is network "engineer" a REAL engineer?

here is an interesting question for you guys

do you guys think network engineeer can be considered as a "engineer" without his/her P.E. ?

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frankj1247

Here's a question to your question.

If I clean toilets for a living can I be considered a Sanitation Engineer? One more, if I get my P.H.d in Women's studies does the make me Dr. Loverboy Underpants?

TheShadow

Suppose that I drive a train and my name is Choo-Choo Charlie; am I still a Railroad Engineer like they have been called for over a hundred years? In reality the term depends on the locale and has been beat to death for years in various on line forums. In Canada I believe they sued Microsoft over the title MCSE but in the U.S. no one cares. P.E. is a specific title just like all the others and questioning it now is just cause for controversy. Someplace's they think that only a medical doctor or dentist should be called doctor locking out all the Ph.D's giving us a "Through the looking glass" scenario. i.e. what's in a word.

bighornsheep

computerguy9355 wrote:

here is an interesting question for you guys

do you guys think network engineeer can be considered as a "engineer" without his/her P.E. ?

personally I think no, in Canada, legally it is a no as well. However, what I do not agree with is the fact that Engineering students coming out of universities and calling themselves engineers. What gives them that right?

I believe this is the legal implications of the word engineer in Canada, and as TheShadow has stated this was made clear since Microsoft's MCSE lawsuit.

"Anybody can be in engineering; students, professionals, designers and etc. So IT Professionals could be Network Engineers, because they are engineering computer networks, however they are NOT engineers because legally an engineer has to be licensed by the board, and in order to be licensed, you have to have your PEng."

That's why I think Engineering students are NOT engineers until they have their PEng, and they have no right to use "Engineer" just because they studied it.

wildfire

I disagree, I was orgionally an Electronics engineer, and I dont even know what PEng is, it must be a Americas thing! I moved from Electronics to Servers then eventually now Networks, but the principle of engineering still applies.

as someone said to me once

"Every technological product has to be designed and its fabrication overseen, and this is what engineers DO."

"The crucial and unique task of the engineer is to identify, understand, and integrate the constraints on a design in order to produce a successful result"

"Engineers use their knowledge of science, mathematics, and appropriate experience to find suitable solutions to a problem."

So in short Im a Network Engineer!

Edit

A PE is a CEng in the UK (chartered Engineer)

bighornsheep

wildfire wrote:

I disagree, I was orgionally an Electronics engineer, and I dont even know what PEng is, it must be a Americas thing! I moved from Electronics to Servers then eventually now Networks, but the principle of engineering still applies.

as someone said to me once

"Every technological product has to be designed and its fabrication overseen, and this is what engineers DO."

"The crucial and unique task of the engineer is to identify, understand, and integrate the constraints on a design in order to produce a successful result"

"Engineers use their knowledge of science, mathematics, and appropriate experience to find suitable solutions to a problem."

So in short Im a Network Engineer!

Again, this has alot to do which locale you are from. I have doubts that UK differs from Canada, I am sure they have similar protection of the term "Engineers".

I grew up in HK when it was still commonwealth, and HK had basically the same law about Engineers and Engineering as in Canada. So I am pretty sure UK will have the same sort of laws as well.

I dont mean devalue,disrespect you in way, shape, or form, because I personally have tons of respect for you and all that you have done including your website.

I'm only commenting on what I know is the difference and why ___ Engineer is not necessarily an Engineer.

You are Electronics Engineer, Systems Engineer, Network Engineer because you engineer eletronics, systems and networks. This is by definition and language. But you are not an Engineer by law because an Engineer is defined by law to be a licensed Engineers. In other words, no engineer is an engineer unless they have their P.Eng license.

In the same way, you can't call yourself CCNA,MCSE, and etc. even if you have gone through all the classes and did really well, you still have to actually write the exam and pass to get your CCNA, MCSE and etc.

wildfire

I can see your point here, and don't worry you did not offend me

. I know that the only legal requirement in the UK is that for certain jobs (i.e. building a bridge) a CEng must charter the project. My Actual Job description is Senior Network Design and Implementation Engineer. There are only about 100K CEng's in the UK and about 12 Million "Engineering Type people" I am not CEng as it requires you to have 10 years experience and I don't work with Electronics anymore (thank God!)

The only protected Term here is Chartered Engineer, the term Engineer is used even in goverment run qualification schemes, I.E if you pass the 16th Edition Wire regulations here you become legally an Electrical Engineer.

I know this is different in Canada, in much the same way I can't call myself a Dr Wildfire (Doctorate of Networks!!).

bighornsheep

wildfire wrote:

I know that the only legal requirement in the UK is that for certain jobs (i.e. building a bridge) a CEng must charter the project.

There are only about 100K CEng's in the UK and about 12 Million "Engineering Type people" I am not CEng as it requires you to have 10 years experience and I don't work with Electronics anymore (thank God!)

I dont remember exactly, but that might have been the term in HK as well...I do know that C.Eng is probably P.Eng in UK. Just like the CA (Chartered Accountant) is the license for Professional Accountants.

sprkymrk

This subject has been beat to death before.
Engineer is a word with a meaning, and if some silly association wants to claim that word all for themselves let them get a copyright on it.

In Canada I believe they sued Microsoft over the title MCSE

Microsoft ought to sue Canada right back and make them call all those little squares of glass in cars and buildings "see through holes" or something since MS has a copyright on "Windows".

bighornsheep

sprkymrk wrote:

Microsoft ought to sue Canada right back and make them call all those little squares of glass in cars and buildings "see through holes" or something since MS has a copyright on "Windows".

hahaha....didnt MS themselves get sued for copyrightting such a regular word? and I believe their copyright on the word "Windows" has restrictions.

garv221

I agree with Wildfire, in my mind & everyone elses an engineer was someone he just described. If someone has to pass an exam & board to be called an engineer how come no companies request proof of that exam when hiring Network/system/Data Engineers? So this board was the first group of people to snag the word engineer,who cares.

TheShadow

Even though I don't agree with capturing the word specifically because it is two words that are protected "Professional Engineer" and "Chartered Engineer", they do have a purpose. The title identifies someone that is licensed to certify government safety and specification standards and is required by bonding and insurance companies to protect the general population. That keeps things like bridges, roads, buildings, electrical transmission etc from falling down, or exploding under normal use. So protect both words in the title when used together, otherwise, why not stop everyone from using the words professional or chartered singularly; i.e. no "professional" baseball player or "chartered" airplane pilot. Whats in a word, the whole argument is rather silly really.

computerguy9355

hmm, some interesting replies, thanks all

so i guess the whole point is who cares whether if you are a system engineer, network engineer, as long as you can make a decent living. Thats all it matters.

Olajuwon

computerguy9355 wrote:

so i guess the whole point is who cares whether if you are a system engineer, network engineer, as long as you can make a decent living. Thats all it matters.

There you go, sometimes we forget that.