jobless MCSE

francoo

the market is flooded of jobless MCSE holders

Slowhand

The market is flooded with a lot of people: MCSE holders, Network+ holders, CCNA holders, even CISSP's. Sometimes things are good and (almost) everybody works, sometimes things are bad and you have to struggle and fight to get an entry-level job.

crap I forgot my old pwd

Go get a CCIE then

Plantwiz

francoo wrote:

the market is flooded of jobless MCSE holders

Flooded with CPA's and Attorney's too.

If you want to work in a particular field...keep your skills sharp and keep pounding the pavement. It may even require moving. There is work for people with good skills and good work ethics. Stay educated and stay positive.

Otherwise......lots of work available in the restaurant businesses. It's out there.

mikej412

francoo wrote:

the market is flooded of jobless MCSE holders

After trying to hire an MCSE for a lab position, we gave up on the flood of MCSEs who couldn't even get past a phone technical interview and went back to the non-MCSE resume reject pile and found someone with no MCSE but lots of experience. He had no problem with the phone interview, his references and experience checked out, and he's doing a great job.

Slowhand

mikej412 wrote:

After trying to hire an MCSE for a lab position, we gave up on the flood of MCSEs who couldn't even get past a phone technical interview and went back to the non-MCSE resume reject pile and found someone with no MCSE but lots of experience. He had no problem with the phone interview, his references and experience checked out, and he's doing a great job.

I sat in with my college professor when the school was hiring for lab assistants and some extra staff for the IT department. I had a couple of MCSE's who didn't know what an MMC was, a CCNA that asked "which one's the router?" when he was asked to plug a cable into a router so he could show us that he was able to configure it. There were tons of people who were A+ certified that didn't know a CPU from their own butts. . . but, in the end, they ended up hiring two people who showed that they'd actually earned their certs. One was an MCSA on Windows 2000, along with Network+ and A+, the other had a couple of CheckPoint security certs and a CCNA, so it worked out pretty well.

When you get a lot of people doing **** and/or simply learning how to take the tests instead of learning how to work in the field, you'll get saturation. The MCSE suffers badly from this kind of reputation, as do a lot of the CompTIA certs, as well as Cisco, LPIC, etc. . . you just have to show that you're not a paper cert, and there's a good chance you'll be able to get a job when others fall behind. Having a cert shows you passed the test(s). Having a cert and experience shows that you probably earned that cert, and are now working with what you learned.

Kaminsky

Slowhand wrote:

I sat in with my college professor when the school was hiring for lab assistants and some extra staff for the IT department. I had a couple of MCSE's who didn't know what an MMC was, a CCNA that asked "which one's the router?" when he was asked to plug a cable into a router so he could show us that he was able to configure it. There were tons of people who were A+ certified that didn't know a CPU from their own butts. . . but, in the end, they ended up hiring two people who showed that they'd actually earned their certs. One was an MCSA on Windows 2000, along with Network+ and A+, the other had a couple of CheckPoint security certs and a CCNA, so it worked out pretty well.

Exactly what I keep saying. It comes down to a thorough interview process to weed out the shortcut certifiers. "Which one is the router?" GAH! That's got to be the biggest "wtf?" you have said in a long time.

Even where I live 50 miles south of London, England I have noticed the pay sales for MCSE is dropping fast and even a minimum requirement for simple jobs where MCSE knowledge is nothing to do with. With so many certified and tending to congregate in large cities, the money for the cert goes down exponentially. These low paying jobs have people taking the low pay for reasons like desperation for a job or shortcut certifiers just trying to get their foot in the door to get some experience so the pay keeps dropping. There is always someone willing to take ever lower pay.

