Why is everyone on the "get a real router" bandwag

mysql1988

I need help understanding this.....................

Some CCNA questions are simulated..............why should I get a real router when I am going to be taken a test in a simulated environment?

Dont you think a router simulator will help me on a test which is simulated, than a real router?

I can understand the whole logic behind this because obviously, It will help you in the real world when you practice on real equipment.

But why should I get a real router when I will be taken a test which is simulated? I think practicing on a simulator will get the job done interms of passing a simulated CCNA test

SrAtechie

Hi mysql,

I was asking the same question when I began my CCNA studies a month ago as well and I agree with you in all regards. I think you answered your question well in that working on an actual router gives you the hands-on experience you'll need once you hit the production environment. Also, if I may add, my own experience working with actual routers in a lab setup has given me the confidence to work with the simulator. I started off with Boson's netsim but I could never get comfortable simply because I wasn't sure if the simulator truly worked and reacted as a real router or switch does. Now that I have a real lab at home, I gained the confidence that boson indeed has created a simulator that emulates the real thing quite well. I now go through simple labs with my my real lab and set up more complex ones with the simulator. So as someone who utilizes both a real lab and a simulator for practices, I can say that it truly is a personal choice and I personally think that either option is more than adequate to gain the hands on experience to pass the exam.

DirtySouth

Theres no doubt that working with real equipment is the ideal situation. However, I do NOT believe you have to use real routers in order to understand the Cisco objectives and pass the CCNA. If you don't have access to the equipment & don't have the money to buy some used equipment, just make do with what you have.

There are some good simulators out there like Boson that have just about every command you will need to pass the CCNA. Just make sure you understand all of the physical aspects to routers and switches like how you hook them up and what cables to use to interconnect the devices.

Good Luck!

mikej412

mysql1988 wrote:

why should I get a real router when I am going to be taken a test in a simulated environment?

It's usually easier to learn and retain the information when you are actually doing the stuff.... but I have said before that for the CCNA the Boson Simulator will get you by. Some Network Academies in third world countries can't afford the hardware labs (or Boson), and those students get by with the flash eLabs in the courseware.

Just remember, if you actually plan to use the CCNA to get a job, a person with some hands on experience, even if its just in a home lab, may have an advantage over you.

Slowhand wrote:

I sat in with my college professor when the school was hiring for lab assistants and some extra staff for the IT department. I had a couple of MCSE's who didn't know what an MMC was, a CCNA that asked "which one's the router?" when he was asked to plug a cable into a router so he could show us that he was able to configure it. There were tons of people who were A+ certified that didn't know a CPU from their own butts. . .

So at least look at pictures of routers before any job interviews.

mysql1988

mikej412 wrote:

mysql1988 wrote:

why should I get a real router when I am going to be taken a test in a simulated environment?

It's usually easier to learn and retain the information when you are actually doing the stuff.... but I have said before that for the CCNA the Boson Simulator will get you by. Some Network Academies in third world countries can't afford the hardware labs (or Boson), and those students get by with the flash eLabs in the courseware.

Just remember, if you actually plan to use the CCNA to get a job, a person with some hands on experience, even if its just in a home lab, may have an advantage over you.

Slowhand wrote:

I sat in with my college professor when the school was hiring for lab assistants and some extra staff for the IT department. I had a couple of MCSE's who didn't know what an MMC was, a CCNA that asked "which one's the router?" when he was asked to plug a cable into a router so he could show us that he was able to configure it. There were tons of people who were A+ certified that didn't know a CPU from their own butts. . .

So at least look at pictures of routers before any job interviews.

I have two years experience in a cisco academy where I unpluged and pluged cables everyday. I just dont see the importance of studing for a simulated exam with a real router when the test itself is simulated.

mikej412

mysql1988 wrote:

I have two years experience in a cisco academy where I unpluged and pluged cables everyday. I just dont see the importance of studing for a simulated exam with a real router when the test itself is simulated.

After two years of experience, then you shouldn't have to study for the SIMs at all -- on real or simulated hardware.

mysql1988

mikej412 wrote:

mysql1988 wrote:

I have two years experience in a cisco academy where I unpluged and pluged cables everyday. I just dont see the importance of studing for a simulated exam with a real router when the test itself is simulated.

After two years of experience, then you shouldn't have to study for the SIMs at all -- on real or simulated hardware.

reason why I am back on the Sims is because I want to keep practicing the commands(including some CCNP) commands to the point where I can type them without having to think twice if I did the right thing or not. stuff like QOS, IPsec,VPN and some advanced commands because I am thinking about eventually hitting the jackpot(CCIE)

Daniel333

Coming from someone in the learning stages of networking and computers in general.

I don't want to be the guy, who shows up to an interview who is only certified on paper. For me, I just know, doing the real thing has taught me more than I was learning on simulators. I've run into, and troubleshooted situations that just can't happen on a simulator. It leaves more room for error, and in this situation, that's a good thing.

