I need help asking for a position change....

Megadeth4168

OK... Here is my situation. (Sorry this is a little long)
I have been where I am at for 6 years now. I make around 40K per year with full benefits. My current Job title is Information Systems specialist in an IT department of 2 (My boss and I). We Administrate, maintain and troubleshoot for 150 users (give or take) across 10 buildings.

My situation is this... I am in the same pay scale as Administrative Secretary and other similar positions. My goal is to have my employers reevaluate my Job title, duties and pay scale accordingly to get me to my goal of breaking 50k.

Here is what my job description looks like at my time of hire.

Considerable knowledge of the principles and techniques of computer system operations and procedures.
Knowledge of the use, application, and operation of computer operation programs.
Ability to design, develop, prepare, test, and debug computer programs.
Ability to think logically, analyze and interpret problems, present results with clarity and precision both in written and verbal form.
Ability to evaluate systems performance.
Ability to acquire knowledge of the functions of system users after a reasonable period of training.
Ability to direct the work of a small staff of clerical employees if so assigned.
Ability to distinguish confidential material and apply departmental standards for security and privacy.
Ability to establish and maintain effective working relationships with data systems and user personnel.
Ability to support users, with a variety of hardware, software, or operational problems by phone and at their site as required.

I do everything on that list but I also do some of the following...
Webpage maintenance
Public Access Cable Channel maintenance
Minor configurations with PIX firewalls, routers and switches
Lots of Active Directory administration
Purchase and/or make recommendations on new systems
Administrate changes on the phone system
Develop new plans and ideas to increase redundancy and efficiency
Setup Remote and maintain remote access
Setup and maintain several servers including centralized Antivirus server, Imaging Server and Print Server.
Network monitoring and troubleshooting
Disaster Recovery planning
The list just goes on with a ton of smaller jobs (probably a couple bigger items I can't think of right now as well)

Anyway... When I first got the job it required only an A+.
So much has changed and been added since I first started the job... I already have administrative rights to everything.

I'm almost thinking that a better title would be Systems Administrator or I might even stretch it and say Assistant MIS (My boss being the MIS Administrator).

Anyway I was going to wait until I at least had my MCSA before approaching this. Some people I have spoken with have told me I might be better off to wait until the union contract expires and try to change it then... that is 2 years off and with me getting married soon I think I'm starting to get a bit impatient with that Idea...

I would like to hear some oppinons from people around here.

Thanks for the time to read all of this!

garv221

Megadeth4168 wrote:

OK... Here is my situation. (Sorry this is a little long)
I have been where I am at for 6 years now. I make around 40K per year with full benefits. My current Job title is Information Systems specialist in an IT department of 2 (My boss and I). We Administrate, maintain and troubleshoot for 150 users (give or take) across 10 buildings.

My situation is this... I am in the same pay scale as Administrative Secretary and other similar positions. My goal is to have my employers reevaluate my Job title, duties and pay scale accordingly to get me to my goal of breaking 50k.

Here is what my job description looks like at my time of hire.

Considerable knowledge of the principles and techniques of computer system operations and procedures.
Knowledge of the use, application, and operation of computer operation programs.
Ability to design, develop, prepare, test, and debug computer programs.
Ability to think logically, analyze and interpret problems, present results with clarity and precision both in written and verbal form.
Ability to evaluate systems performance.
Ability to acquire knowledge of the functions of system users after a reasonable period of training.
Ability to direct the work of a small staff of clerical employees if so assigned.
Ability to distinguish confidential material and apply departmental standards for security and privacy.
Ability to establish and maintain effective working relationships with data systems and user personnel.
Ability to support users, with a variety of hardware, software, or operational problems by phone and at their site as required.

I do everything on that list but I also do some of the following...
Webpage maintenance
Public Access Cable Channel maintenance
Minor configurations with PIX firewalls, routers and switches
Lots of Active Directory administration
Purchase and/or make recommendations on new systems
Administrate changes on the phone system
Develop new plans and ideas to increase redundancy and efficiency
Setup Remote and maintain remote access
Setup and maintain several servers including centralized Antivirus server, Imaging Server and Print Server.
Network monitoring and troubleshooting
Disaster Recovery planning
The list just goes on with a ton of smaller jobs (probably a couple bigger items I can't think of right now as well)

Anyway... When I first got the job it required only an A+.
So much has changed and been added since I first started the job... I already have administrative rights to everything.

I'm almost thinking that a better title would be Systems Administrator or I might even stretch it and say Assistant MIS (My boss being the MIS Administrator).