There is another factor here. I have years of being a pc support manager then moved on to 5 years managing Novell and MS servers for a 5000 userbase and I am having to try get an MCSE just to authenticate my work experience or for that sort of work I won't even get interviewed most of the time which is rediculous to my mind.

blargoe

Plenty of jobs out there for experienced MCSE's. For MCSE's with no experience doing MCSE-caliber work, apply with helpdesk or desktop support.

remyforbes777

I don't hire people so I don't have any stories related to that but I know there are two MCSE's working the help desk where I am employed and even one of them has their CCNA, but you would never know from looking at their help desk tickets. They solve nothing and if you start talking geek to them they clam up with these blank stares on their face. It's funny because an MCSE should be a valued cert and something to be proud of but instead it's getting a bad rep because of people such as these. I have had numerous interviews for Net Admin and I don't even have an MCSE. I always fall short because of lack of experience but I always have very positive interviews and the potential employers always see that I have a lot of passion, drive and determination. I just interviewed recently for an IT admin job so wish me luck.

sprkymrk

Plantwiz wrote:

francoo wrote:

the market is flooded of jobless MCSE holders

Flooded with CPA's and Attorney's too.

If you want to work in a particular field...keep your skills sharp and keep pounding the pavement. It may even require moving. There is work for people with good skills and good work ethics. Stay educated and stay positive.

Otherwise......lots of work available in the restaurant businesses. It's out there.

What Plantwiz said...
I would also add the market is flooded with unqualified folks with certs of all kinds. There is also a lack of qualified IT folks with or without certs.

We couldn't even get 3-4 decent people to interview for a couple of tech jobs in the last year, let alone hire someone qualified. These were DoD contract jobs with great benefits and starting in the $20/hour range. I couldn't believe the lack of turn out for these openings. We had to settle for promoting one individual from within who was not and still is not qualified. The second position we hired a guy with 2 Bachelor degrees, one in CS, who didn't know what a hard drive was when the computer was opened. If I were the boss rather than the 2nd man in charge both these individuals would have had the door slammed on their butts months ago. We could do without them for several months and not notice an appreciable difference in the workload.

If you can prove your worth in an interview you should be able to land a job.

sthomas

Like others said here if you have a good amount of experience in IT and an MCSE you should be able to get a job without much difficulty.

zebra-3

there was a colleague of mine claiming out loud he had a few MCP, when I started to talk to him about MCP to find out which MCPs he was holding, I found out he couldn't even give me an exam number...

same scenario happened last week with another tech, he was claiming he is only missing the cert for Windows XP to be MCSA, at lunch I started to speak with him about MCPs and found out it was bullshit all the way, especially in the afternoon I went to fix an issue in only a few minutes after he had spend 2 hours trying to fix it....

I have the proof with the chat log I had with him he is not MCP, but it is in french...

ajs1976

zebra-3 wrote:

there was a colleague of mine claiming out loud he had a few MCP, when I started to talk to him about MCP to find out which MCPs he was holding, I found out he couldn't even give me an exam number...

I guess I don't know what i'm doing. I just can't seem to remember the exam numbers or the exams I took back in '00 and '01. Without looking them up does anyone remember the numbers for SITE, TCP/IP, Exchange 5.5, and Networking Essentials?

zebra-3

ajs1976 wrote:

zebra-3 wrote:

there was a colleague of mine claiming out loud he had a few MCP, when I started to talk to him about MCP to find out which MCPs he was holding, I found out he couldn't even give me an exam number...

I guess I don't know what i'm doing. I just can't seem to remember the exam numbers or the exams I took back in '00 and '01. Without looking them up does anyone remember the numbers for SITE, TCP/IP, Exchange 5.5, and Networking Essentials?

MCPs are different, you remember more easely the exam numbers as you have to know which exams to get to have the mcsa for exemple.

taktsoi

although market is flooded with MCSE, I believe having MCSE is better than none.

However, speaking of the qualifications and experience, what expertise level does the company look for ??? What set of skills does the company set? a wide range of knowledges' guy? junior admin guy, or helpdesk guy?

People who are MCSE certified may have different levels of expertise. Some are paper certifed, I rate 0/10. Some are helpdesk tier 2, i rate 4/10. Some are junior admin, i rate this 7/10, some are experience level. i rate 10/10.

In such case, for example, lets say your expertise level is only about 6 and need to develop the skills more maturely. However, the company expects more weights on MCSE. They interview you, hire you and find out that your expertise can't contribute their company anything as they are looking for some other set of skills not just windows environment yet such as CISCO stuffs or Linux for examples . They may imply you are only the test world MCSE implicitly. As a consequence, this is a result of jobless MCSE.

