Job dillema (long post...need input)

/usr

I've had the same job for just over 4 years now. Close to a year ago, I became a full time employee. When we were discussing my salary, I told them what I wanted and what I had been offered by a couple other companies. At that point, the HR manager told me he would work to get my salary up over the course of a year by scheduling periodic reviews and giving me small raises. His reasoning for this was that he couldn't give me a huge raise when I went from intern to full-time employee. At that point, I assumed he was being truthful.

Since then, I have asked twice, only to be blown off. There has been no "review" or discussion of my raise. He has told me that a raise will take effect on July 24th, but has not told me the amount. I have a feeling that it isn't going to be anything significant.

I feel as though I have been deceived. What makes it worse is that my attempts at discussing it are met with short responses, if acknowledged at all. I feel that since they have hired me, they no longer care whether or not I receive more money.

I've checked salaries for the area. For the most part, they range from $5,000-$15,000 more than what I'm making per year, for doing the exact same work.

Onto where I need suggestions....

I am considering taking a construction job that I have available to me, come mid/late August. I would be making a significant amount more, especially due to the overtime and per diem I would receive for being away from home. Due to my situation, recently moving out, and so on, it has hit a point where I actually need more money.

If I kept another job for a year, completely unrelated to IT, would it be difficult to get back into the field, assuming I at least keep studying and get some certifications while I'm not actually doing IT work?

iDShaDoW

I would assume that if you have 4 years of IT-related experience under your belt, taking a year off to work in another field wouldn't really matter.

You could always tell them that you weren't making enough money to make ends meet where you were, so you had to switch up jobs while you searched for another IT job that compensated you better or more fairly while allowing you more personal time to obtain more knowledge and certifications for your IT career.

Don't take my word for it though. I'm new to the "corporate" world myself.

Does suck that you're underpaid for the average in your area, my situation is the same but I don't have prior work experience so I gotta take what I can for now.

sprkymrk

You've waited this long, so now just give it until the 24th (or whatever paycheck comes with the pay raise effective the 24th) and make your decision then. If it's fair, then you might want to stick around. If it's insignificant as you suspect, take the construction job if you are willing to risk the possibility of a tough time getting back into IT. I think it may indeed be tough to get back in, especially in your case where you might have to take a pay cut from your construction job. Have you looked for another IT job that might offer a pay raise and the opportunity for advancement? That might be an alternative to either staying where you are not treated fairly and leaving the field all together.

Good luck whatever you decide, and keep us posted.

Technowiz

Would a $5k to $15k raise still not be enough for you to make a living? If you are worth that much more then why would you stay where you are now? I would think long and hard about taking that construction work. For one thing not only will your skills be rusty if you try to get back into IT but you will have that much less experience than you would have had if you had stuck with IT. Not only that but if the construction job is paying more it is really hard to go from a higher paying job to a lower paying one. A lot of people plan to do something like that and 20 years later they are still working construction or whatever it is they had planned on doing short term. So if you really want to be in IT I would caution against making that kind of move unless you absolutely have no other options. That said, a man has to eat and only you know your situation and what is best for you. Hope it works out for you.

mysql1988

Companies pay you according to your worth. If you get an MCSE with 4 years of experience you will be making good money. I always tell people who want raises, company will only pay you according to your worth. Someone with your certification level should not make over 45K and that is the truth. It might hurt but that is the truth. In IT experience counts but advance certification like CCNP and MCSE can take you a long way. My advice to you is to get an MCSE and then look for a new job

keatron

mysql1988 wrote:

Companies pay you according to your worth. If you get an MCSE with 4 years of experience you will be making good money. I always tell people who want raises, company will only pay you according to your worth. Someone with your certification level should not make over 45K and that is the truth. It might hurt but that is the truth. In IT experience counts but advance certification like CCNP and MCSE can take you a long way. My advice to you is to get an MCSE and then look for a new job

Be careful, because worth is not always determined by certifications and education, and not even experience always. For example, a person with 5 years experience as a Windows admin wouldn't be worth nearly as much if he moved to a 100% Solaris environment. Also, remember that regardless of what stats say and what salary surveys say, to the particular company in question, you're only worth what they'll pay you. Period. So I strongly suggest following Mark's advice and waiting until the 24th to see what happens. The raise could be just what the doctor ordered. If it's a measly raise, and you feel confident that you're worth way more, then go ahead and diplomatically make move. On your exit interview, ask them why they feel you're not worth more than they're willing to pay. Either way it goes, try to keep down as much negative energy as possible (I know it's tough considering the circumstances), but maintain your professionalism and move on to better things.

