Certifications and training, whre is the value?

binarysoul

A friend of mine, Tony, thought he had all it took to land his dream job. A degree in compuer science, CCNA, MCSE, A+, Network+, Security+, some Unix training, a good attitude and personality, some experience in technical support fixing everything from loss of connectivity because of network cable being unplugged to manually installing Win2K3 server and building servers.

Few days ago I bumped into him and he vented about IT and he said if were to do it all over again, he would never shop for an IT career again. He said all his training and certifications mean 'logos and paper' to employers. He complained that most employers did NOT consider his experience with equipment and technologies he worked with while getting trained and certified as experience. He's now working in a call center showing peple how to delete cookies and temp IE files and how to setup an email. I know him and he's very well-spoken person, so it's NOT lack of interview skills that he can't get a job.

His words really affected my perception of IT, not that I'm just easily influenced, but just that this is not the first person who has rigouresly complained about IT. So, if most employers do not value certificatoins and training, why just not go and work in a practice firm to get some expereince? I've come into contact with so many senior network admins who have had literally no training/certification in IT, some got there when IT was in demand, so some employres hired about anybody.

What's the value of cerifications/training, if they don't assist you get a job? If it's not expereince, then why the vendors certifity you? I now strongly suspect that cerifications are primarily there to generate profits for vendors than to provide value (expereince & security) to those who seek them. Most vendors such as Microsoft, Cisco, CompTIA and others claim that their certifications make you 'in high demand' while quite the contrary is true. It's true few do get jobs eventually, but that's not primarlily because of certifactions as most employers see them as mere 'logos and papers'.

You don't have experience and training/certifications don't count. What's the third option? There must be a viable alternative that would take you to a career within a reasonable timeframe. Of course you can try decades and get burnt out to go through 'certifications' path, but hey, we were born to live not to get 'certified'

BubbaJ

I think the experience that you gain while earning the certifications is looked at the same way any other industry looks at experience you gain in school. What the business is looking for is real-world experience, not the sort of structured experience gained in school. When you come out of school, you generally start at the bottom of your field of study. Job experience entails much more than actual hands-on of hardware and software - it has to do with a very wide variety of things like time management, people skills, etc. These are things that aren't really part of the experience you gain by earning a certification.

I'm not sure that there is a shortcut. I know Cisco prefers, but not requires, you to have experience before gaining the certification. I have used the certifications that I earned to advance a career that I had already started. You have to manage your own career; don't expect promotions just because you are doing a good job. You have to promote (as in advertise) yourself, and earning a certification or two will give you something to show that you are advancing your knowledge, but the experience that counts is what you do on the job.

SRTMCSE

As far as my experience certifications mean crap, but e-mail sig and business card eye-candy. I have a bunch and it hasn't help me land a job yet. A lot of ppl I know have more than me and interviewers don't even care. I just had the HR person at my job ask me what the letters on my resume meant and I was hired a year ago. I told her if she knew what they meant and how hard I worked for them they probably would've made a higher offer. But that's just the field. IT bootcamps are pumping out paper certificates faster than a Kinkos. Ppl who know how to use windows media player to rip mp3s are suddenly certified.

The only thing that is important is experience with college coming up second. It's a catch 22 b/c it's hard to find a job in a lot of regions without experience so you can't gain the experience to get a job.

I love IT but if I knew it would be like this I probably would've picked a different field. There's money to be made but it's way more cut throat. I started persuing a career in IT during the dot com era, my teachers were telling us..."you don't need college, a few of our students last year got jobs out of high school making over $85,000." and what did my (and a lot of ppl in my classes) dumb ass do...not go to college. I regret it now and thats why i'm persuing my BS in CS and AAS in InfoSec at the age of 22.

I know a lot of guys who can't catch a break in IT, but I know a few who got real sweet gigs. It just takes a bit longer, but you're right most employers value the toilet paper in the executive washroom more than our certifications. Maybe b/c they got burned by the MCSE, CCNP, Security+ that didn't know anything or b/c they have 90 applicants for one position and went with the cheapest , whatever it is, it's an employers market in IT and it blows. I only hope it evens out a little more.