I believe companies expect more weight on MCSE and thats how it causes the flood of MCSE.

just my 2 cents

ajs1976

zebra-3 wrote:

ajs1976 wrote:

zebra-3 wrote:

there was a colleague of mine claiming out loud he had a few MCP, when I started to talk to him about MCP to find out which MCPs he was holding, I found out he couldn't even give me an exam number...

I guess I don't know what i'm doing. I just can't seem to remember the exam numbers or the exams I took back in '00 and '01. Without looking them up does anyone remember the numbers for SITE, TCP/IP, Exchange 5.5, and Networking Essentials?

MCPs are different, you remember more easely the exam numbers as you have to know which exams to get to have the mcsa for exemple.

From your profile it looks like you have taken 4 exams. After you have taken 18+ exams over 8 years, let me know if you can remember all the exam numbers without looking them up.

Passing SITE, TCP/IP, and Exchange 5.5 would have given me MCP status. SITE was a requirement for an MCSE and the other two were electives. The Networking Essentials exam did not count towards MCP status. I would have gotten my MCP when I passed the NT 4.0 Workstation exam, which I think was 073.

drakhan2002

taktsoi wrote:

although market is flooded with MCSE, I believe having MCSE is better than none.

Very true. ANYTHING you can do separate yourself from the pack will give you the edge you need to get the interview. Once you're in the interview, how well you present yourself - your confidence, your personality, your ability answer questions, even your dress will all be what you're graded on.

Once on the job, your ability to execute will determine if they will keep you.

I wish the OP all the luck in the world. The MCSE is still a viable certification. The world pretty much runs on Windows. I'm sure there is a match out there for you - hang in there!

garv221

francoo wrote:

the market is flooded of jobless MCSE holders

Funny. I will care when the market is flooded with experienced, hard working IT gurus.

blargoe

Trust me when I say an MCSE on a resume with no work experience is NOT a positive. At least it hasn't been at any company I've worked for.

Ahriakin

garv221 wrote:

francoo wrote:

the market is flooded of jobless MCSE holders

Funny. I will care when the market is flooded with experienced, hard working IT gurus.

+1

x_Danny_x

some of the folks dont get the opportunity to land a job because not given the chance to begin with for such a long time and have to settle for something else.

i for instance didnt get hired for anything for a long period of time and took this blasted telecommunications job. i had to learn what the job required which was nothing related to what i studied in all my certs.

i understand like some say that you need to keep it up and keep hacking but if you are doing some other type of job that you didnt even studied, your skills from what you learn from your certs is going to decrease.


if someone cannot answer some very easy questions such us knowing the hardrive, then yeah, dont hire them but Certs are just that, paper certs. They are supposed to help you land some entry level job and with little to no expereance required. I dont know how people with certs and no experience are going to compete with guys that have experience.

helms20

IMHO I think that one of the reasons is that many MCSE's with no experience feel to proudful to work for an entry level job. Alot of the people I have talked to say "I have my MCSE so why would I work for HELPDESK?" Unfortuanately for them they are stuck in a dead end job and cannot even get an interview.

One of the best things you can do to get your "foot in the door" is to apply to any job that you believe you would be interested in and can actually perform the work. Many companies say they want xx amount of experience but in the end are willing to accept someone that is willing to learn and work. Unfortuantely the bad part about this is the pay rate which has been mentioned previously.

mikey_b

We have a lot of people here doing server and exchange support, probably 20 or so combined. Less than a quarter have an MCSE, although they all do MCSE-level work. There are elements of design and planning when they are involved with project work even though they are not part of the technical architecture team - the TA's do the high level design but the admins always have input on the planning and are involved in the design, and the daily support duties cover a wide variety of topics including DNS/DHCP admin work, network printing, user accounts, scripting, policy creation, documentation, site monitoring, DFS, security, etc. Basically everything a hiring company could ask for from an MCSE. Even though I only hold my MCSA, I outcertify about a third of their team, even though they have more experience. I, to be honest, would hire them over myself when it comes to those kinds of roles. Although, as a big plus, I'm all set to move into a role within their team should one of them move on

Plantwiz

x_Danny_x wrote:

some of the folks dont get the opportunity to land a job because not given the chance to begin with for such a long time and have to settle for something else.