Another black and white way to look at it is you're worth at least what the construction job is willing to pay you. If it's 30,000 more than you make now, then you're worth 30,000 more than you make now, just maybe not in IT. In 1999 someone doing construction work and making more than anyone who even knew how to turn a computer on was unheard of (almost), but times have changed, and they will continue to do so. Besides, a years break might be what you need to refresh and come back strong. Good luck.

TechJunky

Being a person who has gone through exactly the same thing you are describing...

Moving into construction was the best move I had ever made.

I went into becoming an electrcian and starting I made 3hr more than what I had worked my way up in the computer industry in 2 years time. So basically those two years were wasted. After 4 years time I was making 28hr with paid benefits, paid 401k and great health and welfare bennies. I worked for the IBEW.

I am now back into computers due to a bad back injury. I stepped back into IT after 4 years making almost as much as I was as an electrician. So that should give you an idea.

I now hold multiple talents so if I feel I am not getting paid what I want in the IT industry I always have something to fall back on.

Most trades you just need 4000 hours for a residential Journeyman's license and 8000 for a commercial license.

Commercial Journeyman in my area make 34hr plus paid bennies, health and 401k. None of it comes out of your pocket. IMO, construction is bigger now than it ever has been.

snadam

sprkymrk wrote:

You've waited this long, so now just give it until the 24th (or whatever paycheck comes with the pay raise effective the 24th) and make your decision then. If it's fair, then you might want to stick around. If it's insignificant as you suspect, take the construction job if you are willing to risk the possibility of a tough time getting back into IT. I think it may indeed be tough to get back in, especially in your case where you might have to take a pay cut from your construction job. Have you looked for another IT job that might offer a pay raise and the opportunity for advancement? That might be an alternative to either staying where you are not treated fairly and leaving the field all together.

Good luck whatever you decide, and keep us posted.

tend to agree with sprkymrk here. I would wait for any move until you see what happens in 3 weeks. You also mentioned that you have been doing job searches in your area that have a better salary rate. From the sound of things, your desired job field has at least a few good positions available in your area. Have you considered job hunting for an IT position while still working at your current job (if all goes bad)? I would consider the construction a LAST RESORT. Again, its your call in the end; good luck with your decision

drthtater

I would wait for any move until you see what happens in 3 weeks.

Have you considered job hunting for an IT position while still working at your current job (if all goes bad)?

Agreed. Just hold out and see what the raise is.

Also, have you thought about going to anyone higher than the HR manager?

I would consider the construction a LAST RESORT.

Not neccessarily. It's good work, and it pays the bills. I did that in between IT jobs.

snadam

drthtater wrote:

Not neccessarily. It's good work, and it pays the bills. I did that in between IT jobs.

im not knocking on construction (did my fair share of landscaping in the hot AZ sun for a bit). It is good work and good pay. Given his options though, I would consider the construction job as his last resort. Im also advising this given the assumption that he doesn't want to leave the IT field unless he has to.

michael_knight

I don't know what the market is like out by you, but my suggestion is to put your resume on Monster and Dice now! Tell them that Your available August 1st or whatever two weeks after the 24th is. I would go against doing the construction thing unless your really strapped for money. There will be a gap in your resume and you will get rusty, the other thing is if you take that construction job now and make 15-20k more than what you are making it may be tough for you to go back to where you were in IT financially. My suggestion is to just look for another IT job and forget about the construction job, and of course don't say anything or show any change in attitude that may be interpreted as you looking. If you made up your mind to leave, don't say another word to your boss about money, it will make his reaction to your resignation so much sweeter

