Scared of being topped out too young...

Schluep

nel wrote:

You're generalising a generation (i.e. fro those articles) which were probably wrote by men who are alot older and have a dislike towards them (most probably because we all own ipods and didnt grow up playing pong!).

The articles did not generalize. It was very clearly stated:

[quote=The Millennials Are Coming, http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/11/08/60minutes/main3475200.shtml]
"Some of them are the greatest generation. They're more hardworking. They have these tools to get things done," she explains. "They are enormously clever and resourceful. Some of the others are absolutely incorrigible. It's their way or the highway. The rest of us are old, redundant, should be retired. How dare we come in, anyone over 30. Not only can't be trusted, can't be counted upon to be, sort of, coherent."[/quote]

It was very clearly stated that no all 2X year old workers are difficult to get along with, and in fact stated very positive things about them. The articles were merely highlighting what many are noticing as a trend. The CNN article compared them to the Baby Boomers growing up as well.

There is a fine line between generalizing and discussing an issue. Obviously there are good, bad, average, excellent, and terrible workers from all age groups, ethnic backgrounds, geographic locations, genders, and religions. What started off as a post asking for advise for someone not sure what to do as turned into an all out battle of the generations with very pointed and personal attack in responses to "generalizations", some of which were and some of which weren't. Many of the posts attacking people for "generalizing" including "generalizations" about the opposite age group in their inflammatory responses.

To get back to the OP: You have your whole life ahead of you. The decisons you make now will certainly have an impact on where it leads. None of us are in a position to truly give you the best advise since we aren't in your situation and can't see nearly as many angles of that decision as you can. Decide where you want to go from here and determine if you are willing to make the sacrifices necessary to get there. Regardless of what you choose there will be sacrifices as you can never have everything. What are you willing to give up and what must you have? These aren't questions to answer here, but to ask yourself as a part of this process.

JDMurray

Schluep wrote:

[quote=The Millennials Are Coming, http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/11/08/60minutes/main3475200.shtml]
"Some of them are the greatest generation. They're more hardworking. They have these tools to get things done," she explains. "They are enormously clever and resourceful. Some of the others are absolutely incorrigible. It's their way or the highway. The rest of us are old, redundant, should be retired. How dare we come in, anyone over 30. Not only can't be trusted, can't be counted upon to be, sort of, coherent."

[/quote]
Hah! This has ALWAYS been the sentiment in the computer gaming industry. Old fossils like me struggle to prove our knowledge and relevance despite our advanced age of 30+. Welcome to my world.

dtlokee

JDMurray wrote:

Schluep wrote:

[quote=The Millennials Are Coming, http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/11/08/60minutes/main3475200.shtml]
"Some of them are the greatest generation. They're more hardworking. They have these tools to get things done," she explains. "They are enormously clever and resourceful. Some of the others are absolutely incorrigible. It's their way or the highway. The rest of us are old, redundant, should be retired. How dare we come in, anyone over 30. Not only can't be trusted, can't be counted upon to be, sort of, coherent."

Hah! This has ALWAYS been the sentiment in the computer gaming industry. Old fossils like me struggle to prove our knowledge and relevance despite our advanced age of 30+. Welcome to my world. [/quote]

Stop reminiscing about how it was back in your day programming on your TRS-80 and how you had to write your own compiler

TechJunky

Most companies don't like being in a position where they have thin coverage in an area of their operations, they may just be trying to "protect" themselves in case you were to leave. I have heard the argument you're making many times. I have had many employees tell me they should be paid more because someone quit and now they're filling both roles. I will replace the person who quit, then what? take a pay cut? In my experience 1 person can not do the job of 2 people, no matter how hard they try.

How are they protecting themselves incase I leave if they have 0 coverage in what I do? I am doing the job of 1 other person for sure, and half of the role of the front desk person we had to fire. It may not seem possible to some, but I can garantee that is what is going on here. I have improved operations by an impressive 30% in a 6 months.

If you look at it from an employer's perspective, you've given them a demand to give you a raise "to stay onboard". This would tell me you're unhappy with the work conditions and are only here for the money. In 6 months, I will have to give you more money to keep you happy or you will threaten to leave again. This will continue to occur. If I were put in this position, I would be looking to hire someone to back you up also.

Exactly, she should hire someone else. Right now if she obtained these big contracts that are being decided and I left tomorrow she would be SOL.

You also stated that the job is stressful and you don't like the politics. Will more money make the job less stressful somehow? Or only mask the problem for a couple months when the money isn't worth it anymore?