I respectfully disagree.


The only reason people DON'T get the job they want is they make choices preventing it. There are just as many poor-kid from the projects making a successful life for themselves as there are poor-kid from the projects choosing to place obstacle after obstacle in their own way.
Grant it, life can deal you a bad hand, but that doesn't mean you have to quit the game...stay in and keep playing.

In the US our gov't GIVES away enough money to 'under-privileged' people that there is NO excuse to not be successful. Thing is....just because a person has the doors held open doesn't mean they wake up to success...it takes work!

So it really doesn't matter if you are given everything from birth or have to fight for what you need....to maintain or grow requires work.

In the business world this may mean networking. People networking is amazing. Many businesses like to hire 'friends' because they generally come with a built in reference of 'this guy is trustworthy'.

Road blocks people choose to prevent them from being successful:
-quitting school and poor school habits (ex. not concerned about lower ed classes because you'll never use the stuff. Or thinking college is a big party and not studying).

-having a child or children before being ready.

-Gambling/drinking (ex...spending money that you could be investing in more education, saving to move, saving to invest in yourself for your own business).

-living above what you earn. (ex. at 20 years old thinking you NEEEED to live in a house that is furnished just like your parents, because you NEEEED to maintain that lifestyle that took your parents 35 years to build and you want it overnight).

-poor work ethic. (ex. failure to show interest in even the 'little' jobs we start with. You never know who you'll meet who can help you later on).

-tons of other negative thoughts and actions that keep oneself in a downward spin.

****

For a while in the US people lived under this bubble that the 'company' will take care of them. Wake up. Go to work. work for 30-40 years. Retire. The company helped save money and gave it back to you when you left. Today, you have the opportunity to save your OWN money and INVEST it YOUR way so you can have much, much more then a pension from the 'company'.

Here's the thing, we are making huge changes as a country in our industry. One can chose the 'road block' path and say..."there's no work" or you can relocate to the areas where there 'IS' work. We've just had things too good for too long and people have forgotten that they may need to relocate. Once the job position is filled, if you REALLY want that job, you need to take a different job and continue to campaign yourself for the job or start your own business.

As Dave Ramsey often reminds his listeners..."If you want to live like no one else...you need to LIVE like no one else". Make good choices. Live on less then you make. WORK. To be a millionaire...live like a millionaire. To be poor....live like the poor.


All the paper certifications in the world don't 'make' the job candidate more employable. Your personality, attitude, energy, experiences make YOU employable.


I highly recommend the book:
"QBQ! the Question Behind the Question: Practicing Personal Accountability at Work and in Life " by Miller, John G

helms20

Well said Plantwiz, well said.

x_Danny_x

Plantwiz wrote:

x_Danny_x wrote:

some of the folks dont get the opportunity to land a job because not given the chance to begin with for such a long time and have to settle for something else.

I respectfully disagree.


The only reason people DON'T get the job they want is they make choices preventing it. There are just as many poor-kid from the projects making a successful life for themselves as there are poor-kid from the projects choosing to place obstacle after obstacle in their own way.
Grant it, life can deal you a bad hand, but that doesn't mean you have to quit the game...stay in and keep playing.

In the US our gov't GIVES away enough money to 'under-privileged' people that there is NO excuse to not be successful. Thing is....just because a person has the doors held open doesn't mean they wake up to success...it takes work!

So it really doesn't matter if you are given everything from birth or have to fight for what you need....to maintain or grow requires work.

In the business world this may mean networking. People networking is amazing. Many businesses like to hire 'friends' because they generally come with a built in reference of 'this guy is trustworthy'.

Road blocks people choose to prevent them from being successful:
-quitting school and poor school habits (ex. not concerned about lower ed classes because you'll never use the stuff. Or thinking college is a big party and not studying).

-having a child or children before being ready.

-Gambling/drinking (ex...spending money that you could be investing in more education, saving to move, saving to invest in yourself for your own business).

-living above what you earn. (ex. at 20 years old thinking you NEEEED to live in a house that is furnished just like your parents, because you NEEEED to maintain that lifestyle that took your parents 35 years to build and you want it overnight).