/usr

In the middle of responding to this post yesterday, I was called into my manager's office. He let me know the raise had gone through, the amount, etc. However, apparently they're only giving me half now and half in December. I think the total comes to around an extra $10-12 a week. After that, my reviews/raises will come every 6 months. I left yesterday afternoon reasonably disappointed, because my assumptions were correct. The amount I was told I would receive in a year, based on the current raise percentage, will take me around 2 years to reach. Had I received the full amount now with another review in December, I may have been a little more optimistic.

I realize a company will "only pay what you're worth". However, right before I took this job I was offered a programming job starting out at around $40k per year, but required me to drive an hour each way from where I live now. I considered taking this job and when I was hired here full time, I let them know about this offer because they asked. I let them know the amount as well. That was the point where the HR manager told me within a year, he would get me up to $40k. Now, after 2 raises since that point, I am still not what I would call "close" to that.

I was hired on here as a tech and I could understand my somewhat low wage. However, I have since moved on to doing .NET programming for a Fortune 500 company that has plants throughout the U.S., as well as other countries, and continues to lead in it's industry. These programs are used throughout this plant on the manufacturing line and there is current discussion of them being deployed throughout the organization. I am constantly praised for my work on these programs, even by the company president. I feel as though I'm being taken advantage of, considering the work I do. Whether those feelings are accurate or not, I don't like feeling that way about my employer.

I've worked construction before and will most likely be hired in as an iron worker. Thus, I'll be making a significant amount more than what a laborer starts out at. That, plus the 10-20 hours of overtime each week and $35 a day per diem, will be a good bit more. Honestly, that kind of work doesn't bother me at all. I actually enjoy it and have been thinking of taking a break from IT, anyway.

That said, if I do decide to take this job, I would have a lot of free time. I'll be living alone in an apartment wherever I'm working, 6 days a week or so. I plan on using this time to study for certifications, since it's been a while. I know I would have a gap in my resume, but certainly with 4 years solid experience with a Fortune 500 company, a Bachelors in MIS, the certifications I currently have plus whatever I pursue when I work the other job, I would be able to land a reasonable job even if I do have to take a pay cut from the construction job.

Just as a note. I check Monster.com, as well as another newspaper job site that lists tons of jobs within 50 miles of me, daily. I've contacted nearly every PC shop in my city and asked about part time work (in addition to working here), but none of the shops really need any help (small, poor city). I've had one tell me they will need a part time tech in mid August. I've applied for a couple programming jobs and have yet to hear anything, also. I've even applied for a weekend position stocking shelves for Coca-Cola, that pays nicely. Honestly, unless I want to work 80 hours a week and take a second job that pays minimum wage, it just doesn't look like I'll be able to find much.

I really appreciate all of the replies. I know this is a long post...

sprkymrk

Only $10-12 a week?

I would take that as a slap in the face. Geez, that's like what, 25 cents an hour? Big whoop. Why don't they just offer you a McDonald's cheeseburger and fries for lunch every day, because that's about what it amounts to.

I would find another job fast - construction or otherwise. These bozos you work for now will never change. When you turn in your 2 weeks notice, ask your manager if you should be satisfied with a 25 cent an hour increase when you had a verbal agreement with HR of much higher expectations. Tell him the money is only part of your concern, and that working for a company that lacks integrity and loyalty is your bigger issue.

Good luck.

shednik

sprkymrk wrote:

Only $10-12 a week?

I would take that as a slap in the face. Geez, that's like what, 25 cents an hour? Big whoop. Why don't they just offer you a McDonald's cheeseburger and fries for lunch every day, because that's about what it amounts to.

I would find another job fast - construction or otherwise. These bozos you work for now will never change. When you turn in your 2 weeks notice, ask your manager if you should be satisfied with a 25 cent an hour increase when you had a verbal agreement with HR of much higher expectations. Tell him the money is only part of your concern, and that working for a company that lacks integrity and loyalty is your bigger issue.

