Career Advice needed

Jerrod

Hello everyone,

I am in need of serious advice. My main dream is to be a security researcher at a firm, or a security professional. I have just graduated and now I am in 40,000$ worth of debt. Maybe it is a bad time to look for a job (everyone tells me the new college grad has trouble during this time), but I have had to take a $9/hr customer service job at a large I.T. outsourcing firm as a phone operator. I have been told that if I get 2 or 3 certifications in the next 3 to 6 months, they will give me a chance at an entry level network position. I must maximize my chances of getting this position, because they have tuition assitance and I need to start on my masters. I am getting old too (27) and I need to start a career. I want to get at a minimum of 5 years of networking experience while pursing my Masters in Computer Science.

Education:
B.S. in Mathematics, minors: Computer Science, Russian

If you had $1,000 dollars, what certifications would you get?

I have the following equipment:
1 IBM Workstation RH Linux
2 Windows 2000 Laptops

Cisco:
1 Cisco Catalyst 2950 Switch
1 Cisco 1700 Router
Network Simulator
ICND 1 and 2 Books

So my plan is to first get the CCENT and CCNA (300$). That leaves me $700. Where should I go next? I don't want to start the CCNP because I have no work experience. I have a ton of Linux/UNIX experience and am thinking about the Linux+ cert ($232 + materials ~$300).

Again, thanks for any advice. In case you are wondering, "why math?", well I wanted to work with cryptography. To do this job though, you need a masters and I don't have a masters of math in me.

Thank you for your time,
Jerrod

dynamik

It would probably help if you detailed your previous experience a bit more. The CCNA can be a difficult one to begin with. You might want to start off with a few CompTIA exams, such as the A+, Network+, Security+, and/or Linux+. Did they give you any idea what certifications they are looking for? What type of job responsibilities would you have with the new position?

sthomas

I think if you do the CCENT and CCNA it will cost $250 unless you are counting study materials. If it were me I would just get CCNA and skip the CCENT, that will cost $150. And then depending on what technology is being used at your job decide what cert you want next. MCSA and then MCSE would be good to get next in my opinion. If you want to get a couple of CompTIA certs like dynamik mentioned that would be good also.

Smallguy

I'd suggest getting your A+, network + and maybe an MCP pr MCDST exam

or possibly Linux + if that what your users are running

but A+ and network + will lay a solid foundation for you

I do;nt thin security+ is necessary6 right away


but like Dynamik said why not ask your boss if there are any he or she is particularly interested in you getting

BigTone

plus if you plan on staying in that company they might front the cost for the exams. or at least reimburse you.

Jerrod

(I tried posting this earlier)

Hi dynamik,

Yes I should have detailed out my experience and course work.

Experience (personal and school):
I have built multiple experimentation labs using *BSD, Windows, and Linux OSs.
My newest lab is listed above.

I have done all the basics with that listed above, and more advanced stuff with Linux and BSD.

I have taken two UNIX courses, and have used only FreeBSD, RH Linux, and Solaris in my programming classes.

Experience (real):
I worked at a help desk (walk-in) for two years taking care of basic Windows XP software and applications. (This made me think the MCP may be a good idea).

I was promoted to manager of two student computing labs. I continued to do some help desk work. I also served on the "TechTeam" where we maintained, and assembled new labs.

That is about it on experience.

There are multiple jobs available (entry level). I am not allowed to look at the internal jobs yet, but on the outside, they all list CCNA +3 to 5 years experience. Other than that, I think most of the jobs are setting up and remotely admin'ing.

My goal is to obtain a job where I can learn a great deal and progress as well. I have found experience is worth more than just theory (which is all I have ).

Certs:
I am not finding the CCENT to be challenging. I want to continue on to the CCNA.
I would go for the Net+ but I don't see the point of spending that amount of money when I could use it to get two exams of the CCNP out of the way. I guess I see it, after reading the CCENT/CCNA forum, as knowledge a CCNA should have already.
I thought about the CCDA, but most recommend knowing some material off the CCNP.

I think A+ may be an option, as my hardware experience is serious lacking. Maybe Security+, Server+, and Linux+ would be good options as well. But I do have money constraints.

If you or anyone else has advice I would love to hear it. Sometimes fresh perspectives can help you see the light.

Thanks.

dynamik

I suggest the Network+ as an entry-level networking cert for someone with little or no networking experience. If you're not having any problems with the CCENT, you would be better off focusing on something else, especially since you have time and budget constraints. I personally don't think it adds any significant value to a CCNA, but some people disagree (it does give you a bit broader perspective by including things such as Appletalk).

