Advice - Pay amongst equal team members.

Mr.Robot255

Hi All,


I don't really know if this is the correct sub forum but here goes.

I recently got a new position in a isp, i was offered X amount in salary i am happy with it.(its a tier 1 role in N-O-C)


Now i am not kidding myself i know not everyone is on the same money, for example there are existing tier 1s there for several years and know the ins and outs of how everything runs so they are on more i accept that.

However it has come to light some new tier 1s hired after me are actually (negotiated) hire salary than all of the existing tier 1s. (to me that seems crazy no matter what experience they come with from other companies they worked for) it also bugs me that same new employees from my convos with them have no certs like i have and tbh my experience albeit a lot shorter in previous role but much more relevant to what we do here. (*my 1.5y rs to their 11 yrs apparently in tier 1) 

Now again until it was brought to my attention i really don't care what others get if they are doing more/know more/ etc about role than me. 

But am i right to kinda want what another colleague gets IF we are doing the exact same Job - or if i know more and have certs etc to go along with that. ?


What perspective do you take on this from point of view of myself or established members of the team who are getting less than a new co worker:
1) my position
2) people who have been there 3-6 yrs 


Just want some input on this thanks. 

MrsWilliams

First and foremost, I'll give you some advice. ...... ->

-->Never talk about pay<--

Okay 

Talking about pay causes all types of stress. IF someone asks me how much I make and IF I tell them I always inflate the numbers. Unless you are my spouse or the IRS you shouldn't ask or know how much I make. 


You are mad that somebody negotiated and you didn't?   

95% of the time the salary you are offered isn't the highest salary they are willing to pay. Other things come into question such as:

1. Experience
2. Clearance
3. Certificaiton
4. Education
5. Who you know

You might have more certs but the other individual might be bringing more experience. Some people/organizations weigh experience over certifications. Some people way any number of things over any number of things. You don't know what's on another resume. It's hard to compare equal pay unless you are both bringing the EXACT same thing to the table. 

Missing information:

1. Are you contractors / sub-contractors?
2. Do you all work for the same company?
3. Has the contract changed in those 3-6 years. Sometimes contract changes can cause for a reduction of pay. People who have been working in the role the longest sometimes have been grandfathered into higher paying positions. 

Mr.Robot255 said:

Hi All,


I don't really know if this is the correct sub forum but here goes.

I recently got a new position in a isp, i was offered X amount in salary i am happy with it.(its a tier 1 role in N-O-C)


Now i am not kidding myself i know not everyone is on the same money, for example there are existing tier 1s there for several years and know the ins and outs of how everything runs so they are on more i accept that.

However it has come to light some new tier 1s hired after me are actually (negotiated) hire salary than all of the existing tier 1s. (to me that seems crazy no matter what experience they come with from other companies they worked for) it also bugs me that same new employees from my convos with them have no certs like i have and tbh my experience albeit a lot shorter in previous role but much more relevant to what we do here. (*my 1.5y rs to their 11 yrs apparently in tier 1) 

Now again until it was brought to my attention i really don't care what others get if they are doing more/know more/ etc about role than me. 

But am i right to kinda want what another colleague gets IF we are doing the exact same Job - or if i know more and have certs etc to go along with that. ?


What perspective do you take on this from point of view of myself or established members of the team who are getting less than a new co worker:
1) my position
2) people who have been there 3-6 yrs 


Just want some input on this thanks. 

Jon_Cisco

I believe it is human nature to compare ourselves to others and then try to determine our self worth from this comparison. Don't fall for that trap.

Most companies don't fill roles using a specific wage for each position. This means every hire is going to be treated differently and every review will be treated differently. If you are concerned with your own negotiating add a book about it to your study list. It might be the best book you ever read.

MrsWilliams

Jon_Cisco said:

I believe it is human nature to compare ourselves to others and then try to determine our self worth from this comparison. Don't fall for that trap.

