Microsoft or Novell

matchey

We have currently a netware 5.1 nos in work but some of the guys would like to move to w2k, but the netware server is very reliable and stable and doesnt contantly need patched and updated !!

i find novell dont promote themselves enough or advertise but there products seem to be v good, i can only speak from experience here in the uk.

i would be very interested to hear anyone else's thoughts.

thankyou

RussS

Novell - to me wins hands down .... for a file and print server that is.
We have many clients on Novell and boy do I love the way it works - none of that MS reboot BS and heck you can throw it on damn near anything and it works.

matchey

thanks for that
what version of netware are you using?

why does novell not advertise or push themselves in this nos market?

Sartan

That's because novell is a pain in the ass to learn!

Novell advertises to corporations in East North America, but they're kind of hiding in the West.
Novell has a certificatation specifically to push Novell toward CIOs. Novell doesn't advertise through the normal means, but they do manage to sell their product directly and privately through presentations and seminars.

There are plenty of large companies that don't advertise to make buckets o' bucks, and it doesn't mean they're not successful.

matchey

netware is very easy to use !!

sure microsoft got the whole idea of active directory from novell's nds?

RussS

matchey - yes Netware is easy to use and most certainly MS stole many of their ideas from Novell. My favourite thing is the way printers work - man that is just sooo cool.
We have clients using 5 - 6 & 6.5. Some of those servers have up time that is only interrupted by long term power outages that UPS could not bridge.

Webmaster

matchey wrote:

sure microsoft got the whole idea of active directory from novell's nds?

Nah, not really. Novell was first though, but they didn't invent centralized management of resources nor did they invent LDAP style directories. MS ADS is actually very similar to the Exchange Server directory used in older version of Exchange server (pre-Exchange 2000).

I gave up on Novell years ago when they came with Netware IP in version 4.x ... I migrated several networks from Netware 3.12/3.2/4.1 to Windows NT 4, the only reason for migrating was the need for TCP/IP and better integration with Exchange Server 5.5. But I never met a Novell sys admin who wasn't happy with his Netware server

I know very little of the current versions of Netware, but as I mentioned in your other post, if it suits your companies needs and you got the people to manage it, I definitely wouldn't make the switch to MS Windows.

pandimus

RussS wrote:

is the way printers work - man that is just sooo cool.
.

So how do they work? Ive never seen novell in action.

matchey

RUSS your right the printing is awesome n printer and ndps, we are on netware 5.1 but hope to upgrade to 6.5.

Would be very interested on how you find 6.5?

pandimus novell is very good as webmaster has mentioned there are not too many system administrators who are not happy with their servers.
netware servers stay up for years rather than ms - months & weeks

cant understand why ms have 90 of the market (uk) but novell seem to have a better and more stable, secure product !!

comments welcome please.

2lazybutsmart

matchey: Well the "up-time" stated in 'years' would resemble something like a geological era in repect to networt servers right. I mean.. -c'mon- why not decades. I do hear people say things like that about Novell: but is that true?

I --or "We" would be a better word-- once used Netware 3 in our Network and the only thing that forced us to run away from it was the CLI based "everything". I know some people justify CLI's as the great tool for geeks, but it's just a pain in the azz (in my idea), isn't it?.

I hope they have some sort of GUI by now...

matchey

GUI YES MOST THINGS CAN BE DONE VIA NWADMIN WHICH IS EASY TO UNDERSTAND AND USE,

DECADES !! WE WILL HAVE TO WAIT AND SEE, SEVERAL OF OUR NETWARE SERVERS HAVE BEEN UP FOR YEARS, ONLY HAVE TO COME DOWN FOR ROUTINE MAINTENANCE OR TO BE MOVED, OTHER NETWARE PEOPLE AM SURE WILL VERIFY THIS.

BUT CANT YOU SEE MY DRIFT REGARDING A MORE STABLE AND SECURE NOS?

NO NEED FOR CONSTANT PATCHING ?

Webmaster

It is true, unless there are hardware problems, or the rare need for a reboot because of new software.

And even the older version I worked with (3.x and 4.x) provided admin tools for Windows. Only major changes required the CLI. Most admin tasks are performed on a.... here it comes: a Windows client.

BUT CANT YOU SEE MY DRIFT REGARDING A MORE STABLE AND SECURE NOS?

NO NEED FOR CONSTANT PATCHING ?

I don't want to be caught up in any Novell vs. MS discusson (for me Novell is something past-millenium) and you really have a solid point when it comes to the need for patches. And in general they are more stable. But IMO Windows server, especially including the BackOffice suit, has much more to offer than a Netware server. Netware is very suitable for file-and-print services, but I wouldn't recommend it for any other task than that. I don't think they are even comparable anymore. Although I started out in IT as a Novell 3.12 admin, and didn't care about Windows NT for several years, I installed at least 50 Compaq/Windows NT 4 servers, and 'adminned' hundreds of them worldwide. I guarantee you none of them could ever be considered 'unstable'. It takes some more effort, but it is certainly doable. Incompetance of system admins is the primary cause of unstable Windows servers. If you give them the same attention and love a Netware admin gives to his or her servers (as in drop the anti-MS feelings), they are perfectly fit for the job.