Anyway I was going to wait until I at least had my MCSA before approaching this. Some people I have spoken with have told me I might be better off to wait until the union contract expires and try to change it then... that is 2 years off and with me getting married soon I think I'm starting to get a bit impatient with that Idea...

I would like to hear some oppinons from people around here.

Thanks for the time to read all of this!

What was your starting salary? Have you been given any pay increases? Your pay sounds a little low, but over a 10K year bump in pay is huge for your current salary.

Smallguy

Getting 10k wil probably be tough unless you leave the company espeically in a smaller IT dept where you can't really move up jsut increse your responsibility (it is moving up but not title changes)

if it were me I'd finish your MCSA thne shop around see what other companies are willing ot pay...even interview.. thne if you find a palce you could see your self working at tell your boss "hey i interviewed at company XYZ and they ofered me 50k a year. I've asked for a few days to respond and can you guys possiably match the offer?"

if they want to keep you they might match it or give you an increase of say 5k then it is your decission whether you want the extra 5k with a unknown company or if you want to take there offer.

Unions can be tricky because there is usually a range for example my friend works in a govn't union the salary for her position is 22.00-27.00 and hour. She jsut got promoted and the new range is 27.08-32.00 so even if her boss wanted to she can't make more than 32.00 an hour or less thna 27.08.

you might be very valuable to the company but inorder to get your 10k there could be alot of hoops.

have you considered freelancing or consulting on the side to make up that extra 10K because u do have alot of job security in Unions.

Megadeth4168

The only pay increases I've gotten have been my yearly 3% (Due to the union contract).

I'm not going about it as asking for a raise because then I would agree with you about the 10k jump being too much. I want to come to them with the idea that they need to reevaluate the position... Meaning, write a new job description up for it, new title and put it higher on the pay scale.

Besides my own reasons to want the raise I have 3 major points that I think are valid for the change in Job title ect...

1. I am pay scale 7 out of 15.... I'm stuck with Administrative secretary and Library technician! To me that does not seem right.... My job was really meant for the person before me who retired... She did mostly data entry and at the time I was part time when she left and the full time job opened up. They decided not to hire a part time person to replace my spot, so I got the tech work, the data entry and a whole bunch of new stuff...

2. There has been so much added to the job and so much that I am doing that the person before me never did.... besides working on all the server stuff and networking a prime example might be the 3 Major Database designs I've had to do this year. Instead of us spending 10K on buying software we were looking at that we could import in our old DOS Database system for the Fire Station Dispatch program they asked me if they thought I could create a database, import and fix up the data and program features into it that would mimic the old system.
After several months of programming and cleanup I completed the system and it is what they are now using. Even though the job description does say something about programming, it is something the other person could not have or would have done.

3. 2 positions have been vacant for a while... A GIS technician position and a concrete inspector... They decided to combine the 2 jobs and create a new position that is at the top of the pay scale (15K more than me). No offence to the guy who got the job (I know him and he is a good guy) but if that position makes that much I don't see why I can't... In fact I had first shot at it but because it was posted within the union first but I the job it self did not interest me.

It is not unheard (has happened 2 or 3 times I know of) where people have gotten a new job title, higher pay and new job description.
It also in not unheard of (Know a couple instances) where people have had added duties and have gotten more pay.

I really love my job and have no intentions of leaving. I'm sure it does not hurt to inquire about these possibilities. The only other option I have if I want better pay is to find a different job since there is no where to advance where I am at... Sad but true.

Anyway, sorry about the long rant. I do appreciate your input.

Megadeth4168

Smallguy wrote:

Getting 10k wil probably be tough unless you leave the company espeically in a smaller IT dept where you can't really move up jsut increse your responsibility (it is moving up but not title changes)

if it were me I'd finish your MCSA thne shop around see what other companies are willing ot pay...even interview.. thne if you find a palce you could see your self working at tell your boss "hey i interviewed at company XYZ and they ofered me 50k a year. I've asked for a few days to respond and can you guys possiably match the offer?"

if they want to keep you they might match it or give you an increase of say 5k then it is your decission whether you want the extra 5k with a unknown company or if you want to take there offer.

Unions can be tricky because there is usually a range for example my friend works in a govn't union the salary for her position is 22.00-27.00 and hour. She jsut got promoted and the new range is 27.08-32.00 so even if her boss wanted to she can't make more than 32.00 an hour or less thna 27.08.

you might be very valuable to the company but inorder to get your 10k there could be alot of hoops.

have you considered freelancing or consulting on the side to make up that extra 10K because u do have alot of job security in Unions.