Good luck.

Not sure if i could have said it better then that...alot like my current employer and i'm just biding my time until I can leave and never look back!

snadam

sprkymrk wrote:

Only $10-12 a week?

I would take that as a slap in the face. Geez, that's like what, 25 cents an hour? Big whoop. Why don't they just offer you a McDonald's cheeseburger and fries for lunch every day, because that's about what it amounts to.

I would find another job fast - construction or otherwise. These bozos you work for now will never change. When you turn in your 2 weeks notice, ask your manager if you should be satisfied with a 25 cent an hour increase when you had a verbal agreement with HR of much higher expectations. Tell him the money is only part of your concern, and that working for a company that lacks integrity and loyalty is your bigger issue.

Good luck.

+1 Thats lame... Good luck finding another job.

Sounds like you made up your mind leaving, but if you wanted, you could always find a way to professionally inform your boss how 'extremely disappointed you are and this is not what the company agreed with me when you started'. Who knows, maybe they buckle under the pressure! Ive seen it before.

/usr

I have yet to receive a check that reflects the raise, but I saw the amount yesterday and was told I would receive half now, half in December. I figured it up and it's roughly $10-12 a week more after taxes.

Looking at the amount right in front of me, it comes to $30 a week before taxes.

But, that's the full amount, so it will be around $15 a week before taxes until December, then another $15 a week until June 2008.

This will be my only increase from July 2007, until June 2008. It says so at the top of the paper.

At this rate, I wouldn't even hit $40,000 with the June 2008 increase.

Wow....

/usr

Thank you all for your feedback. I really appreciate it...

I will keep you all updated.

Turgon

Are you really committed to this company if you did get the pay rise you think are due?

That's the big question really. Would you stay?

If the answer is yes, and you are already prepared to walk if the money offer isn't improved to something you believe is fair then take your pay claim to the President. You say he rates your contribution.

If he doesn't intervene then you are really not that valuable to the organisation. Then walk into the alternative job.

You have nothing to lose.

I would however make sure to get a good portfolio of work and reasons why put together before you go to the president with your pay claim and make sure you demonstrate commitment to stay providing you get an improved offer. It maybe that he would hate to see you go over the price of a happy meal each day.

tech-airman

/usr,

Sounds like you might need to start fighting "words" with "paper." Start treating every meeting with management like a "contract negotiation." Take in a notepad with you during the meeting to note down various terms. If they get vague like "several reviews" or "half now and half in December" try to pin down specific dates and specific terms by asking them clarifying questions. Try to verbally maneuver them around to benefit you. Then after said meeting, send them a letter stating "As we discussed on [date], here are the terms that I understood from you to me.

. I accept your offer, making this a binding contract." Now, if you receive some sort of rebuttal letter back claiming that "this, this, and these terms are incorrect, but here are the terms...." you have to decide to either accept or reject the amended terms. If you don't like the amended terms, just remind them that they are bound by the contractual terms of the previous letter. However, if the amended terms are acceptable, then by replying to accept the new terms, now you have a paper with paper trail. From my experience, it is a truth when they say "talk is cheap." I hope this helps.

Technowiz

sprkymrk wrote:

Only $10-12 a week?

I would take that as a slap in the face. Geez, that's like what, 25 cents an hour? Big whoop. Why don't they just offer you a McDonald's cheeseburger and fries for lunch every day, because that's about what it amounts to.

I would find another job fast - construction or otherwise. These bozos you work for now will never change. When you turn in your 2 weeks notice, ask your manager if you should be satisfied with a 25 cent an hour increase when you had a verbal agreement with HR of much higher expectations. Tell him the money is only part of your concern, and that working for a company that lacks integrity and loyalty is your bigger issue.

Good luck.

I agree 100%. I would be looking for the exit at that place. Even if the agreement was only a verbal if they are burning you on it that is a bad sign. Even if you went to them and they made things right how would you know you could trust them down the road? Sprkymrk is right about the integrity issue.

