right there, yours maybe a corporate director...   Which in your case attrition through a corporation MIGHT be your best play.....)  I was never a big fan of this route, because it's contigent on if someone of influence and power is willing to stick their neck out for you.  And while I am most certainly someone who can influence, probably one of my tops skills I feel the need to make my own path....  

I found so many corporate directors on up completely incompetent.  Besides they possess a skill that I am not very good at.  Grinding through operational work.....  Day to day activities absolutely kill me, sucks the life out of me.  

you make excellent points my friend. My situation is a bit different, there is an annual promotion cycle here, and the firm knows (direct boss knows anyway) that I can get much better offers elswhere quickly via my connections and experience, so there is something there. Right now I’m talking to someone about a potential opportunity that might be too good to refuse, time will tell



I agree regarding corporate directors, a lot are flat out incompetent but this motivates me to do their job better -  a lot better. Again, who knows! 

You are doing so well man, keep it up! 

UnixGuy

Topical...I reached out to someone hire up somewhere Im interested in and he asked to meet up for a coffee. Wait and see


I’m also in a holiday this week and recruiter reached out to me to join a past employer of mine to manage one of the team, it’s a lot more money than what im making now...and the funny part is some of my previous colleagues are still there doing the same job I was doing 4 yrs ago.


Let’s wait and see how this play out!

DatabaseHead

UnixGuy said:

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DatabaseHead said:

No guarantees in upward promotion unless you have some contract signed with that company stating that.....   That's a fact...   You are a veteran however, so you already know this.

I would agree being bored isn't a good reason to leave, money, location, opportunity, more free time is though....   But to your point, you are in AU, so things are surely different.  

I personally love working contracts, because it gives me the ability to continue to move up and up and up....   My end game is principal (I'm right there, yours maybe a corporate director...   Which in your case attrition through a corporation MIGHT be your best play.....)  I was never a big fan of this route, because it's contigent on if someone of influence and power is willing to stick their neck out for you.  And while I am most certainly someone who can influence, probably one of my tops skills I feel the need to make my own path....  

I found so many corporate directors on up completely incompetent.  Besides they possess a skill that I am not very good at.  Grinding through operational work.....  Day to day activities absolutely kill me, sucks the life out of me.  

you make excellent points my friend. My situation is a bit different, there is an annual promotion cycle here, and the firm knows (direct boss knows anyway) that I can get much better offers elswhere quickly via my connections and experience, so there is something there. Right now I’m talking to someone about a potential opportunity that might be too good to refuse, time will tell



I agree regarding corporate directors, a lot are flat out incompetent but this motivates me to do their job better -  a lot better. Again, who knows! 

You are doing so well man, keep it up! 

Better keep us posted!  I feel invested at this point!  I'll keep you posted as well.  BTW can we get the career progression thread stickied?  Such a worthy thread.

UnixGuy

DatabaseHead said:

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Better keep us posted!  I feel invested at this point!  I'll keep you posted as well.  BTW can we get the career progression thread stickied?  Such a worthy thread.

I stickied it now, it's a great thread. I'll post the updates here for sure if I get any

Spiegel

The reason why I stay with my current job is because it is currently the biggest health organization with one of the best IT departments in the area. They have a slew of various IT jobs available, so career growth opportunities are there. Also, it's much easier to move around and climb the ladder from inside the company. I'm currently not where I want to be professionally and I know that if I stay here it'll be more advantageous for me once I pursue the real position I'm after then as an outsider.

NetworkNewb

Spiegel said:

The reason why I stay with my current job is because it is currently the biggest health organization with one of the best IT departments in the area. They have a slew of various IT jobs available, so career growth opportunities are there. Also, it's much easier to move around and climb the ladder from inside the company. I'm currently not where I want to be professionally and I know that if I stay here it'll be more advantageous for me once I pursue the real position I'm after then as an outsider.

If you haven't already, make sure tell your current manager and the manager of where you want to grow into of your goals.   Could make it immensely easier to know what you need to do and speed up the time it takes to get there! 

chrisone

My experience is of loyalty and the reality that is hasn't meant much in the long run. 

What I mean is,
I worked my butt off for one company for 4 years and when times got hard during the recession they laid me off. 
Was at another company for 6 years and NEVER asked for raises or salary bumps. After 6 years and being the project lead on all projects I felt I deserved the "Senior" title. I went to ask for the senior title and a salary correction and it was such a struggle just to get the Senior title. I left with not much to show after 6 years. 

My problem has always been loyalty. But now I learned my lesson and currently I am reaching year 4 at my current employer. I plan on looking at the market and seeing what my value is. It doesn't mean I will leave but it is a healthy practice to know your market value after 2-4 years at your current employer.

Danielm7

@chrisone
While you're not wrong about loyalty in most cases. You also don't get what you don't ask for. So churning away for 6 years working hard and never asking for something, is the problem. If anything, they saw 6 years of you working at what you considered a senior level, and they considered your normal, then suddenly you expected more out of it. 

UnixGuy

Danielm7 said:

@chrisone
While you're not wrong about loyalty in most cases. You also don't get what you don't ask for. So churning away for 6 years working hard and never asking for something, is the problem. If anything, they saw 6 years of you working at what you considered a senior level, and they considered your normal, then suddenly you expected more out of it. 

So he could've just asked the first company to not lay him off and that would've just worked fine?

I see your point, we need to ask for things to get them, but he did ask and got nothing.

Infosec_Sam

chrisone said:

I plan on looking at the market and seeing what my value is. It doesn't mean I will leave but it is a healthy practice to know your market value after 2-4 years at your current employer.

I think if there's anything to take away from this thread, it's this. Company loyalty aside, it's important that your salary reflects your worth on the market — especially in cybersecurity, where the market is so willing to spend on high-quality talent.

DatabaseHead

@chrisone -  Being loyal is a fantastic virtue to possess and just because it burned you don't let them take that away.  I have it to a certain degree, but not enough to qualify myself having.....   

With that said, set your boundries with timelines and if certain conditions aren't met take action as you see fit....   It's how I plan projects and my career.   EG  If I take a job and it's supposed to be XYZ and it's ABC I'll leave within months.  I don't care about time lines on my resume

If I am doing a job like you for 3 years or so....   I keep getting overlooked even when I push for promotion etc....   I take corrective action

chrisone

@Danielm7
@UnixGuy
@Infosec_Sam
@DatabaseHead

Thanks for the input. Trust me I learned my lesson several years ago hahaha I was posting this so that others can have an idea of what "loyalty" will get you. Hopefully it helps others be proactive in making decisions. 

That company I was with for 6 years, I did give minor 3% raises here and there. But as you know, that is the very minimum and while I was at that company I completed CCNP R/S, CCDP, CCNP Security, was in the middle of working on CCIE DC at the time I requested my "Senior" title & salary correction. I was the only person who was certification oriented. 

Sometimes you just have to see the reality of a companies status and growth. Which is another truth people have to see in an employer. Sometimes it is just not worth working for a struggling company or one that does not have a culture that encourages growth. That company just saw its engineers as worker bees.