Getting old trying to find a job

Crunchyhippo

It's been six months now since I've obtained my glorious CCNA (and then my Security+), and the job offers (or interviews for that matter) have not been rolling in. The phone calls for interviews are so few and far between that sometimes I pick the phone up and check to make sure it's still working. I clearly have little of value in the eyes of employers. I must admit that my CCVP studies are being adversely affected by the dearth of opportunity as well.

August will be my one-year anniversary of my CCNA. So I've decided that unless I've been able to find something worth having, job-wise, by this date, I'll be moving on to another job field where the grasses of opportunity are greener and where I won't have to start out in the job market as the IT mop-and-bucket boy in order to get my foot in the door. I hope it doesn't come to that, but with a family, I have to do what I have to. I don't want to waste any more time in a field which may have nothing for me. I had no idea starting out that one had to have experience prior to having a job in networking, or else work for rock-bottom wages and hop from job to job in order to get something worthwhile in the end.

This whole networking journey for the last 1 1/2 years has been a bittersweet experience for me in many ways. I've enjoyed learning things I never knew before, and I'm happy for those who have "made it," for sure. I have a feeling, though, that there are many who didn't make it for each one who did.

fommy

thinking of leaving IT world for go. takes the piss

HeroPsycho

What real world experience do you have?

If the only thing you have is lab work and your cert, you need to be more realistic in terms of what you're gonna get as a first job in IT.

My first full time job in IT was for Microsoft Premier Product Support, and I made good money. Sounds great, doesn't it?

Now, rewind what I did to get that job.

I worked 4 years in a mom and pop computer shop doing system builds, troubleshooting, data recovery, some basic networking, etc while going to college making $7/hr. It wasn't my intention to go into IT as a career at the time, but this still helped. I had a good grasp of general networking, OS configuration and installation, good troubleshooting skills, etc.

In Mar. 2002, I decided to go into IT. While working as a public school teacher, I began preparing for MCSE exams, and doing side work to gain experience. I did small business type deployments, and leveraged a contact within IT to do a non-paying internship whenever I had spare time. I also did volunteer IT work for local charities and churches.

I achieved my MCSE in April of 2004. It wasn't until later that year I was offered my first full time gig in IT. Up to that point, it was a nerve racking ordeal of interviews, rejections, or me turning down some jobs because they didn't pay at least what I made on a meager public school teacher salary.

The job with Microsoft I got because of the combination of my experience, my interpersonal skills, my certification, and my in depth knowledge of Exchange that went beyond what is required for certification. I blew the barn doors off in the interview; in fact, I was told I scored higher on the prior screening test than anyone else.

This isn't bragging. I'm illustrating what I had to do to even be fortunate enough to land that gig. Notice I said fortunate; I don't believe that the reason I got it was all because of me. Chance played a part in it, too.

To top it all off, you're currently trying to find your first job in a time of an economic downturn, just as I was in 2002. You need to be patient. You also need to ensure you're not relying on your certifications alone to get you a job.

Make sure your resume is in shape. Network and find someone who is in the know to review your resume to ensure it's the best it can be.

Gain practical experience that you can put on your resume. Volunteer work or internships goes a long way!

Always remember in economic times like these it's hard to find A job, not even trying to find THE job you really want.

Also, if an IT job is not much more, or is the same, or less than what you make now, you may need to take it for the experience. Evaluate it in terms of if it gives you the experience and what not you need to make a big jump sooner. Sometimes you have to do that.

Finally, network, network, network. You need to meet people who are in IT in your area. Go to User group meetings for Windows, Linux, whatever. I was fortunate to find a mentor to help me get that internship, and he subcontracted side work to me, and allowed me to use him as a reference. While the opportunities never panned out, he also referred me when jobs at his employer or contacts that he knew opened up. You need contacts like that you can leverage!

seuss_ssues

fommy wrote:

thinking of leaving IT world for go. takes the piss

huh?

jarjar

What state are you in? I know in NY I had to fill out a Godless amount of info on the NY state job website. A year later (I know, WTF?), tons of "canvas letters". Do you live near a city? Don't give up! Your day will come.

blargoe

Switching to a field in which you have no practical experience isn't going to net you the kind of money that it sounds like you want. This would be the same in IT or any other field.