The internal politcs aren't that bad compared to other companies. The politic's from corporate are a different story. The problem isn't that money would be masking the problem, the fact is that I am underpaid in my profession and my boss/owner agreed on a change in 6 months, 6 months ago. I keep getting offers from fellow IT businesses that I have worked for at one time and they are paying atleast 20k more than I am making right now. IMO, thats a pretty big difference for a "starting" salary at these other companies. Meaning, I would be starting out 20k more and over time obtain raises according to my reviews. So, for working for this company for 2 years not getting paid what other companies are willing to "start" me at irritates me.

Someone somewhere can do it. Maybe not in your company but there is someone somewhere they can hire.

Agreed, but the person they would have to hire would cost them about 20k more than I am making. 20k is nothing to a company considering she doesnt have to hire another tech, even the most lowly technician makes around 32k a year. The technician I replaced was making 40k a year, so its not like she doesnt have it in her budget if she was originally paying this other technician 40k. So lets say I quite. She now has to hire 2 people to fill all the duties that I was doing. Lets say she hires some base technicians at 32k a year, thats now 64k a year... This is for just a base starting technician, guess what? Those technicians are going to want raises etc too.. She now may be looking at a 70k over a 1 year period to just fill the technical aspects of my job duties... Doesn't sound like a very good business decision to me.

On the issue of age, I have had really good and really bad employees at all age levels, you cannot make the generalizations that have been made here. I am 31 and the owner of a company, I would say I've had more issues with people older than me. One of the worst employees I have ever had was a secretary (older) who thought she was my mother and tried to manage the company via proxy. She attempted to run the company often using statements inferring this was something I wanted. This resulted in 2 people leaving the company. (well 3 when I fired her)

Sounds like the same issue we had. We had to fire her as well. She also was giving away free supplies,shipping and service that costed the company over 60k in a 6 month period. She has was doing this for over 3 years time, but we could only check back to the last 6 months due to a new script that I wrote to track things she was doing. So imagine how much she costed the company over all...

Agreed, age does not have anything to do with a person's productivity.

TechJunky

Again I appreciate all the feedback.

I want to be as realistic as possible.

IMO, you are only worth what you are being offered, so since I have been offered atleast 20k above my current salary I know I am doing something right. Again, I really enjoy my boss and dont want to put her in a bad place. However, I have to look out for myself too. I have always learned that putting others above yourself when it comes to your livelyhood 9 times out of 10 always comes back to bite you in the ass.

Also, we went from 4 technicians in our department down to 2 and are more productive now because of the new implementations of how her business is being ran, plus she is saving money on 2 other technicians that she originally had.

I would say her TCO is pretty damn low.

JDMurray

dtlokee wrote:

Stop reminiscing about how it was back in your day programming on your TRS-80 and how you had to write your own compiler

I actually had a TRS-80. I bought it in 1984 at a garage sale for $150. The machine was so bland that I wasn't inspired to do much with it. I would have been much better off had I bought a Commodore 64, or even a VIC-20.

garv221

TechJunky wrote:

Anyone else having this problem?

I never had to work a blockbuster job, or something of the like before. I went straight from high school into a enterprise computer department. I have pretty much been in it ever since. I have moved up the ranks from intern to System Admin/Manager. I now get asked when I apply for other jobs in my current state, "why are you applying here, it looks like your credentials/experience is way above what your applying for. It seems that all the very top jobs are already taken and or company's dont want to hire for that position anymore.

WOW- I feel the exact same way, minus problems applying for jobs. Just apply for higher level jobs (IT manager, director) they are out there or when it is mentioned you are over qualified just say "this is what I want to do regardless, win win situation for both of us."

TechJunky wrote:

I am only 24 and feel trapped in a bad way. I am working on part ownership currently, but I just feel like I have been working so hard too quickly and didn't get to experience life. It's not money either. We have the money for me to quit today and I could go back to school full time and decide what I want to do, but I love my boss/owner/company and I don't want to put her in a bad spot since we have a ton of upcoming database upgrades and I am really the only person on staff with the application scripting capability.

I always thought it would be so cool to be young and at the top, now that I am there I feel like I wish I would have worked a blockbuster job or the alike to just chill out. I am under a ton of stress all the time with deadlines etc to meet, managing staff, projects etc.

I turned 26 this past summer and have felt the same way since spring. I graduated college in 02'bounced around and landed two jobs as network tech and then sys admin. I then got a job as a sys admin with my current company and went to network engineer and now IT director. I've worked long and hard hours trying to get to the top, chucked some cash and now think working a 9-5 on someone else's schedule is a wasted life. The good side is we both understand this before a mid life crisis later on.

I have two options and I weigh them heavily.

Option #1- Start my own business (which has a great written plan, attorney and proforma) and just make money on my schedule, something I can live with and be happy but will require a lot of start up work and isn't guaranteed to satisfy me.