/usr

Are you really committed to this company if you did get the pay rise you think are due?

That's the big question really. Would you stay?

I would have. I took pride in the work I did there. I was excited about the possibility of my programs being distributed throughout the organization.

I think that's what's bothering me so much with this...

I don't feel valued there. Honestly, I know I won't do my best work with these feelings of contempt. I suppose I'm going to stay until around mid August, then hit the road...

Turgon

So are you going to go higher up to see if this can be all straightened out? You never know, you may get the deal you want. If you have an important role to play there I doubt the President would want to see you leave over such a small raise.

Does he know about your intentions/grievance? There's not much he can do to help once you are out the door if he has no idea what's going on.

mrkorean

It just makes me mad when I read stories like this where loyal and hardworking staff are screwed by their employers.

If I were in your shoes, I would leave the company. I worked my ass off for my previous company for over 5 years, they didnt give me a pay rise for the last three years! They said they were paying me market rate, so I decided to leave. 2 months later I got a new job as an entry level network engineer and doubled my salary. I only got a CCNA, working towards my CCVP and I havent looked back since.

You got nothing to be afraid of. You got an escape route so job hunt more intensively before resigning. Put your CV on every reputable job portal. Good luck.

/usr

Well, I asked about the overtime (just work another 8 hours on Saturday), but they said no. That pretty much sets my decision in stone, but I'm not sure how to go about it.

The more I think about it, the more I really don't want to leave IT for a year or more, have trouble getting back in, I don't want to be away from home, etc.

There just aren't many IT jobs available around here. My best bet would be Charleston, WV, which is around an hour commute each way. I wouldn't be opposed to that, necessarily. I drive 30 minutes each way now to work, an hour to class once a week, and I drove 45-50 minutes each way for 3 years. Driving has never really bothered me too much.

I just don't know how long it will take to find a job that's going to pay better than the one I currently have.

In the meantime, I'm going to need to look for some type of extra income. I considered PC repair, you know, just doing what I do here for myself, but I think it would take some time to get anything worthwhile going.

ilcram19

It just makes me mad when I read stories like this where loyal and hardworking staff are screwed by their employers.

If I were in your shoes, I would leave the company. I worked my ass off for my previous company for over 5 years, they didnt give me a pay rise for the last three years! They said they were paying me market rate, so I decided to leave. 2 months later I got a new job as an entry level network engineer and doubled my salary. I only got a CCNA, working towards my CCVP and I havent looked back since.

You got nothing to be afraid of. You got an escape route so job hunt more intensively before resigning. Put your CV on every reputable job portal. Good luck.

yea man dont give up...i wouldn't do anything else than wut i do u go to keep da attitud going
plus u seem like an xperiance guy im sure u wont have a problem finding a good job...like one of the member says (royal) For success, attitude is equally as important as ability..u got it man dont leave IT

/usr

Rather than starting a new post, I figured I would post this here.

I recently applied for a part-time gig online (I check multiple times daily for anything related to IT), not really thinking I would get a call or it would be anything I was interested in.

Basically, it's just independent contracting work. The calls go to a company, the company gives them your phone number and contact information, then it's up to you to setup a time. I spoke to them yesterday, and apparently they get a reasonable amount of calls in my county, as well as neighboring counties. It's a flat rate, but I would only be doing hardware troubleshoot on laptops and desktops, they said there is very little software troubleshooting involved. Calls average around 45 minutes. If I'm only replacing hardware, I can't imagine many calls taking much longer than that. As far as I know, there is no actual onsite repair of hardware.

I could do this in the evenings, as well as Saturday and Sunday. I really think this would serve me well, while I continue working my current job, until I find a full time gig that's going to compensate me better.

I'm confident in my ability to troubleshoot PC's. I've done it for 4+ years here, and even longer than that on my own.

Has anyone ever had any sort of experience working for companies like this?