What exactly are you looking for as a suitable first job?

dtlokee

If you think you can or you can’t, you’re correct.

If you’re not getting calls I would consider reviewing your resume (or paying somone to do it, although I have good and bad expriences with others wting a resume). It’s like fishing and if the bait doesn’t look good you won’t catch anything,

BeaverC32

IT mop-and-bucket boy? I think the problem is that you expect too much. Many people broke into IT by working some crap jobs -- why should you be any different?

Claymoore

BeaverC32 wrote:

IT mop-and-bucket boy? I think the problem is that you expect too much. Many people broke into IT by working some crap jobs -- why should you be any different?

Exactly. I spent 2 years selling PCs at Best Buy in college and a year doing some real grunt work - pulling cable, building PCs, swapping keyboards for $10 an hour. A 'promotion' (3 people quit) and a raise to $12.50 got me 6 months of Novell support experience and 3 MS exams got me a well-paying contract. 3 more months experience, 3 more exams for an MCSE and I had an offer for my first really good job. 11 years, 2 more certs and one relocation later and I am the Senior Systems Engineer for a mid-sized insurance company. I have a good job now, but I put in my time in the trenches and you will probably have to as well. About the only way you graduate college and immediately get a job as a CEO is if you start your own business - the rest of us have to work our way up through the ranks. So grab a mop and go to work for 6 months or a year or join the rest of those who washed out because they couldn't handle the realities of this industry.

networker050184

If you think IT is the only field you have to start at the bottom you are going to be dissapointed your whole life........

Crunchyhippo

networker050184 wrote:

If you think IT is the only field you have to start at the bottom you are going to be dissapointed your whole life........

Is that how it works? One goes to college for four years, for example, puts his nose to the grindstone FT, and finally graduates - *expecting* to start out with a job at 10.00/hr? I don't think so. He expects to be rewarded for his hard studying pretty quick, not somewhere down the road. He knows he won't make *as much* as he will a few years out, but he'll sure be making more than he did without his degree/diploma. Not so in networking - everything above still applies, except that when you "graduate" you get a job making a wage as if you had never obtained a certification or never bothered to crack a book. That is, if you can find a related job at all.

Moreover, your argument is a strawman, as I never believed what you claimed I did in the first place.

sprkymrk

Wow, what happened to the usually supportive "hang in there" comments?

Crunchyhippo, what do you currently do to earn a living? Since you are supporting a family but not yet working in IT, I assume you have some sort of job right now that pays the bills.

I did not enter IT full time until I was 30 years old - almost 10 years ago now. Until then I had been an electrician (12 years) and earned good money. I knew if I just jumped from Journeyman Electrician to entry level IT I would be taking a huge paycut, so instead I started out part time in IT while still holding down my electrical job. I used my contacts as an electrician (those who knew I was a perfectionist and knew my integrity) to pick up IT jobs. Repairing computers, setting up computer labs, setting up security and networks for small schools, anything at all that would gain me some experience so I could walk the walk and not just talk the talk at interviews. The final step was to take a 10 month MCSE course at an IT college. I earned my certification, and learned a lot along the way, but more importantly I gained valuable contacts of people already in the business and those in the same boat as me. I owe a lot to the school's wonderful Career Placement lady who helped me make a good resume and actually recommended me to a few of her contacts. Within a few weeks of graduating she landed me 2 interviews - good interviews, not Best Buy or Garage-BUilt PC's Inc.

I was offered both jobs - one for Cisco stuff that payed more than I was already making as an electrician (and on a side note, it was a company I had worked for as an electrician for 4 years but left 7 years prior and they were going to let me count the 4 years towards my seniority with regards to 401, vacation, etc.) and one for a DoD Contractor making a little less than I was currently making.

I took the DoD job for 2 reasons. First it was MS, which was up my alley - I didn't learm Cisco until a few years later. Second, there was very little travel, only about 3 times per year. The Cisco job would have been 50% travel and I had a wife and 2 children.Anyway, I've never looked back and things have gone well.