I work a government Job as well. I fully understand how all of it works. My boss (I wish it was up to him) even agrees with me and told me I should wait until the contract is up for renegotiation. Like I said that is 2 years off.

Like I said I know at least 2 cases where someone has gotten 10K more just by working they system... They did not ask for a raise they asked for a new job title ect...

I have done side work before... Used to own a business with my best friend but he moved to florida and we disolved the business. the problem is that I dont have the time. I have decided to go back to school, I have my self study, I have all the wedding planning, marriage classes and catholic classes. Any free time I do have, I spend with my Fiance and her daughter.

It is a tough situation... I just want to know if I can pull it off or not. I already know I can jobs with less responsibilies for the same pay... I have been offered a couple (was not even looking). I also know that my future father in law is really pushing for me to work with him at his job... I really love this job though and would rather stay here and the only way I can make more money here is to ask for it and hope I get it... Or I can wait 11 years until my boss retires and put in for his job....

Smallguy

with the added info your best bet would be for a re-classifacation and new job description.

I'd go for the more accurate job desciption first get that approved

then come back with since we agree that I do alot more thna my previous job description can we get a title change/raise.


I think the key will be for them to formally reconignize your doing more than you were hired to do... leave anything about money out of it, then once you have new job description use that to get more money....even if it takes you 2 years to get that 10k it is still better than what your getting now.

only reason I'm saying leave mnoey out of it is so the company does;nt deney you off the bat, lots of palces when u bing mnoey in the picture are alot less liekly ot do anytihng...if you leave money outta the equation you usually encounter less of a hassel

Megadeth4168

Smallguy wrote:

with the added info your best bet would be for a re-classifacation and new job description.

I'd go for the more accurate job desciption first get that approved

then come back with since we agree that I do alot more thna my previous job description can we get a title change/raise.


I think the key will be for them to formally reconignize your doing more than you were hired to do... leave anything about money out of it, then once you have new job description use that to get more money....even if it takes you 2 years to get that 10k it is still better than what your getting now.

only reason I'm saying leave mnoey out of it is so the company does;nt deney you off the bat, lots of palces when u bing mnoey in the picture are alot less liekly ot do anytihng...if you leave money outta the equation you usually encounter less of a hassel

Sounds like a a very good idea. I think I might start putting together a sample for my boss to look at. If he likes it then I can take it even higher up.

I did leave out one other reason for my thoughts on doing all of this... I saw a couple months back a job posting (while my fiance was online looking) for another city (about 45 minutes away) that had a posting for Assistant MIS administrator. The job started at 55k and when I looked at the requirements and preferred requirements I met everything on that list and more... With the exception of the 4yr degree (part of the reason I'm going back to school). Basically the job was pretty much what I already do here...

garv221

Megadeth4168 wrote:

Smallguy wrote:

Getting 10k wil probably be tough unless you leave the company espeically in a smaller IT dept where you can't really move up jsut increse your responsibility (it is moving up but not title changes)

if it were me I'd finish your MCSA thne shop around see what other companies are willing ot pay...even interview.. thne if you find a palce you could see your self working at tell your boss "hey i interviewed at company XYZ and they ofered me 50k a year. I've asked for a few days to respond and can you guys possiably match the offer?"

if they want to keep you they might match it or give you an increase of say 5k then it is your decission whether you want the extra 5k with a unknown company or if you want to take there offer.

Unions can be tricky because there is usually a range for example my friend works in a govn't union the salary for her position is 22.00-27.00 and hour. She jsut got promoted and the new range is 27.08-32.00 so even if her boss wanted to she can't make more than 32.00 an hour or less thna 27.08.

you might be very valuable to the company but inorder to get your 10k there could be alot of hoops.

have you considered freelancing or consulting on the side to make up that extra 10K because u do have alot of job security in Unions.

I work a government Job as well. I fully understand how all of it works. My boss (I wish it was up to him) even agrees with me and told me I should wait until the contract is up for renegotiation. Like I said that is 2 years off.

Like I said I know at least 2 cases where someone has gotten 10K more just by working they system... They did not ask for a raise they asked for a new job title ect...

I have done side work before... Used to own a business with my best friend but he moved to florida and we disolved the business. the problem is that I dont have the time. I have decided to go back to school, I have my self study, I have all the wedding planning, marriage classes and catholic classes. Any free time I do have, I spend with my Fiance and her daughter.