Option #2- Say F%#*k it and sell everything I owe money on ie home, vehicle and work like you mentioned just feeding low risk, long term investments and figure it out on the way. This way I am not controlled by the things I own and don't need to work like I do.

TechJunky wrote:

I would also agree with the latest info on the younger generation not willing to work for their money. Especially my generation. It is hard to come by hard working individuals under 28 that you can count on.

Yes, some are just lazy and some understand money isn't everything. The goal is to make a good living doing something you enjoy. Do you, not them.

TechJunky

Well, It defiantly sounds like we are in the same spot. I dont mind doing all my current job duties if I was paid more. I too have debated on starting my own business, but upfront cash is always something that stops me. I would need a store front, then gain clientel, etc. The first 5-10 years of the business's life I wouldn't have a life. I have seen my father go through this with his business. Plus its really hard to get a 401k for yourself, employees etc when you start out.

Ideally I would just like to become the IT Director/Store Manager and go from there.

silentc1015

TechJunky wrote:

Well, It defiantly sounds like we are in the same spot. I dont mind doing all my current job duties if I was paid more. I too have debated on starting my own business, but upfront cash is always something that stops me. I would need a store front, then gain clientel, etc. The first 5-10 years of the business's life I wouldn't have a life. I have seen my father go through this with his business. Plus its really hard to get a 401k for yourself, employees etc when you start out.

Ideally I would just like to become the IT Director/Store Manager and go from there.

If you're being underpaid, by all means leave. A 1 month notice is more than adequate. We are not, after all, charity workers.

Ahriakin

Staying away from the generation finger pointing.
To the OP, I know how you feel. I left college and started on the phones with what was at the time the world's 3rd largest PC seller. Within 2 years I was in the Top position in tech support for the entire Europe, Middle East, Africa and Asian markets. Yay...ego..pride...stress that had me revising 5 year old BIOS update steps for motherboards we didn't sell anymore during breakfast without even realising I was doing it. Every spare though was about work. I left and took a simple desktop support job for an oil company that had me working a month on and one off in Africa - after a year I started moving up the IT food chain again after deliberately keeping a low profile, guess it's in our nature. Anyway I used that time to travel, party hard on my time off and eventually met the woman I married (which is how I ended up in the states...). Work to live, don't live to work, whatever you decide to do and how hard you work for what you want as part of that process is up to you but always remember it should only ever be to ultimately make your life (and those you care about) better.

Poison Reverse

what a wonderful problem to have lol

Nik00117

I'm 18 so I'm a part of this generation and I see this attitude with a lot of fellow class mates.

Now I know a classmate of mine who wants a computer paying job straight up, and he wants it now. He has no work experience at all. He doesn't' have the experience of punch card, watching your pay, dealing with supervisors, working out issue with management. Hes clueless

me on the other hand i've done everything from field work, mowing yards, walking dogs, cleaning cars, to flipping burgers, making pizzas, working at subway to what I do now which is working at a cash cage where I deal with cash all day long.

Gotta tell you when I got an issue or concern I know how to talk to management. I know how to do all the things which so many kids nowadays lack. And I think as I prepare to go into IT that I will look that much better.

Plantwiz

I've not met anyone who hasn't felt 'picked' on in one form of another particularly with age. Either too young, or too old.

Main thing, to not feel this way is to understand how the people you are selling yourself to feel about people your age.

Young people should understand that us old farts DO know stuff and we've not only been in their situation (of being young), but also survived it as well as a ton of other stuff.

Old farts should understand that the young people can bring lost energy into a project. These 'kids' can be all wound-up and just need to be pointed in the right direction to get things done.


Where there is break-down or lack of understanding for myself, is that I worked several jobs before college, during college, after college.....right up until I was married and then had a child...now I"m a parent and I work as a consultant. I never expected huge pay once I graduated from college...I expected I'd make something reasonable for a job I'd accept and then move up with promotion, changing companies, gain new credentials making my skill-set more desirable and more unique.

I see/hear and work with young people who have a larger home then I have. A more expensive car. Better clothing. Eat expensive foods. Have all the newest, coolest gadgets. And...good for them. However, to have that lifestyle it takes money and it's not appropriate to demand employers to pay them to maintain that lifestyle (unless they of course can bring more to the business then what they cost the business). Fresh from college....doesn't equal BIG PAY. It does provide a key to a great opportunity, but it's not my fault you have college debt. Shame on you. I attended a private college that I worked and paid for. When I graduated I didn't owe a penny for my education. I was free to select a good fighting job for my interests and skills.

So on top of seeing/hearing college grads leaving school expecting to run the company (which they could if they went into business for themselves) when they don't (the ones I've run into) they whine or work in an unprodutive capactiy sulking because 'the company owes them'.