Given your experience, I think that A+ and Linux+ would compliment that nicely. If you have time, you might want to consider going for an MCDST as well. That would give you a well-rounded foundation for you to apply towards higher-level MS or Cisco certifications.

I think you're going to have a hard time fitting a CCNP into your budget. You're likely going to require equipment and/or rack rentals to really get a feel for the material. You know your situation best though. If you think you're going to be working exclusively with Cisco, maybe that would be the best route to go. Also, see if your employer will help you out with any training materials or exam costs. Even if you can just talking them into reimbursing you for a passed exam, that helps.

BeaverC32

CCNA (both exams) = ~$300
LPIC-1 (Exams 101 and 102) $200. Download Vmware server and a couple of distros for free.
Use the remaining cash for certs to get you MCSA. Use Vmware/VirtualPC and the trial editions of Server 2003

With these certs, you have credentials in network equipment (Cisco), and administering Microsoft/*Nix environments. With these credentials, you will look much more attractive to your employer

Jerrod

OK thanks for the replies.

I am doing the CCENT as the first part of the CCNA. The way I figure it, the CCNA has to much material for me to possibly absorb and actually learn the material (I could easily pass it by memorizing and doing practice exams, but I want to really learn).

I do want to clarify that the $1,000 is all I can spend right now (or until I get a better paying job). Those Comptia certifications are so expensive that I do have a hard time justifying paying for them. One could pay for the four CCNP exams at the cost of the Net+ and Sever+. I know there are other factors, but that is a valid point.

The university I will attend for my Masters, has a large Cisco lab, and I do want to obtain my CCNP before I begin work there. When I said I didn't want to do the CCNP before, I meant before real experience. Money constraints aside, wouldn't it be hard to take someone serious with a CCNA, CCNP and no experience? Assuming it was not part of some I.T. program track.

Dynamik I like your overall strategy. I really like the MCDST idea as well. All of those that you recommended would certify my skills and complement my real world experience.

I messed up by not getting a B.S. in Comp. Sci. and I really don't want to set myself back any more. I will take all advice given here and continue to do more research.

Thank you.

Daniel333

Jerrod,


You are right about the CCNA being PACKED with stuff, and you can't memorize your way through, the labs would destroy someone if they have never done them before.



A CCNA or CCDA without experience is pretty normal. As are all the "+" tests from Comptia. But someone with a CCNP and no expereience would be looked at awefully funny by an employer. Any other certs you have might become paper only certs in their mind. I won't go as far as to say it would hurt, but it might not help as much as you think.

A+, Security+, Linux+, CCNA and MCSA are all great certs that are worth your time/money. Considering 3-6 months each self studying and running labs (depending your background) you don't have to worry about your budget so much.

I've found that most libraries have great books CCNA and MCSA/MCSE (most of the A+ books are badly out of date) if your local libraries don't have the books you are looking for check to see if they subscribe to Link+, which you can snag books from all over the USA through at no charge.

Wiley/4Dummies gives away their Microsoft 70-270 exam book right from their site as a PDF. That would be free and the exam applies to the MCSA and MCSE.

What was your BS in?

BigTone

Jerrod wrote:

I messed up by not getting a B.S. in Comp. Sci. and I really don't want to set myself back any more. I will take all advice given here and continue to do more research.

Thank you.

I'm doing fine with my sociology degree in IT... Seriously once you get in somewhere thats all you need.

dynamik

BigTone wrote:

I'm doing fine with my sociology degree in IT... Seriously once you get in somewhere thats all you need.

Psychology here. I once met a guy who held a very prominent position in an IT company, and he majored in theology before he went on to his MBA.

BigTone

Its about what you know, not necessarily how you go about knowing it.

I would never have learned about routes or server stuff even if I did get a CS degree from U of I... If I did make it through that beast of a program though I probably wouldn't be doing network stuff I would most likely have been in a cubicle programming 8 hours a day.

sir_creamy_

Jerrod wrote:

I messed up by not getting a B.S. in Comp. Sci. and I really don't want to set myself back any more.

A B.Math is certainly nothing to sneeze at my friend...

sir_creamy_

BigTone wrote:

Its about what you know, not necessarily how you go about knowing it

True.

BigTone wrote:

I would never have learned about routes or server stuff even if I did get a CS degree from U of I... If I did make it through that beast of a program though I probably wouldn't be doing network stuff I would most likely have been in a cubicle programming 8 hours a day.