The only thing that concerns me at all, is that you're basically going into business for yourself. You're required to get a business license and pay taxes on what you sell (no big deal, I'm aware of how the whole process works from helping a friend with theirs), and carry general liability business insurance (but not until you receive your first paycheck from them). I don't really mind either, because honestly, I've been strongly considering the possibility of doing independent work on my own. I figure that taking this step will get me that much closer if I try to do anything on my own. Even if the part time job doesn't work out and I stop making money, I can drop the insurance and won't be required to pay any taxes.

Honestly, I really don't want to leave IT to take another job.

I just hoped to get some opinions from you guys!

dtlokee

I would ask them for references of people they already send work to and see what type of volume you could expect. My concern is that if the have a great volume of work it would be more cost effective to carry their own employees, but in this case they are looking for contractors. If they do carry some full time employees they will obviously get the lion's share of the work (of course all the local calls and you'd get the ones that are far away) and you could end up just barely covering your expenses with a few calls a month doing their overflow work.

My advice would be to research it further from a perspective of what type of company it is and their reputation with their customers.

/usr

I assume that the flat rate they're paying the contractors, isn't nearly what they're charging the customer. They're most likely making a killing. I'm not 100% sure, but I think they only do contract work. I may be wrong and they may have full time employees, though.

Even if I don't get the volume I'm hoping for, I'm really not out anything and can basically quit when I want to, since I would be an independent contractor. From what I can tell, it would take a month to a month and a half to get the first check (they pay monthly). Since I would be able to hold out on the insurance until then, the only thing I'm really out if it doesn't work out, is the business license fee (around $40), which I could also put to further use on my own.

Would it be legal to contact their customers and ask about their reputation, since I had to sign an NDA to even get answers to questions regarding their business?

dtlokee

I wouldn't try to contact their customers (with or without a NDA) but you can research them on the web, the better business bureau, and so on see if you can find out more information. Last thing you want to do is invest time and money for insurance, a business license, and other expenses to find out they don't have anything for you.

I own a business. I am presented with oppertunities all the time and I have a very skeptical approach to them all so my view may be a little tainted. Last week I had a guy who wanted to meet with me about training oppertunities. Normally I would say no but he had a good pitch. I brought him in and it turns out he's a contract traininer trying to develop his own courses (and customer base) and is looking for people to fill classes for him to teach, then he would pay a minimal fee for renting him a classroom(even though I did all the advertising and sales). not a good deal, but he sat across the desk from me like I'm an idiot for not jumping on the idea because he's got the next best thing in training.


If you feel comfortable with the situation then I'd say go for it, but do your reaserch first. You don't want to find out that every service call you have is a disgruntled customer that's spent 10 hours on the phone with tech support begging them to fix their computer before they actually sent out a tech.

sprkymrk

This is a fairly typical and straight forward setup. It's similar to the franchise idea. The big corporate entity pays advertising and marketing. They get calls from across the country for support. It could be a residential customer who simply bought a computer from an outlet and the support agreement is handled by a clearing house or it might be a local business that does not have an IT staff but has the typical office equipment that needs occasional work. It's not a single company that hires IT contractors - it's a company that handles support for thousands of customers in various locations. Generic support more than personal support really. If you have Dell or IBM or HP certs they use you to replace bad drives and such that are still covered by warranty.

Either way I have heard it can be good or bad. Good if you just want some extra cash on the side for a while, bad if you try to make a living at it in a slow area. Also you might be expected to travel in a certain radius and if you turn down too many calls they drop you.

/usr

Nah, I'm keeping my full time job until I find another, better, full time IT job. I really don't know how long that will take, so right now I'm just looking to make an extra bit of money each week. If I could average 10 calls a week, that would be perfectly acceptable to me. To be honest, I'm not looking for much more than that, but will take it if it comes.

Also, I forgot to mention...they told me they will pay for all their contractors to get their Dell certifications. Not something I'm terribly interested in...but I certainly won't turn it down if it's free. It can only help me in the future.

When you are first setting things up, they work with you to define a coverage area (generally your residing county). Anything outside that area, you get paid mileage for. I don't mind driving and I have a reliable vehicle, so that's really not a problem.