It is a tough situation... I just want to know if I can pull it off or not. I already know I can jobs with less responsibilies for the same pay... I have been offered a couple (was not even looking). I also know that my future father in law is really pushing for me to work with him at his job... I really love this job though and would rather stay here and the only way I can make more money here is to ask for it and hope I get it... Or I can wait 11 years until my boss retires and put in for his job....

Check your PM.

sprkymrk

Megadeth4168 wrote:

Instead of us spending 10K on buying software we were looking at that we could import in our old DOS Database system for the Fire Station Dispatch program they asked me if they thought I could create a database, import and fix up the data and program features into it that would mimic the old system.
After several months of programming and cleanup I completed the system and it is what they are now using.

I agree with your thinking and encourage you to follow through. I do have 2 points I would add to the other suggestions that I think are important.

First, make sure you mention that you really enjoy your job, the people, etc. but would like them to consider your request based on your past performance and the market value of your skills. Tell them you have grown with the company and hope to continue to do so.

Second, be careful how you word things. When I read your post I immediately did the math in my head - $10,000 for a commercial program off the shelf vs. several months of in-house development at $40K/year might equal $20,000 in their minds. They might wonder if they made the right decision. Obviously, you did other work during this time and maybe it was only 2-3 months, but I just want you to be careful so you don't get blind-sided by mistake.

Best of luck to you!

dan87951

Maybe im just a little pessimistic because I don’t have a job but I have a bachelors degree in Computer Science, A+ certified, and will be MCP certified later this month and can’t get hired anywhere in Michigan. But the way the Michigan job market is I would be glad to just have a job making 40k if I was in your position especially if you don’t even have a college degree. With the way the economy is and the way the Michigan job market is I would be very careful on how you word your 10k increase because I’m sure they are aware that there’s plenty of other people that will take your place for less and might even be more qualified and be happy with the pay (me)!? Just something to think about! Good Luck!

Dan

plettner

Megadeth4168 wrote:

I work a government Job as well. I fully understand how all of it works. My boss (I wish it was up to him) even agrees with me and told me I should wait until the contract is up for renegotiation. Like I said that is 2 years off.

Like I said I know at least 2 cases where someone has gotten 10K more just by working they system... They did not ask for a raise they asked for a new job title ect...

I have done side work before... Used to own a business with my best friend but he moved to florida and we disolved the business. the problem is that I dont have the time. I have decided to go back to school, I have my self study, I have all the wedding planning, marriage classes and catholic classes. Any free time I do have, I spend with my Fiance and her daughter.

It is a tough situation... I just want to know if I can pull it off or not. I already know I can jobs with less responsibilies for the same pay... I have been offered a couple (was not even looking). I also know that my future father in law is really pushing for me to work with him at his job... I really love this job though and would rather stay here and the only way I can make more money here is to ask for it and hope I get it... Or I can wait 11 years until my boss retires and put in for his job....

I'm in the same position as you (except I ain;t getting married - that's another story!). I work in a government job and I've reached the end of my classification pay scale (about $51K AUD). Since I started 4 years ago, I do heaps more than what my classification says I should, such as network/server administration, programming, and a few other things. What's worse is we had three people in the team and two left so it's only myself. In order to get more coin, I need to ask my boss to be reclassified but it takes them too long and they always umm and ahh about regrading someone anyway. It's like drawing blood from a stone.

My answer has been to get a few certs. and go job hunting. Even if my boss did reclassify me, they still haven't bothered to refill the staff numbers.

garv221

dan87951 wrote:

Maybe im just a little pessimistic because I don’t have a job but I have a bachelors degree in Computer Science, A+ certified, and will be MCP certified later this month and can’t get hired anywhere in Michigan. But the way the Michigan job market is I would be glad to just have a job making 40k if I was in your position especially if you don’t even have a college degree. With the way the economy is and the way the Michigan job market is I would be very careful on how you word your 10k increase because I’m sure they are aware that there’s plenty of other people that will take your place for less and might even be more qualified and be happy with the pay (me)!? Just something to think about! Good Luck!

Dan

Where in MI?

dan87951

Looking for a Job near Lansing, Ann Arbor, Grand Rapids, and Jackson area.

Megadeth4168

sprkymrk wrote:

Megadeth4168 wrote:

Instead of us spending 10K on buying software we were looking at that we could import in our old DOS Database system for the Fire Station Dispatch program they asked me if they thought I could create a database, import and fix up the data and program features into it that would mimic the old system.
After several months of programming and cleanup I completed the system and it is what they are now using.