Not entirely sure what this means. U of I would have given you strong foundational knowledge of networking theory which could definitely help you land a networking gig. Routes? Are you referring to routing? Any university-level networking course will provide you with an understanding of routing protocols and graph algorithms. Also, CS != programming, nor does obtaining a degree in CS mean you have to spend your days pounding out code.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_science

Jerrod

Thanks all for replying.

Last night I went through this entire subforum and it has made me a bit depressed. There are tons of "I can't get a job" postings (sure some where people with no education or certs), but realistically, it is hard to find a networking job.

I have a degree, and I have been getting job offers to start in offices, as a helper in accounting, and what not, for $12-$15, but I took the $9 in hopes to progress in computing faster.

I think I am about to put my CCENT book on the shelf and pull out the GRE book. I think a masters in Computer Science or Decision Information Systems is in order.
Entry level management jobs are much easier to come by.

Again, thanks for the advice.

dynamik

There's no need to get depressed. The most difficult part is getting your foot in the door, which you seem to have done. You should have also come to the realization that nearly every knowledgeable person here has had to start at the bottom and work their way up. You don't just earn an A+ and CCNA and are given control of a network. I believe that if you gain a couple of solid years of experience as well as obtain some certifications, you'll do fine. If you'd rather put those two years into a masters, go for it. Just don't give up on something you're interested in.

BigTone

sir creamy wrote:

Not entirely sure what this means. U of I would have given you strong foundational knowledge of networking theory which could definitely help you land a networking gig. Routes? Are you referring to routing? Any university-level networking course will provide you with an understanding of routing protocols and graph algorithms. Also, CS != programming, nor does obtaining a degree in CS mean you have to spend your days pounding out code.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_science

I don't want to look like two moneys throwing poop at each other but I really have to disagree.

http://www.cs.uiuc.edu/undergraduate/newbscoursework.php

Looking at U of I's coursework even with the CS track its all pretty much logic, code and algorithms, I don't see a whole lot of network theory, even with the "systems" specialization I don't think you'd get a real "Network engineer's" grasp of information. The CS majors that come out of there are smart as hell, and don't usually end up working in networking.

Jerrod

I originally began as a computer scientist. What shocked me the most, was the amount of mathematics needed. All of my professors were people with PhD's in mathematics. When I found out that cryptography was mainly done by Mathematicians, I switched.

The majority of a Computer Science undergrad degree involves programming and theory; that can't be disputed. Now, I have a high degree of respect for network administrators, but some elitists think that if you can code parts of the kernel of an operating system, you can install, compile, and configure any type of server. I disagree with that.

Now a Masters in C.S. is an entirely different beast. Most of the time a person will take only 4 core courses and the rest will be whatever he/she wants. I sent my profile to the director of graduate admissions a few days ago and he just responded that I would be a good fit for the program. So, now I have a plan to fall back on, and if I do not move up at this new company, I can move directly to my masters.

I feel a great deal better now about my future. I have learned that things usually work out for the best in life.

Again, thanks for the guidance.
Jerrod

sir_creamy_

BigTone wrote:

I don't want to look like two moneys throwing poop at each other but I really have to disagree.

http://www.cs.uiuc.edu/undergraduate/newbscoursework.php

Looking at U of I's coursework even with the CS track its all pretty much logic, code and algorithms, I don't see a whole lot of network theory, even with the "systems" specialization I don't think you'd get a real "Network engineer's" grasp of information. The CS majors that come out of there are smart as hell, and don't usually end up working in networking.

Without some kind of credible source you cannot claim that most graduates don't "end up" in networking because of the nature of a CS degree. You can, however, make the claim that people may not end up in networking because of the job market. Think about the present demand for software engineers. Perhaps that's why it may seem like all graduates flock for development jobs - because they're available.

The courses listed on the website pretty much sum up every CS degree in existence. The networking courses offered at U of I are the same at Waterloo and most other universities. If by "Network engineers grasp of information" you mean a CS degree offers little in the way of hands-on experience configuring routers/switches, troubleshooting networks, and installing
servers then you are very correct. That's why god created community college.

A CS degree lets you put your toe in the water. You're given the opportunity to be introduced to an array of different fields equally: theory of computation, algorithms and data structures, programming languages/compilers, system architecture, communications (including networking), AI, etc. The point of a CS degree is not to shape you into a programmer. The study of programming languages is merely one of the many branches of computer science as outlined on the link that I provided. I hope I've cleared some things up. Message me if you'd like to discuss it further.