-poor work ethic. (ex. failure to show interest in even the 'little' jobs we start with. You never know who you'll meet who can help you later on).

-tons of other negative thoughts and actions that keep oneself in a downward spin.

****

For a while in the US people lived under this bubble that the 'company' will take care of them. Wake up. Go to work. work for 30-40 years. Retire. The company helped save money and gave it back to you when you left. Today, you have the opportunity to save your OWN money and INVEST it YOUR way so you can have much, much more then a pension from the 'company'.

Here's the thing, we are making huge changes as a country in our industry. One can chose the 'road block' path and say..."there's no work" or you can relocate to the areas where there 'IS' work. We've just had things too good for too long and people have forgotten that they may need to relocate. Once the job position is filled, if you REALLY want that job, you need to take a different job and continue to campaign yourself for the job or start your own business.

As Dave Ramsey often reminds his listeners..."If you want to live like no one else...you need to LIVE like no one else". Make good choices. Live on less then you make. WORK. To be a millionaire...live like a millionaire. To be poor....live like the poor.


All the paper certifications in the world don't 'make' the job candidate more employable. Your personality, attitude, energy, experiences make YOU employable.


I highly recommend the book:
"QBQ! the Question Behind the Question: Practicing Personal Accountability at Work and in Life " by Miller, John G

yo, what do you think i have been doing? i have been applying all over the place, going to job fairs, talking to friends who are working and using them as networking.

i got a Bachelors and Masters in Computer Science and continue to educate myself by getting A+, N+, MCSA, and CCNA certified (failed twice before passing it).

im doing whatever it takes to stay in the game. the thing is when you got a job that is way different from what you studied for and have to take time to learn the materials, it is going to take a toll on your knowledge that you learned from what you studied for.

it takes a toll on you and you will lose knowledge of what you studied from the certs.

that is my situation and im trying to get out. im am doing things that helps maintain my knowledge such as helping friends with computer problems and still reading the books that i have from certs. still that is nothing compared to what you learned from experience of working for a company! experience is what they want most, not Certs unless the certs are so high value that they will give you a job for having it such as the CCIE.


all those jobs that want 2-3 years experience i cant get cause i got 2-3 years expericene of doing some other type of tech work.

Ahriakin

It all counts. Experience can (and usually does) outweigh certification initially but it's still not a perfect mark of competency - never met someone who's been working the same system for years but hasn't really a clue why or how it works? Technology changes and they're as much use as a paper-tech. Good interviews will root out the talent whether it was experience or certification that got them in the door. Both are valuable, neither is a golden ticket to a job.
Also presentation is as important as the content when trying to get that first interview, you have to make a strong favourable impact to get picked out of the heap. To start with if you are not getting any replies try restructuring your resume. I did some major work on my own after reading a few articles on how most CVs are electronically sorted these days - build your CV to be searchable, the best approach is like a professional web-page while being conscientious of key words that a database search would likely look for when HR are trying to fill the kind of job you want. Do not presume a human will see it on the first pass.
If you are getting interviews but no callbacks take a long hard look at your mannerisms, dress, humility vs. confidence vs. arrogance etc. Take as much time evaluating their body-language as your own, did they seem at ease around you, or where they sitting back arms folded etc. You need to make them want to work with you, as much as you have to prove you can do that actual work.

Lastly as was mentioned what type of jobs are you applying for? It's all too easy to gain your CCNA and then apply for jobs mentioning it as a requirement, most of which are out of your reach exp. wise . I agree it's hard to get that pre-requisite experience in the first place so you are likely going to have to take a junior position and work up. Try smaller companies where you are likely, even as desktop support, to end up wearing many hats, helping the network admin. etc. Time in the trenches is not fun, and your certs can help minimise your tour of duty but you still need to do your time.