I agree with your thinking and encourage you to follow through. I do have 2 points I would add to the other suggestions that I think are important.

First, make sure you mention that you really enjoy your job, the people, etc. but would like them to consider your request based on your past performance and the market value of your skills. Tell them you have grown with the company and hope to continue to do so.

Second, be careful how you word things. When I read your post I immediately did the math in my head - $10,000 for a commercial program off the shelf vs. several months of in-house development at $40K/year might equal $20,000 in their minds. They might wonder if they made the right decision. Obviously, you did other work during this time and maybe it was only 2-3 months, but I just want you to be careful so you don't get blind-sided by mistake.

Best of luck to you!

The thing that took the most time and that would not have been included with the price of the software was the conversion of the old data... Old Dbase stuff.... Then taking the converted data and reorganizing it... Fun stuff....

Also as you mentioned about me doing other things as well.... This is very true, I probably actually spent 40 hours of actual work with the project. There were a lot of meetings with the Fire fighters about changes they wanted made and misc. stuff like that.

dan87951:
I know you are right about other people being happy with this. I am not unhappy with my pay but could use more money (houses in Oakland county are expensive)
I will have a family soon also... Right off the bat when I get married I have a child to worry about as well (fiancé has a wonderful daughter). I know other people are in similar situations but I feel I am in a position to ask for this at my current job.

Now, I know you are correct about having the degree and all but what I lack in a degree I make up for with 8 years experience in I.T. This is especially true for the 6 years I have here at my current job where there happens to be a tone of proprietary programs to learn... Someone really could not just walk in here and do the job right away; there would be about 6 months or so worth of training on many of the systems.

There are a couple major things I have learned over the past couple years. Number 1... The right amount of work experience is more valuable than a degree to many places. Number 2... Who you know can land you a job over someone more qualified on paper... If I really started focusing on my CCNA, I know I could go work with my Future Father in law (he really wants me to) and make 50-60k. Problem is that I really like where I'm at now and I don't know If I want to exclusively do networking right now ( I like the variety of responsibilities my job offers). If I really need the money that bad after I get married I may take that option to provide a better life for my family though.

I do appreciate all teh input everyone has given me on this.
Really, I was looking for short answers lol... Something like, Yes I think you could pull this off based on the situation or No, I don't think you have enough to go on.

Anyway, Thank you everyone for your thoughts.

garv221

dan87951 wrote:

Maybe im just a little pessimistic because I don’t have a job but I have a bachelors degree in Computer Science, A+ certified, and will be MCP certified later this month and can’t get hired anywhere in Michigan. But the way the Michigan job market is I would be glad to just have a job making 40k if I was in your position especially if you don’t even have a college degree. With the way the economy is and the way the Michigan job market is I would be very careful on how you word your 10k increase because I’m sure they are aware that there’s plenty of other people that will take your place for less and might even be more qualified and be happy with the pay (me)!? Just something to think about! Good Luck!

I disagree, its similar to a guy telliing me not to guy a boat just because he cannot afford one.

The market is not that bad, only for people starting off with no experience and contacts.

Where do you currently live now in MI?

Megadeth4168- This is kind of cheesy but makes sense...I remember co workers & friends joking around & giving me a hard time when I bought my bmw. I kind of 2nd guessed why I bought it. My G/F reeled me back in my saying don't let anyone make you feel like you don't deserve something you want. Its true man.

Megadeth4168

Not to keep this thread going or anything but 1 last question...

What should I ask them to change my Job title to? What would be most fitting?

I found out that they would not getting rid of the Information Systems Specialist position if I were to get a new position... This is because there is one other person in our organization with this job title as well... She does Records and very little computer support (99% of the time calling me)...

I found out that the ISS job was really meant more for Data entry than anything.

sprkymrk

Anything IT related that does not contain any of the following phrases/words:

Junior
Assistant
Help Desk
Desktop
Sales
Gopher
Mascot

Megadeth4168

sprkymrk wrote:

Anything IT related that does not contain any of the following phrases/words:

Junior
Assistant
Help Desk
Desktop
Sales
Gopher
Mascot

Yeah... Except... I saw another City that had a spot for Assistant MIS.... Otherwise I was thinking something along the lines of Systems Administrator...

garv221

I would try to slide in a "Director" or "Coordinator" title.

Megadeth4168

garv221 wrote:

I would try to slide in a "Director" or "Coordinator" title.

Hmmm.... Not a bad Idea.... I will have to look into this further. Thanks for the suggestion.