And as for comparing security of different OSs, the OS which has the most features, and is most widely used, suffers the most attacks. If all those hackers and crackers would focus on an other OS than Windows, they would find a hole every week... unless you're still running IPX/SPX

(matchey? Anything wrong with your capslock?)

matchey

apologies webmaster if i come across anti-ms but i am not, have a quick look at the link below, and let me know what u think?
http://www.novell.com/info/collateral/docs/4621266.05/4621266.ht

if u get a chance please visit the novell site, novell offers alot more than just file & print now, the new single sign on product seems excelent, was speaking to a ms consultant yesterday and he mentioned they had no single sign on product but recommended a 3rd party vendor.

also u must have a look ot zenworks for desktops, in any reviews i have seen it was rated more highly that sms

sorry bout the caps lock in previous msg

the main point i am trying to get at (and i am not anti ms we also have nt, 2k in work) is from my experence and reviews the novell products seem better but i just dont understand why novell dont push themselves and give ms a better run for their money. if you were the ceo in novell would you not b doing this?

by the amount of work you do am sure the last thing u want is another section but would it be worth piloting a netware section just to see what sort of responce u would get?

matchey

sorry try this link, missed last 2 letters in last msg


http://www.novell.com/info/collateral/docs/4621266.05/4621266.html

Webmaster

No need to apologize for anything. The 'drop the anti-MS feelings' was meant as advice for any Netware admin making the switch to Windows.

As I mentioned in the other post in the CCNA forum, my opinions about Netware are not up-to-date. I will definitely check out that page later, and will try to comment.

ms consultant yesterday and he mentioned they had no single sign on product but recommended a 3rd party vendor

Have that consultant take a look at Kerberos (default in Windows 2000) and the main purposes of ADS... In Windows 2003 it only gets better.

The reason a 3rd part vendor for SSO is often recommended is that those have wider support for applications (those that cannot interact with ADS for example). If Novell's new SSO solution has such wide range of supported applications they have a good thing going on

the main point i am trying to get at (and i am not anti ms we also have nt, 2k in work) is from my experence and reviews the novell products seem better but i just dont understand why novell dont push themselves and give ms a better run for their money. if you were the ceo in novell would you not b doing this?

I don't know, perhaps it is because they spent too much on trying to win a lost war years ago

by the amount of work you do am sure the last thing u want is another section but would it be worth piloting a netware section just to see what sort of responce u would get?

Actually, I want the site to have a section for every IT cert out there. I usually don't create a forum before I or someone else wrote some TechNotes or practice exams for it, unless several people request it. But it takes little effort to create a new forum, so give me a couple of minutes on it will be online. I will create one 'Novell' forum for all certs combined, if it gets out of hand, I will create separate forums for CNA, CNE, MCNE etc. If it doesn't work out I'll move the posts the General Cert forum.

matchey

thankyou webmaster, novell seem to be losing the cert war also? their marketing dept needs sorted big style

but it will be interesteing to see the responce.

looking forward to c what u think on that article, hope i am not being too much of a pain.

thankyou

matchey

webmaster did u ever get a chance to read this article ?

http://www.novell.com/info/collateral/docs/4621266.05/4621266.html


would be interested to hear what others think on this article too as we have a big decision to make in work, upgrade to netware 6.5 or move to w2003 !!

Webmaster

Hi Matchey,

Yes, I did read the article a while ago... sorry forgot to post a reply here. Let me correct that, I tried to read the article. It became difficult to read after the first sentence of the Introduction:

Some of these organizations are considering ripping and replacing their current network operating environments with an all Microsoft environment. If you are considering such a move, read this paper before going ahead. Investing a few minutes now could save you considerable time and money in the future.

because I had to laugh about the fact Novell is still not over the fact they lost the NOS-war a long time ago. After reading a couple of lines further, I noticed this was not something that appeared only in the Introduction.

Anyway, IMHO, and I hope I don't offend anyone with this (except for the person who wrote the article), but I think the entire article is a rather pathetic attempt to gain a larger percentage in the NOS market by creating, or using present, negative feelings towards MS. I hope for Novell that their consultants and sales reps don't keep repeating this over and over again.

Microsoft operating systems had 193 known vulnerabilities in 2000-2001 whereas Novell NetWare had only four known vulnerabilities.

The keyword here is of course "known". It would be nice if they would include the number of systems running Microsoft operating systems and the number of systems running Novell Netware, how many of those are connected to the Internet, and most important, how many hackers and crackers focus on Microsoft OSs.

I guess the security holes in Netware are not likely to become 'known' because hardly anyone takes an effort to find them. Maybe my guess will become a fact if Novell Netware arises again and wins the NOS-WAR II. And at the same time proof all those companies currently using Windows wrong.

Also note they do not refer to a single version of Windows, and it's over 2000-2001, which does not include Windows 2003.

But regarding your big decision, I think you need one or more very good, specific, reasons to migrate to Windows 2003. If you cannot find those, I would suggest you stay on Novell, primarily because you already have the knowledge to manage the Netware network and especially if you have a tight budget. If you do choose Windows 2003 for a good reason, you will have to make sure all people involved in migrating and maintaining the network are properly trained. One of the reasons 'Novell-people' claim Windows servers are unstable is because they don't treat the Windows servers with the same care and expertise as they handled their Netware servers.

Something else that is often sound to do when you migrate from Novell is to redesign everything, don't try to mimic the Netware network in an MS environment. If you go Microsoft, do it the Microsoft way.

Ok, that is enough defending Microsoft for one day... and <ahem>.. I need to reboot my computer.

Good luck with your decision!