Plantwiz

Ahriakin wrote:

It all counts. Experience can (and usually does) outweigh certification initially but it's still not a perfect mark of competency - never met someone who's been working the same system for years but hasn't really a clue why or how it works? Technology changes and they're as much use as a paper-tech. Good interviews will root out the talent whether it was experience or certification that got them in the door. Both are valuable, neither is a golden ticket to a job.
Also presentation is as important as the content when trying to get that first interview, you have to make a strong favourable impact to get picked out of the heap. To start with if you are not getting any replies try restructuring your resume. I did some major work on my own after reading a few articles on how most CVs are electronically sorted these days - build your CV to be searchable, the best approach is like a professional web-page while being conscientious of key words that a database search would likely look for when HR are trying to fill the kind of job you want. Do not presume a human will see it on the first pass.
If you are getting interviews but no callbacks take a long hard look at your mannerisms, dress, humility vs. confidence vs. arrogance etc. Take as much time evaluating their body-language as your own, did they seem at ease around you, or where they sitting back arms folded etc. You need to make them want to work with you, as much as you have to prove you can do that actual work.

Lastly as was mentioned what type of jobs are you applying for? It's all too easy to gain your CCNA and then apply for jobs mentioning it as a requirement, most of which are out of your reach exp. wise . I agree it's hard to get that pre-requisite experience in the first place so you are likely going to have to take a junior position and work up. Try smaller companies where you are likely, even as desktop support, to end up wearing many hats, helping the network admin. etc. Time in the trenches is not fun, and your certs can help minimise your tour of duty but you still need to do your time.

Well said!!!


x_Danny_x,
I was responding to your comment, but my comments were addressed to anyone they applied to.

Doing the same thing over and over and getting the same results...should flag If what you are doing isn't working for you....time to do something different or somewhere else. It is possible you are doing everything but your market is flooded. However, go into an interview with a 'you owe me this job' attitude or 'I'll never get it anyway' attitude....a good HR person will smell the fear or overconfidence and look for someone else.

And on the going to school and not working in your degree of choice???? I know few people who are able to work in their degreed field. I myself could be a CPA or a Horticultrist and yet have found myself in IT. A friend of mine went to school as a Forrestry Major and is working in propagation for a bedding plant grower. My neighbor has a Masters in language and Early Child development and works on a farm.

Sometimes what we think our 'calling' isn't what it really ends up becomming.

If you haven't landed your perfect IT job, keep trying and take an honest look at YOU (and this goes for anyone who is complaining there isn't work). There must be something else you are able try differently in your approach??

Ahriakin has some very good points!

Mishra

An interview should be studied for just like a certification. You should go find a few interviews then write down questions you were asked after each interview. Compile the list and then write answers for every question. Peer review your answers with other to make sure it sounds like the correct thing to say.

Study your answers before going into an interview, then when they ask you, you are 100% prepared. You sound more intelligent and experienced if they ask you "What did you do in your past jobs?" if you don't answer with "uhhhh I think I uhh did this and I kinda worked on this".

Once they start doing the technical interviews, make sure to do the same thing. Study what the business wants you for and make sure you have good technical answers to back up their questions.

seccie

I love reading threads like this, I get a lot a motivation when I read it.

I suppose it requires an approach to succeed, not certs. You can't expect, if you get a particular cert, it will solve problems in your professional life. You get to the next level, but the game continues.
I try to learn something every single day. A cert is a roadsign for me, what to learn, but it's not the goal. And a cert passed without knowledge (e.g. only with braindumps) is a wasted time.
To sum up my sense-of-life thoughts: if you can use the knowledge required for a cert, learn it. Try to find out who you want to become (admin?), what you need to know for it, and which certs will be roadsigns on your learning path.

garv221

x_Danny_x wrote:

im doing whatever it takes to stay in the game. the thing is when you got a job that is way different from what you studied for and have to take time to learn the materials, it is going to take a toll on your knowledge that you learned from what you studied for.

x_Danny_x wrote:

some of the folks dont get the opportunity to land a job because not given the chance to begin with for such a long time and have to settle for something else.

I do not agree either, it is like those employees who expect a raise just for being employed with a company for a certain length of time or expect promotions because of seniority. It doesn't work like that, it has to be earned. Just because you apply to tons of places doesn't warrant a job. I think maybe you are looking at everything to negatively, any experience you have in IT can be one way or another altered in your resume to your benefit. I have had great successes early in my career by always thinking about my resume while I am working on a job and how I can relate this work to my resume. I had a resume ready to go before I even started typing. I could take a crappy bench tech job and snatch 4 or 5 key experiences and wrap that into part of my resume.