Danman32

At the same time though, having the experience and not having the cert can also hurt you. I started job hunting in February, got few hits. I had the knowledge of MCSE, but I didn't actually have it. I only had A+, MCP on W2K server and Exchange, and CNE. In February I got the net+.

And I have been in the IT field for 16+ years.

Now that I have the MCSE, sec+ and CCNA, we'll see what happens.

Megadeth4168

Many employers I know value work experience more than certifications. Some however will not hire you unless you have certain certification (usually combined with some work experience).

Certifications have a different value for every employer and they can help you sstand out. I think the hardest things about the IT field is workign your way up to a certain amount of experience.

I had to work for 3 years as a part timer doing help desk stuff for $7-$8 per hour before landing something that was fulltime with much better pay.

BubbaJ

Danman32 wrote:

At the same time though, having the experience and not having the cert can also hurt you.

That's true. It could lead someone to believe your are happy with the status quo.

Danman32 wrote:

And I have been in the IT field for 16+ years.

Now that I have the MCSE, sec+ and CCNA, we'll see what happens.

Leverage your certifications with your experience, and your experience with your certifications. I don't know about the situation at your company, but you could get in someone's face about how you are growing professionally. They may not move until they know you want it and are trying to prove yourself.

keenon

may i chime in

IT is a field that anyone can compete in certified and non-certified, college educated or not. however, its a rough field especially for newbies fresh out of school with certs and the glow in their eyes. thinking that they should start at the mid to top,first gig making 40- 60k as they were told when signing up for classes I did the same thing many years ago.

the real truth is that you will surf the bottom for the first year or so for real working experience( with or without the cert) so gladly take the low pay as its like joining the army but without guns.. noone starts as a captain we all started as privates. waiting on the big break but >>we all must pay our dues << and theres no getting around that

I will tell you like a pimp.. if your good to the game, the game will be good to you but for now get on the track.. ( we all had to starting out)

binarysoul

But what's even more bothering that getting certs. is not a piece of cake. You have to study many saturday nights, miss parties, may even fail few exams until finally you get something. At the day end, it's our human nature to expect appreciation and not 'depreciation' for the hard work we put through.

I quit my last job to go back to school (for one year). Few employers I talked to don't value that not to mention I actualy moved to go back to school. I told them I didn't just decide to quit my job and put myself through some challenge, but it was because we live in a 'knowledge economy'. Not that I am looking for it, but I've yet to hear a potential recruiter appreciating the fact that I value education and knowledge.

Some basic network jobs I've seen list MCSE, CCIE, CCNA, CNE as 'required' or desired although the job is something has nothing to do with certs. Most recrutiers know the abbrivations, and they just list them. I just went to Monster.ca and found the following:

Sales / Customer Support

· Following up on assigned leads to create sales opportunities

· Researching target markets to find new prospects/companies and initiate direct contact with these prospects to develop new sales leads

· Developing a sales plan to convert leads into successful sales opportunities, including:

Desirable:

· MCSE/ CNE/ CCNA/CCNP/CCIE/CCSP Certifications

Pay starting $30,000 Candian, which may be about $25,000 US

Now you tell me, if they really value certifications?

keenon

binarysoul wrote:

Some basic network jobs I've seen list MCSE, CCIE, CCNA, CNE as 'required' or desired although the job is something has nothing to do with certs. Most recrutiers know the abbrivations, and they just list them. I just went to Monster.ca and found the following:

Sales / Customer Support

· Following up on assigned leads to create sales opportunities

· Researching target markets to find new prospects/companies and initiate direct contact with these prospects to develop new sales leads

· Developing a sales plan to convert leads into successful sales opportunities, including:

Desirable:

· MCSE/ CNE/ CCNA/CCNP/CCIE/CCSP Certifications

Pay starting $30,000 Candian, which may be about $25,000 US

Now you tell me, if they really value certifications?

i think its great you have done all that but if you WANT to let someone scare you and you don't really WANT to be in IT. every member on this forum has had bad and good times in this career and have questioned doing this further but we all came to the relazition we like what we do more than the BS we get from time to time.


that job posting is off.. recruiter must be as the description and certs don't mesh with each other

BubbaJ

binarysoul wrote:

getting certs. is not a piece of cake.