Most companies  don't fill roles using a specific wage for each position. This means every hire is going to be treated differently and every review will be treated differently. If you are concerned with your own negotiating add a book about it to your study list. It might be the best book you ever read. 

I will say Sir that big organizations do. The company I am with now, and onces in the past did. I was going to post it ..but I like my job.

The company now has a job code and descriptions chart. Other big organizations I worked for had something similar. 


For example (I am totally making these numbers up):

3A Help Desk/Customer Service. 32,000-44500
3B System Administration 45,000 - 47,0000
4A SOC Analyst 50,000 - 62,000
4C Vulnerability Analyst 70,000 - 84,500
5D Security Engineer 90,000 - 110,000

An external employee would NEVER know the negotiation range (based on things I listed previously). An internal employee would know how much wiggle room they have. If I am applying for Help Desk job code 3A and I am offered 32,500...I know the same numbers the recruiter knows and I would negotiate. I might even send them a copy of the job code and descriptions chart just to let them know I KNOW LOL.

I wouldn't say most....

TheFORCE

No one is equal in this world, no matter what you believe.  There can be hundreds of different variables that can be used to interpret the difference in pay. Experience,  negotiation skills, fit with the company,  company budget at the time you were hired vs the time they got hired etc.

MrsWilliams

TheFORCE said:

No one is equal in this world, no matter what you believe.  

I agree!

Mr.Robot255

Hey Guys thansk for all your input as i mentioned i am happy with my pay tbh i think once i have put more time in to the position i will be in a spot to negotiate again, but other than that i aint really too fussed about whos getting what (it was mentioned to me i didn't ask as im in the same boat whats mine is mine whats yours is yours)
But i am kinda looking at it from existing team members who have 3-6 yrs experience able to do the job single handed and now they see someone getting more than them, to me thats not right, especially when its clear that they will be training the new employee and he/she will still not know what they know until he/she has also put in 3-6 yrs.

anyways again thanks for clarifying it for me

LonerVamp

On the flip side, there is a school of thought where if we all didn't treat pay like some magical, secret number we had to defend with our lives, we'd all be happier with the situations. This includes marginalized persons like women's pay rate differences being more exposed. Pay differences can be fine when rational, but irrational pay differences break the system. (Also, when was the last time you heard of someone's pay going down, even if they've started coasting after x years?)

That said, many people don't like to learn that they really are less valuable than some others. Especially so if they thought otherwise. And that valuation can change with regime and management changes, as well. That said, if we all knew pay and could see what someone else is valued for, that gives us a chance to build towards that same position rather than just throw darts at a board.

A few things I don't like, but are basically part of the real world we live in: a) Favorites and politics. I know, god forbid we make personal connections with people, and sometimes that include higher-ups that others wish they could share time with. b) The squeaky wheel gets the pay (or is at more risk of being shown the door). In other words, complain, cry, pester.

One thing to think about though (and I'm not saying this is my stance): Why would you *not* talk about pay with someone? What exactly are you hiding, ashamed of, sensitive about that makes it taboo?

NetworkingStudent

Mr.Robot255 said:

Hi All,


I don't really know if this is the correct sub forum but here goes.

I recently got a new position in a isp, i was offered X amount in salary i am happy with it.(its a tier 1 role in N-O-C)


Now i am not kidding myself i know not everyone is on the same money, for example there are existing tier 1s there for several years and know the ins and outs of how everything runs so they are on more i accept that.

However it has come to light some new tier 1s hired after me are actually (negotiated) hire salary than all of the existing tier 1s. (to me that seems crazy no matter what experience they come with from other companies they worked for) it also bugs me that same new employees from my convos with them have no certs like i have and tbh my experience albeit a lot shorter in previous role but much more relevant to what we do here. (*my 1.5y rs to their 11 yrs apparently in tier 1) 

If they have 11 years experience, then that's probably why they're getting paid more.  I have found more often than not, companies want their employees to hit the ground running.  The less they have to train someone the better. 