I guess I am of the school of thought, "until you've done, you can't do it. "

my $.02

mikej412

We have been mentioning Dynamips/Dynagen in the CCNP and CCIE forums, but since the Layer 2 Switching stuff still needs some work, we're hiding it from the CCNA forum.

And at the CCIE wannabe level -- Dynamips/Dynagen is the current killer app.

With Boson at the CCNP level, you spend too much time fighting software bugs.

garv221

mysql1988 wrote:

But why should I get a real router when I will be taken a test which is simulated?

There is nothing like the real thing.

darkuser

did you use a "car simulator"

or did you learn to drive by using a real car ???

and that's silghtly more expensive then 2 2501's and a serial x-over cable.

and routers don't require insurance.

boyles23

I am studying for my CCNA right now also, and I purchased two routers and a switch to practice on. I personally think that having your hands on them and seeing the physical aspects of them can't be replaced by a sim. I like the sims but I always say go for the real thing if you can and if you can't, then no big deal and use the sims. I also think that when you go for a job interview that a company would be more impressed with the fact that you have your own lab and have experienced how things work, even though on a smaller scale.

My .02 also!

mysql1988

darkuser wrote:

did you use a "car simulator"

or did you learn to drive by using a real car ???

and that's silghtly more expensive then 2 2501's and a serial x-over cable.

and routers don't require insurance.

most Pilots learn how to fly with a 3D flight simulator

darkuser

and eventually they've got to get into a cessna ..... or buy microsoft flight sim

markzab

darkuser wrote:

and eventually they've got to get into a cessna ..... or buy microsoft flight sim

Flight sim is the ****.

mikej412

Things you don't want to hear your pilot say:
"Wow!! This is just like Microsoft Flight Simulator!!"

Things you don't want to hear the new hire CCNA say:
"Gee -- this real router works totally different than Boson Simulator?!?"

markzab

mikej412 wrote:

Things you don't want to hear your pilot say:
"Wow!! This is just like Microsoft Flight Simulator!!"

Things you don't want to hear the new hire CCNA say:
"Gee -- this real router works totally different than Boson Simulator?!?"

tech-airman

mysql1988 wrote:

mikej412 wrote:

mysql1988 wrote:

why should I get a real router when I am going to be taken a test in a simulated environment?

It's usually easier to learn and retain the information when you are actually doing the stuff.... but I have said before that for the CCNA the Boson Simulator will get you by. Some Network Academies in third world countries can't afford the hardware labs (or Boson), and those students get by with the flash eLabs in the courseware.

Just remember, if you actually plan to use the CCNA to get a job, a person with some hands on experience, even if its just in a home lab, may have an advantage over you.

Slowhand wrote:

I sat in with my college professor when the school was hiring for lab assistants and some extra staff for the IT department. I had a couple of MCSE's who didn't know what an MMC was, a CCNA that asked "which one's the router?" when he was asked to plug a cable into a router so he could show us that he was able to configure it. There were tons of people who were A+ certified that didn't know a CPU from their own butts. . .

So at least look at pictures of routers before any job interviews.

I have two years experience in a cisco academy where I unpluged and pluged cables everyday. I just dont see the importance of studing for a simulated exam with a real router when the test itself is simulated.

mysql1988,

I too went through the Cisco Networking Academy and graduated from Semester 4. It was during my Semester 2 hands-on final that I learned a valuable lesson. The lesson was about "Layer 1" issues. So there I was, configuring the routers and plugging in the cables. Tried to ping from Router1 to Router5. It wouldn't work. I verified all the configurations and they were all correct. Now, keep in mind, this is under proctored "hands on final" conditions with the time limit. So I started to troubleshoot each individual link between the routers. Eventually, I narrowed it down to a "bad serial cable." It was confirmed when I replaced the "bad serial cable" with another serial cable, and voila, ping from Router1 to Router5 worked. Now, this is working with real Cisco routers in my Cisco Networking Academy compared to a Router Simulation. A router simulation would NEVER have Layer 1 issues to troubleshoot, therefore you'd miss out on one of the important skills to have of troubleshooting Layer 1 issues. As you may or may not know, Layers 2 through 7 may all malfunction due to a Layer 1 issue because that's the last link of encapsulation and decapsulation. A layer 1 issue may cause the bridges/switches of Layer 2, routers and layer 3 switches of Layer 3, and any relevant server infrastructure to become junk if one or more cables are bad or disconnected.

So, I can understand the "get a real router" bandwagon side of the argument.

sprkymrk

mikej412 wrote:

Things you don't want to hear your pilot say:
"Wow!! This is just like Microsoft Flight Simulator!!"

Or even worse:
"Uh oh, this never happened in the Flight Sim!"