Funny you should mention cake. I was just speaking to a manager about this. His take was that experience is the cake, and cake is perfectly edible by itself. He views the certifications as the icing on the cake. The icing makes the cake so much more attractive, but is not very good by itself.


Getting certifications is hard work, but so is getting a college degree. Most people graduating college still start out at the bottom.

garv221

BubbaJ wrote:

Funny you should mention cake. I was just speaking to a manager about this. His take was that experience is the cake, and cake is perfectly edible by itself. He views the certifications as the icing on the cake. The icing makes the cake so much more attractive, but is not very good by itself.

Perfect.

binarysoul

I forgto to mention an important point: IT is my hobby, my passion and my close friend. I just have to mention that no matter what happens to IT, whether it becomes a 'sacred and holy', a devil, a low-paid career, a Bill Gates generator, I'm in IT for good. But because it's what I do and what I've been doing, we have to discuss all aspects of it.

I do have experience, about five years, I'm NOT desperate for a job. I see at IT as more than a job. I've mentioned to so many friends that if the day comes when there are a thousand people in the world who will uphold the 'IT flag', I will be one of them

So this discussion, by no means is to discredit IT, but just to talk about all aspects of it.

DO IT

Olajuwon

I totally agree that IT is questionable most of the time. You have to be strong to remain in IT. Some people have their career paved for them(they don't have to start at the bottom), but most of us IT junkies have to go through hard times.

I have said that on here several times. CERTIFICATIONS are nothing without the relevant work experience. Even with the experience it's not easy to get a job.

sprkymrk

Hey binary:
If it weren't for your last post I was going to ask if you wanted some cheese with that w(h)ine.

My experience has been close to what bubba describes as far as how certs are looked at in the IT field. Your friend is not the only college star who has had it tough when graduating to the real world. There are many, many, many (did I mention many?) others who have been very successful and/or lucky and got that good or great job right away. It sounds like he did all the right things and it just didn't work out. I'm sorry about that, but it happens. However, many of your statements that you made are only your observations and not facts. Everyone's personal experience will differ, and even if you know 10 guys with similar sad stories it's not even a drop in the bucket of statistics. For every sad story like that, there is another success story for someone else.

Let's not get spoiled or disillusioned about having to put in a couple of years to earn our stripes. The IT field is growing but is also becoming a little more exclusive and those who wish to compete must have the deck stacked with education, certs, technical skill, and soft skills.

To me, doctors are the ones who ought to complain. Minimum of 8 years of schooling (and no easy classes either) followed by 2-4 years of low paid, 18 hour days with no life as an intern and then when they are finally able to make 100+ grand a year they have to:
a. Be on call more than an IT guy ever imagined.
b. Pay back 75K+ in student loans.
c. Pay roughly half their income for malpractice insurance.
d. If you can believe it, deal with even dumber folks than what we call a "user".

binarysoul

Hey sprkymrk,

I agree with most of what you say, and after all if you choose to be in IT, you must be ready not to 'cut and run' on the first sign of trouble and I sure didn't when the dot com bubble bursted into pieces and some fled from IT as one would from hurricane Katrina

I'm here to stay.

For every sad story like that, there is another success story for someone else.

I agree with you, one should try to stay away from terming things in absolute terms. That's why if you read my posts, I also mentioned that one reason I raised this point was so we can discuss 'all' aspects of IT. So, 'all' includes "success" that you refered to and "frustration" with certifications that I raised. The net effect has always been a positive one.

Regards

sprkymrk

I'm with you binary. Your last post spelled it out for me and I was glad to see your outlook. Take care.

SRTMCSE

sprkymrk wrote:

Hey binary:
If it weren't for your last post I was going to ask if you wanted some cheese with that w(h)ine.

My experience has been close to what bubba describes as far as how certs are looked at in the IT field. Your friend is not the only college star who has had it tough when graduating to the real world. There are many, many, many (did I mention many?) others who have been very successful and/or lucky and got that good or great job right away. It sounds like he did all the right things and it just didn't work out. I'm sorry about that, but it happens. However, many of your statements that you made are only your observations and not facts. Everyone's personal experience will differ, and even if you know 10 guys with similar sad stories it's not even a drop in the bucket of statistics. For every sad story like that, there is another success story for someone else.