I would see what it takes to get to a level 2 role, and go from there.    

NetworkingStudent

LonerVamp said:

On the flip side, there is a school of thought where if we all didn't treat pay like some magical, secret number we had to defend with our lives, we'd all be happier with the situations. This includes marginalized persons like women's pay rate differences being more exposed. Pay differences can be fine when rational, but irrational pay differences break the system. (Also, when was the last time you heard of someone's pay going down, even if they've started coasting after x years?)

That said, many people don't like to learn that they really are less valuable than some others. Especially so if they thought otherwise. And that valuation can change with regime and management changes, as well. That said, if we all knew pay and could see what someone else is valued for, that gives us a chance to build towards that same position rather than just throw darts at a board.

A few things I don't like, but are basically part of the real world we live in: a) Favorites and politics. I know, god forbid we make personal connections with people, and sometimes that include higher-ups that others wish they could share time with. b) The squeaky wheel gets the pay (or is at more risk of being shown the door). In other words, complain, cry, pester.

One thing to think about though (and I'm not saying this is my stance): Why would you *not* talk about pay with someone? What exactly are you hiding, ashamed of, sensitive about that makes it taboo?

I haven't heard of someone's pay going down, but I did work at one position, were anyone new employees hired on made less than myself and my coworkers.  

For women's pay I keep thinking of women's soccer, I'm not sure why they get paid less than men. 

Some companies have a strict rule to not talk about pay.  I think a good reason not to talk about it could be possible resentment.  

Mr.Robot255

Well from my own point of view on the above " (*my 1.5y rs to their 11 yrs apparently in tier 1) If they have 11 years experience, then that's probably why they're getting paid more." normally i would be saying yes spot on, but this persons 11 yrs v my own 1.5yrs exp are two diff roles mine is completely relevant to the role we are hired for and the roles we can proceed to.

I was actually more confused when i heard he had 11yrs exp and the questions he was asking me confused me more to where was this 11yrs exp gotten from.

Tbh i have been given half the story  i was just doing some research from people in the know (you guys) to get a bigger insight into how these things work

TheFORCE

Women's soccer is very easy to understand really and it all comes down to attendance and revenue made from the attendance of games. 

Look at the European soccer leagues vs the MLS.
The European leagues are more established, with more fans, more followers, more money on advertising and promotions, better skilled etc. Those players are get paid millions while the MLs players get paid thousands.  Should MLS players complain why they don't get paid millions like their European counterparts? So it comes down to how much money you get in. Do i think USA women's soccer should be paid more ? absolutely yes, but on the international level, in the domestic league if they don't have the same attendance then why should they get paid more if they are not bringing in the same level of revenue?

Ertaz

I just got done renegotiating my deal.  You never know what you can get until you are prepared to walk.  You don't get what you deserve, you get what you negotiate.  Be studious and be ready to move on if necessary.  Only thing I can guarantee is that "life ain't fair and the world is mean."

Infosec_Sam

Ertaz said:

You don't get what you deserve, you get what you negotiate.

I think this is a great point that sometimes gets overlooked. Much like the Apple monitor stand, you're worth what people are willing to pay, for better or for worse.

iBrokeIT

MrsWilliams said:

First and foremost, I'll give you some advice. ...... ->

-->Never talk about pay<--

100% disagree with this position. It overwhelmingly benefits your employer to keep the status quo by not having their employees discuss pay and discovering they are underpaid compared to their peers.  Comparing your salary and skills to your peers is a critical data point for setting your market rate.

sephiroth66

I have always hated the "hush hush" crap around pay/salary. Why shouldn't my coworker know how much I'm making and visa versa? 

Usually because one of us negotiated better for doing the exact same job even with near identical performance. If I can pay a person less money to perform the same amount of work then that saves me money as a company. It just equates to less overhead costs. It has way less to do with the worker, and more with the bottom-line. It keeps margins higher, and shareholders/board members happy.