Or worst:
"Maybe if I just reboot the control panel..."

tech-airman

mysql1988 wrote:

darkuser wrote:

did you use a "car simulator"

or did you learn to drive by using a real car ???

and that's silghtly more expensive then 2 2501's and a serial x-over cable.

and routers don't require insurance.

most Pilots learn how to fly with a 3D flight simulator

mysql1988,

Title 14 of the Code of Federal Regulations Part 61 under Subpart A through Subpart G permits the use of a flight simulator or flight training device for flight training leading to a pilot certificate issued under 14 CFR 61 if the flight simulator or flight training device is certified to meet the requirements of 14 CFR 61.4. If the flight simulator or flight training device is not authorized under 14 CFR 61.4 then the flight simulator or flight training device may not be used to comply with 14 CFR 61.56 or 14 CFR 61.57.

markzab

tech-airman wrote:

mysql1988 wrote:

darkuser wrote:

did you use a "car simulator"

or did you learn to drive by using a real car ???

and that's silghtly more expensive then 2 2501's and a serial x-over cable.

and routers don't require insurance.

most Pilots learn how to fly with a 3D flight simulator

mysql1988,

Title 14 of the Code of Federal Regulations Part 61 under Subpart A through Subpart G permits the use of a flight simulator or flight training device for flight training leading to a pilot certificate issued under 14 CFR 61 if the flight simulator or flight training device is certified to meet the requirements of 14 CFR 61.4. If the flight simulator or flight training device is not authorized under 14 CFR 61.4 then the flight simulator or flight training device may not be used to comply with 14 CFR 61.56 or 14 CFR 61.57.

That being all well and good...you don't see a new pilot telling anyone he's only flown on a simulator before and this is his first go at the real thing.

I'd be lighting up my smoke faster than you could scream ****!

remyforbes777

I am studying for my CCNA now and I have the Boson Sim's, but i opted to pay for an open lab at my nearby school. Only 3 credit hours at 84 each. They have 1700's, 2950.s and 3500's for me to play with 4 hours a day, 2 days a week for 9 weeks. As an aide to help me I asked the instructor that after I am done configuring my network , i will walk out the room for a few minutes while he wreaks havoc. He switched cables, turned off ip protocol and did a couple of other devious things that i had to figure out. Let's see a SIM do that.

markzab

remyforbes777 wrote:

I am studying for my CCNA now and I have the Boson Sim's, but i opted to pay for an open lab at my nearby school. Only 3 credit hours at 84 each. They have 1700's, 2950.s and 3500's for me to play with 4 hours a day, 2 days a week for 9 weeks. As an aide to help me I asked the instructor that after I am done configuring my network , i will walk out the room for a few minutes while he wreaks havoc. He switched cables, turned off ip protocol and did a couple of other devious things that i had to figure out. Let's see a SIM do that.

If I'm not mistaken, isn't that part of what they do for the CCIE lab?

sprkymrk

markzab wrote:

remyforbes777 wrote:

I am studying for my CCNA now and I have the Boson Sim's, but i opted to pay for an open lab at my nearby school. Only 3 credit hours at 84 each. They have 1700's, 2950.s and 3500's for me to play with 4 hours a day, 2 days a week for 9 weeks. As an aide to help me I asked the instructor that after I am done configuring my network , i will walk out the room for a few minutes while he wreaks havoc. He switched cables, turned off ip protocol and did a couple of other devious things that i had to figure out. Let's see a SIM do that.

If I'm not mistaken, isn't that part of what they do for the CCIE lab?

They also did that to me on the hands-on portion of the 2nd semester final at my Cisco Academy. Setup and configure a rack of 5 routers (4 2500's and an odd duck) and 2 switches (model forgotten), test and verify. Leave the room for 5 minutes and come back to find and fix the 3-4 things the instructor broke.

mikej412

markzab wrote:

If I'm not mistaken, isn't that part of what they do for the CCIE lab?

Not any more since they went to the one day lab format. They figure you'll make more than enough mistakes on your own that you'll have to troubleshoot.

DirtySouth

remyforbes777 wrote:

I am studying for my CCNA now and I have the Boson Sim's, but i opted to pay for an open lab at my nearby school. Only 3 credit hours at 84 each. They have 1700's, 2950.s and 3500's for me to play with 4 hours a day, 2 days a week for 9 weeks. As an aide to help me I asked the instructor that after I am done configuring my network , i will walk out the room for a few minutes while he wreaks havoc. He switched cables, turned off ip protocol and did a couple of other devious things that i had to figure out. Let's see a SIM do that.

That sounds like an awesome idea! I wish my instructor would have done that.

NightShade1

mikej412 wrote:

We have been mentioning Dynamips/Dynagen in the CCNP and CCIE forums, but since the Layer 2 Switching stuff still needs some work, we're hiding it from the CCNA forum.

And at the CCIE wannabe level -- Dynamips/Dynagen is the current killer app.

With Boson at the CCNP level, you spend too much time fighting software bugs.

You can do a virtual trunking with a real switch to your comp to the routers you got in your simualtion....
Doesnt that fix the layer2 problem? heh
Yeah you still have to buy a switch but he its just a switch.... it isnt routers and switches...

markzab

mikej412 wrote:

markzab wrote:

If I'm not mistaken, isn't that part of what they do for the CCIE lab?

Not any more since they went to the one day lab format. They figure you'll make more than enough mistakes on your own that you'll have to troubleshoot.