Likewise, with many displaced workers in our community, we have some 56+ yr olds p1$$ed that they missed that golden corporation umbrella of lifelong job and pension and are now finding themselves looking for any job...also not thrilled to work at starting a new relationship.

Takes some understand from all sides. It also takes work to climb the ladder, pyramid, tower of life. Remember it took our parents 35 years to build the house and life that new grads think they need the day they graduate. Sure, some just get lucky, but I'll bet if you look at those who you call 'successful' they will have laid out a great foundation and worked tirelessly to reach the point where you see them today that looks easy.

FWIW

Khaddar

I just wanted to add a little to this discussion.

I finished my first year of college in high school. At 19 I finished my associates. I had been a full time C coder from the age of 18 on. Worked at a computer company from age 16. I worked CONSTANTLY. Older folk I met told my parents how lucky they were to have a son who works as hard as I do. I didn't have a life. I didn't need a life. People made fun of me in high school because I was "weird". (A goth chick told me I was weird, yeah, I was that peculiar) But I didn't need people, I had software to code. I was going to be successful and everyone would feel bad that they treated me like crap...

Well, at the age of 19, my job went to India. Their were NO jobs anywhere as a coder that I could find with sooooo many other programmers out of work.

Suddenly, I had no job. I was angry and confused. This is America I thought, working hard, training and becoming successful, it all just went together. I gave up my teenage years for my job. No girls, no friends, just co-workers...people applauded me for what I did.

My job WAS who I was. Take it away, and their was nothing. Just the insecure 12 year old that withdrew to his computer. I didn't have to learn, to change, to evolve. This is a societal problem I feel but that is just an opinion.

Anyway, the next several years were a combination of figuring out what was wrong. What was my fault, the world's fault, societies fault? (People always love to oversimplify life)

Well, I'm back in the biz as of a few months ago. If you read my other post I was given 2 days to study and take the 70-271 and my job depended on passing.

Life is strange.

If you lost your job, your home, your stuff tomorrow, who are you? What would you do if the skills you had became suddenly worthless. I'm not interested in money or success so much anymore. On my deathbed NO ONE HERE WILL EVER SAY I WISH I WASN"T ABOUT TO DO SO I COULD WORK MORE.

Your question is not one of career, or decisions, it is a spiritual one. Your answer will not be found in the masses that flood to churches to sit in rows and obey. Yours will be found in isolation, you need time to think/meditate/chill/whatever. If we get so caught up in life we forget we are human, what does all the success in the world benefit us.

I just hammered this out real quick so sorry for the crudity.

Poison Reverse

Khaddar wrote:

I just wanted to add a little to this discussion.

I finished my first year of college in high school. At 19 I finished my associates. I had been a full time C coder from the age of 18 on. Worked at a computer company from age 16. I worked CONSTANTLY. Older folk I met told my parents how lucky they were to have a son who works as hard as I do. I didn't have a life. I didn't need a life. People made fun of me in high school because I was "weird". (A goth chick told me I was weird, yeah, I was that peculiar) But I didn't need people, I had software to code. I was going to be successful and everyone would feel bad that they treated me like crap...

Well, at the age of 19, my job went to India. Their were NO jobs anywhere as a coder that I could find with sooooo many other programmers out of work.

Suddenly, I had no job. I was angry and confused. This is America I thought, working hard, training and becoming successful, it all just went together. I gave up my teenage years for my job. No girls, no friends, just co-workers...people applauded me for what I did.

My job WAS who I was. Take it away, and their was nothing. Just the insecure 12 year old that withdrew to his computer. I didn't have to learn, to change, to evolve. This is a societal problem I feel but that is just an opinion.

Anyway, the next several years were a combination of figuring out what was wrong. What was my fault, the world's fault, societies fault? (People always love to oversimplify life)

Well, I'm back in the biz as of a few months ago. If you read my other post I was given 2 days to study and take the 70-271 and my job depended on passing.

Life is strange.

If you lost your job, your home, your stuff tomorrow, who are you? What would you do if the skills you had became suddenly worthless. I'm not interested in money or success so much anymore. On my deathbed NO ONE HERE WILL EVER SAY I WISH I WASN"T ABOUT TO DO SO I COULD WORK MORE.

Your question is not one of career, or decisions, it is a spiritual one. Your answer will not be found in the masses that flood to churches to sit in rows and obey. Yours will be found in isolation, you need time to think/meditate/chill/whatever. If we get so caught up in life we forget we are human, what does all the success in the world benefit us.

I just hammered this out real quick so sorry for the crudity.

Netstudent

Nice story man. good luck!