If you want to see what your worth you have to get out there and start applying and negotiating salaries. You shouldn't take it personally (this is where many people go wrong). Everyone wants to bring emotion into the salary aspect, when in fact more often than not it's just a numbers game. 

advanex1

Agreed. Talk about pay all you want, but be prepared to be either happy or dissatisfied. If pay is all you love about the current job you work at and you find you are under paid then you'll be upset. That's okay. Ask for more money or use that time to go find a job you'll like and that does compensate you well. I'm always willing to give up what I make because it helps the work force negotiate and doesn't keep the ball in the employers court.

LonerVamp

I just wanted to reiterate what I missed earlier that others have said: "Not being transparent about pay only benefits the employer."

I think one of the better ways to find out what you should be paid is to have a friend or two (or just good relationships) with local recruiters in your area and who place people in your field/skill set. Go to lunch and candidly ask them what you should be making based on your experience and skills and what you want to do. I bet they have a great idea, even off the top of their heads.

Jon_Cisco

MrsWilliams said:

Jon_Cisco said:

Most companies  don't fill roles using a specific wage for each position.

I will say Sir that big organizations do. The company I am with now, and onces in the past did. I was going to post it ..but I like my job.

I have no experience with large companies but I can tell you the smaller companies I have worked with have swung way outside of there desired ranges when hiring.

In my current position I have no wiggle room the union sets the pay grid and my position falls where it falls. So yeah it is different everywhere but I think the original poster is probably in one of the environments where you can sell yourself a little more and be rewarded for it.

Mr.Robot255

Great info folks thanks for all the feedback, i will use this to my advantage in my next meeting about my progress maybe

JDMurray

LonerVamp said:

Go to lunch and candidly ask them what you should be making based on your experience and skills and what you want to do. I bet they have a great idea, even off the top of their heads.

Annual net pay is based on the accepted starting salary, salary groups (or bands), performance bonuses, and the budget for annual salary increases. Most people really don't understand the metrics for deciding what they are paid or how much of it comes down to personal judgment over quantifiable metrics. 

UnixGuy

This is  the "Equity theory" at play here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equity_theory

This is a fun little experiment to demonstrate: (no correlation with Mr.Robot255's display picture)

https://youtu.be/meiU6TxysCg

We are humans and it affects us all.

thomas_

I can see not wanting to give your coworkers salary information if you outperform them and think you are making a lot more than them.  This is because they might think their performance is equal to your performance despite it being dramatically less due to things like they aren’t as knowledgable, can’t solve the types of problems you can solve, them spending time surfing the web for non-work related things, they are a smoker and take numerous smoke breaks throughout the day, etc. and once they find out you make more than them they will of course go to the boss/supervisor and try to get the same amount of money as you despite their performance being less.

On the other hand, it’s hard to know you’re getting shafted unless you either know how much other people are making at your company or you are periodically interviewing and getting job offers.

balance

Always best never to discuss pay, politics  or religion at work.  I have learned this the hard way. 

BradleyHU

balance said:

Always best never to discuss pay, politics  or religion at work.  I have learned this the hard way. 

Wish a few ppl on my team knew this. I just hear their conversation about politics & religion just smh...
There's almost nothing that gets me to stop talking to you faster than those 2 topics...especially when you have cringe worthy takes on the 2 of them

LonerVamp

My three taboos are sex, politics, or religion. That said, if I have a good team and we work really well together, chances are we can talk about a couple of those respectfully like friends.

At any rate, while I play devil's advocate about pay, I'm one of those described by @thomas_ . I tend to feel like I probably outperform my peers, and I don't really want to talk about it. That said, it still leaves me in the dark about the comparison.

balance

I use to tell people I made about 70% of what I actually made .   IT worked pretty well. No one feels upset when they think they are making more than you are.