I just wanted to share my story to encourage you to be resourceful in how you switch careers. It doesn't have to be all or nothing. You can ease into it if you are creative. Your dream might take longer to materialize, but when it does it will be sweet.

Good luck.

liven

Ya hang in there man.

It takes time. but like everything in life "good things come to those who wait!".


I had to put in several years at low paying help desk jobs. But in the end the experience was critical to me getting were I am today (security administrator for major company).

I started working help desk calls from everything to phone lines, dialup, webhosting, hardware, software you name it. In time my work ethic showed those above I could and wanted to handle more. Eventually they (my bosses) made that happen.

But now life is pretty good.

Another example. My brother, graduated from a very good school with a typical bach degree. Couldn't get a "Good" job, but was able to "get by". However he really wanted to be a lawyer, so he quit working, survived on his wifes pay (they also have kids). And graduated with top honors from one of the best law schools around. TOOK HIM OVER A YEAR TO FIND A JOB AS A LAWYER!!!!

But, he never gave up, flew all over the country interviewing, and finally some one hired him. A few years later things are really starting to pay off for him. Now from start to finish for him it was about a 5 year process. But he will make it up quick!!!

So will you. Bite the bullet and get on the help/support desk some where. That will get the ball rolling. Then a year or so down the road you things will change.

Ahriakin

In the workplace you get rewarded for performance, not study. You can use the certs as proof of a knowledge level that implies your performance will be better than an uncertified competitor but it is only one factor and not a defacto entitlement to employment (or higher salary). It's been said many many times that Certs are of benefit primarily as additions to experience, you can use a Cert to get your foot in the door for a position you otherwise would not get due to a lack of experience but you will be at the lower end of the pay-scale for those kind of positions. Use this as a time to gain that experience and put enough real-world weight behind your skills to get the types of jobs/salary you expect.

My first job out of college (Physics degree) was on the support phones for a PC retailer earning a whopping $8.50 an hour. After completing my own CCNA, some of the CCSP and a few MCPs I started my current job at the very bottom of it's payscale because I lacked hard experience with Cisco, 18 months, a lot of study but more importantly a LOT of implementing that study netted a payboost to the high end.

Do your time in the trenches. Take it as an opportunity to prove yourself, it'll be worth it in the end.

networker050184

Crunchyhippo wrote:

He expects to be rewarded for his hard studying pretty quick, not somewhere down the road.

Unfortunately thats not the case most of the time. A great career takes time and investment. It isn't something you just walk into with a little education. I think your expectations are a little high. Just keep at it and you will make it. Its not something that happens over night though.

Claymoore

I know we're supposed to be talking you down from the ledge here, but by the time you get enough job experience to move up to the position and salary you want, your CCNA will be ready to expire. Ain't that a kick in the nuts?

Hopefully by then you will be ready for some CCNP exams and those will renew your CCNA automatically. Even though the tests will be more difficult, you should have enough experience to at least make the studying easier. Be prepared to repeat the study-recertify cycle every few years until you retire or go into management. The good news is this industry does reward those who study and work hard - eventually.

BeaverC32

Crunchyhippo, it seems that salary is the #1 priority for you. The problem with that is that it looks like you are expecting way too much and as a result are throwing away opportunities.

Where would you be now if you had taken a lower paying job a year ago? You'd have 1 year experience, vs. none. You might have been making crap wages, but would you have been any worse of than you are?

snadam

Crunchyhippo wrote:

networker050184 wrote:

If you think IT is the only field you have to start at the bottom you are going to be dissapointed your whole life........

Is that how it works? One goes to college for four years, for example, puts his nose to the grindstone FT, and finally graduates - *expecting* to start out with a job at 10.00/hr? I don't think so. He expects to be rewarded for his hard studying pretty quick, not somewhere down the road. He knows he won't make *as much* as he will a few years out, but he'll sure be making more than he did without his degree/diploma. Not so in networking - everything above still applies, except that when you "graduate" you get a job making a wage as if you had never obtained a certification or never bothered to crack a book. That is, if you can find a related job at all.

yes, thats exactly how it works.
Its a good thing that you didn't go to school for child education, because you would have been sorely disappointed about how much you make 'out of the gate'. To me it sounds like since you have a degree, you're expecting a nice 'cushy' job on a silver platter. Experience trumps all, my friend. The more experience you have, the better chance of landing a good job. ANY good employer knows that. Jobs, especially good ones, are not given; they are EARNED. You earned a degree, more power to ya! Now you need to earn a good job.

that being said, it appears you live in Florida. I heard the IT job market there is so-so. In fact, didnt KG leave Florida for LA recently primarily because of the job market? Im not saying move, but perhaps really look at the condition of the FL job market. Having the 'trifecta' (experience, certs, degree) will also help your case for a good job.