Let's not get spoiled or disillusioned about having to put in a couple of years to earn our stripes. The IT field is growing but is also becoming a little more exclusive and those who wish to compete must have the deck stacked with education, certs, technical skill, and soft skills.

To me, doctors are the ones who ought to complain. Minimum of 8 years of schooling (and no easy classes either) followed by 2-4 years of low paid, 18 hour days with no life as an intern and then when they are finally able to make 100+ grand a year they have to:
a. Be on call more than an IT guy ever imagined.
b. Pay back 75K+ in student loans.
c. Pay roughly half their income for malpractice insurance.
d. If you can believe it, deal with even dumber folks than what we call a "user".

i have to agree with you doctors got it rough. it's hard to find a doctor who at a young age is making a bit of money. from what i've seen in this field, about 10 years in jobs start popping up that pay quit a nice paycheck (as long as you have relevant experience). So that would put most IT pros in there early 30s. Most doctors aren't even out of med school until they're about 26.

garv221

I remember when I was starting out, I was on the grind. No experience sending resumes out everywhere, just hoping somone would hire a college kid. At the time it seemed normal to hunt for a job real hard, I wasn't asking much money and I never let it me down or complained that I couldn't find job. Oh, doctors have more like 160K to 250K in loans depending on undergrad studies. Law school alone is 100K and thats only two years. Its all about income to debt ratio.

Danman32

BubbaJ wrote:

Danman32 wrote:

And I have been in the IT field for 16+ years.

Now that I have the MCSE, sec+ and CCNA, we'll see what happens.

Leverage your certifications with your experience, and your experience with your certifications. I don't know about the situation at your company, but you could get in someone's face about how you are growing professionally. They may not move until they know you want it and are trying to prove yourself.

Oh, this job is gone already. It is by the grace of God and the company that I am still around due to remaining client obligations that I had time to study to catch up on my certs. Now that I have the certs, the resumed job search should be better.

....as its like joining the army but without guns.. noone starts as a captain we all started as privates. waiting on the big break but >>we all must pay our dues << and theres no getting around that.

Unless you are a doctor during wartime.

sprkymrk

Danman32 wrote:

....as its like joining the army but without guns.. noone starts as a captain we all started as privates. waiting on the big break but >>we all must pay our dues << and theres no getting around that.

Unless you are a doctor during wartime.

The doctor paid his dues before he got there.
BTW Danman, any idea how long you can hang on there? Have you done the resume shotgun yet? Good luck!

strauchr

I'd be pissed off if I had forked out all that money and spent all that time and effort on getting those certs with a basic crap job.

I started with nothing but a passion for IT and had most of my studying paid for me. Thats the way to go if you can get it.

Problem is too many learning companies are saying 'Look here is how much you get if you have these certs' They fail to mention the experience and hard work that goes into getting to those high paying jobs. So understandably people will get pissed off with the industry.

Still, as said before, people do question from time to time what they are doing in IT.

The best way to kill a hobby is to make it a job but then if you do something you enjoy then its not a job? To conflicting philosiphies to ponder over.

Danman32

New Horizons is supposed to set me up with a career consulting firm to polish the resume, interview skills, find leads, etc.

I have some time here, enough to find employment elsewhere without being unemployed involuntarily. They put me on the presales support for HP, so that too will buy me time. I found out by this that I really don't want to do presales or Systems Engineer (which is glorified and specialized presales).

binarysoul

Yes, doctors spend many many years going to school, paying high tuitions. And ohhhh we forgot to mention about dentists; I suspect they make more than anybody. Last few months I've been going to a dentist and two specailists and everytime I walk in there I'm there for about 30 mins and I pay like a briefcase of cash on the way back I had a root canal done and I paid $800. I chatted with my dentist for few minutes to setup treatment plan and I was charged $220. Would it be fair to charge them $220 to just install a NIC in their home PC? I suppose yes. If you know a dentist who needs some IT work done, let me know so I can retrieve all the cash paid and pay for my certs