Im all for you landing a great job that you love. I believe everyone deserves a good job if they earn it. This thread might be your frustration talking, but seriously consider the suggestions that people are giving you, and re-think the job hunt.

Best of luck and HANG IN THERE crunchy!!!

Netstudent

Surely with a degree you could get a job making more than 10 an hour. Come on, customer service managers at wal-mart make that much. Hell I made 10 an hour before I ever had a degree or certifications. With an A.S degree you should start out at 13 or 14 an hour, unless the job market just sucks really bad, then you may have to settle for whatever comes along. With a 4 year degree from a university, you should be making more than that. If you have a 4 year degree and are making 10 an hour, you're not doing something right. Thats my opinion.

blargoe

No one owes you anything in return for the hard work you put in to getting your degree. It is a fine accomplishment, but a company can value that however the market dictates that they value it. If you don't have any practical experience, then it's a risk for them, and you are worth less INITIALLY.

Not saying to expect as low as $10/hr, I don't know anything about the area in which you live, but don't expect to get a hefty increase in salary just because it's IT.

HeroPsycho

Can't we all just get along?

BeaverC32

I'm all for getting along, but life isn't all about daffodils and cotton candy...sometimes it's a complete b|tch Just trying to be realistic.

HeroPsycho

I hate you, too.

lnsomnia

Take some contract jobs to help build your real world experience. If you come across as someone who is humble enough to take a contract job and be up beat about it, the employer will see that and may offer you a permanent position. But if you come across as someone who thinks you should be giving everything on a silver platter then you're going to get shot down.

Let me share with you some real life experience. Last year we had 6 contractors come in to help with a rather large hardware deployment project. We saw potential in 2 of them right away and eventually ended up hiring them. It was probably 2 months into the project when this 3rd fellow who was very quiet but always did what was told of him and had a good attitude, we found out he had a Masters in Information Technology and here he was cracking open Dell boxes ghosting PC's, laptops, etc. and doing desktop work for $18/hr. We were dumbfounded by his credentials at what he was doing. His response was basically similar to yours but with less whining, the job market out there wants experience and he didn't have any. So another 2 months go by and he landed a job with IBM making $55k/year with a $10k signing bonus. He relocated to Houston and that was that. He humbled himself to take a lower paying contractor job knowing very well that his future looked brighter.

Degree's are nice but if you got no experience to back it up you're basically another "paper cert".

I have no degree and I'm actually happy I don't, but plan on getting it soon. I'm not left with a $40k bill at the end of my graduation, instead I have my employer pay for my classes.

Good luck bro, just remember to humble yourself!

KGhaleon

You need to keep looking and try harder. It's a misconception to believe that you'll make a lot of money once you get a college degree. You only get big money when you have the experience...so during your college days you should have been getting IT jobs or starting out low with some helpdesk jobs.

I worked in a dusty old shop repairing computers and dealing with some of the rudest and most disgusting people imaginable, but I got great experience from it for my resume. I also worked from sun up to sun down running hundreds of network cables through walls and ceilings, hauling heavy coax cable up 4-5 flights of stairs, etc. But I got some experience.

It also depends on where you live, what sort of salary you'll make. You should move somewhere where the jobs pay a lot. I just moved to LA and the jobs here pay $20+/hr compared to Florida where I lived before where it was $9-12 for the same job.

Turgon

Crunchyhippo wrote:

networker050184 wrote:

If you think IT is the only field you have to start at the bottom you are going to be dissapointed your whole life........

Is that how it works? One goes to college for four years, for example, puts his nose to the grindstone FT, and finally graduates - *expecting* to start out with a job at 10.00/hr? I don't think so. He expects to be rewarded for his hard studying pretty quick, not somewhere down the road. He knows he won't make *as much* as he will a few years out, but he'll sure be making more than he did without his degree/diploma. Not so in networking - everything above still applies, except that when you "graduate" you get a job making a wage as if you had never obtained a certification or never bothered to crack a book. That is, if you can find a related job at all.

Moreover, your argument is a strawman, as I never believed what you claimed I did in the first place.

I came out of Unversity with a Master's degree in IT in 1995 and I had to go through 18 months of applications before I got my first solid fulltime job as a systems administrator. Once there I worked my tail off for 20 months before moving up. The things I learned at University had some application once I had gained some read world support experience and the certification process I embarked upon helped me understand the work much better. The problem I encountered back then was lack of experience hampering my applications for my first fulltime IT job, then I found a company that wanted someone green they could bring through so I got a start eventually.

What Im saying is the problem you are encountering is not a new phenomenon.

Stick at it!

Mishra

I started out making 7.15 an hour being an it assistant at a 3 man company. Moved on to the big 10 dollars an hour at a NOC. Went to 35K as a system administrator for 1.7 years. After that I had a 45K job for a few months and now a 65K job. It has only been 4 years but I know make the money that I want to make, and for being 22 thats pretty good.

I just worked hard... Really, all it took was dedication and a self promoted desire to learn IT. (meaning this isn't my passion or anything).

That being said, there is also something else to consider. If you really don't think you are going to enjoy IT then this is the best time to leave. You don't have too much time invested into the trade which will be the best plan if you don't have a desire to work. Most people would like to start anywhere in IT (excluding customer support) just to experience the job itself, not make the money. Starting out working on PCs and learning the trade is actually an exciting time.

I think you have a pretty important decision to make.

phantasm

Mishra wrote:

After that I had a 45K job for a few months and now a 65K job. It has only been 4 years but I know make the money that I want to make, and for being 22 thats pretty good.

Wow, your 5 years younger than me and make at least twice my income. As if my day didnt suck enough. lol. I can't even find a helpdesk job right now. lol.

Mishra

phantasm wrote:

Mishra wrote:

After that I had a 45K job for a few months and now a 65K job. It has only been 4 years but I know make the money that I want to make, and for being 22 thats pretty good.

Wow, your 5 years younger than me and make at least twice my income. As if my day didnt suck enough. lol. I can't even find a helpdesk job right now. lol.

I do have 4 years of experience but my determination and knowledge is what pays off in interviews. I think interview techniques are something so important that there should be classes solely based on that (kind of like having someone help with a resume).

dynamik

Mishra wrote:

I do have 4 years of experience but my determination and knowledge is what pays off in interviews. I think interview techniques are something so important that there should be classes solely based on that (kind of like having someone help with a resume).

Agreed. I took a 2 credit Career Development course just to fill in my schedule a couple of years ago, and it was probably the most useful course I have ever taken. It was essentially working on your resume and practicing for interviews. The instructor and the TAs would really grill you with difficult questions. It was a great opportunity to basically just screw up a lot of interviews. Getting those stupid mistakes out of your system helps to ensure that future interviews will go much more smoothly.

They allow us to stop in any time for help with our resume and/or practice interviews while we are in school and one year past graduation. If you're in college or recently graduated, you should check with your school to see if they offer something similar. I didn't even know we had this available until I stumbled upon that course.

phantasm

Mishra wrote:

phantasm wrote:

Mishra wrote:

After that I had a 45K job for a few months and now a 65K job. It has only been 4 years but I know make the money that I want to make, and for being 22 thats pretty good.

Wow, your 5 years younger than me and make at least twice my income. As if my day didnt suck enough. lol. I can't even find a helpdesk job right now. lol.

I do have 4 years of experience but my determination and knowledge is what pays off in interviews. I think interview techniques are something so important that there should be classes solely based on that (kind of like having someone help with a resume).

I do fairly well during interviews and I'm confident of my abilities and would never exadgerate them. Still... trying to get into the field is damn near impossible. lol. Right now I'm a Data Analyst and make 15.5 an hour. I'd kill for an entry level IT job, even it means a pay cut. lol.