Any particular reason MCSA is undervalued?

snadam

after acquiring the MCSA, I find it hard to locate any jobs that list it in thier ad's. I know Ive heard it before, but why do you guys think the MCSA is so undervalued/unnoticed in the field? Type in MCSA, I get one return. Type in MCSE and I get about 45. AND most jobs listed for MCSE a good MCSA can qualify for just fine. Funny how that works. Just wanted to bring up a good conversation (that and I am close to 1000 posts ) ; discuss!

cacharo

I think has to do with the way that the ads are written in the first place. Not that the cert is neccessarily undervalued. The jobs posted usually ask for the higher end certs or 4 yr degrees, when they will in many cases consider less than that. They are much better off asking for an MCSE and hiring a MCSA than asking for the MSCA and getting everyone who has passed the 70-270 applying.

slinuxuzer

Mcsa I overshadowed by Mcse, most recruiters are not technical people and they are most often the people that write the job postings or revise them. I see alot of jobs that list must know linux, cisco, vmware, mcse, 4yr degree, and just tons of requirements, then they list the salary as 15/hr.

Ten years ago 15 hr was decent, or at least more so than today, these kinda postings make me laugh and at the same time make me mad, everyone wants one stop shopping for pennys on the dollar.

snadam

@ cacharo

The common trend ive been seeing is MCSA Required, MCSE preferred. Okay so I only saw it once, but I feel thats gives candidates a better idea of what they're looking for. The ones that get me are how sweet the job title/description and requirements are; only to find out its a helpdesk job Those I cant stand.


@slinuxuser

completely agree. You can definitely point out which ones have been written by HR people and which have been written by IT guys. Case in point; an ad for a infosec manager had the following requirements:

-MCSE, CCNA, MCP (WTF, if you have an MCSE, then MCP is given.)


the good in this is that it somewhat forces you to advance your MS studies. The bad is that you've reached the MCSA mountain top, and nobody seems to care...

Slowhand

Since every other recruiter I talk to thinks that I have an MCSE and just misspelled the acronym on my resume, I'd say it's a safe bet that the reason MCSA isn't as highly-regarded as MCSE is because MCSE is very popular. It's popular among IT people, it's popular among HR managers, it's got mainstream popularity, and therefore, it's a buzzterm. Lots of people know all about MCSE, CCNA, and A+, but they've never heard of MCSA, CCNP, or Convergence+, mainly because those certs haven't gotten the same buzz-worthy reputation in the industry. Most people don't understand what an MCSE is qualified to do, so they think that any Windows-related job requires an MCSE, while an MCSA could do the job just fine. (My job is a good example: they ask for people with MCSE certifications, but the job only really requires MCSA status.)

blargoe

I think it's valued within IT departments but that's not what you see on online job postings, which are usually recruiters trying to catch the biggest fish with the least bait.

networker050184

I agree with blargoe. The ads you see are posted by recruiters or HR people who don't really know anything about a certification. Once you get to the hiring manger (usually someone with some technical knowledge in my experience) they will recognize you for your qualifications. I bet someone with a CCNA and MCSE gets more calls from recruiters than someone with MCSE and CCNP simply because of the way the resumes are searched. Thats why I think it is very wise to list MCP or CCNA even if you have higher level certs.

ajs1976

The MCSE has been out for a long time. The MCSA didn't come into existance until a year or two after the Windows 2000 MCSE track was released. It still hasn't caught on with a lot of the non-technical people.

BeaverC32

I wouldn't say MCSA is undervalued -- I received a 3% raise upon completion of my MCSA (not counting my annual review). I would also list on a resume the whole name of the cert, "Microsoft Certified System Administrator", because that will get more hits than just "MCSA".

undomiel

Well it probably doesn't help that these tech support positions advertising for $12/h or such actually sometimes get those MCSEs. At my Dell job there were a number of MCSEs there. Probably of the paper variety though because I don't recall any of them impressing me with any sort of knowledge. Most of the best techs I knew there only had an A+, and some of them were just like me they only got the A+ plus the company required it 1 month after hire. Only a few were sys admin material though. Actually only one that I can think of. That's what he got after that job too, no cert beyond A+ either.

snadam

ajs1976 wrote:

The MCSE has been out for a long time. The MCSA didn't come into existance until a year or two after the Windows 2000 MCSE track was released. It still hasn't caught on with a lot of the non-technical people.

really? I didnt know that. I thought the MCSA/E came out at the same time.

And for all you job hunters, the point blargoe brought up about catching the biggest fish with the least bait holds true in other fields as well. My wife is looking for new job after finishing her 4-year degree (Business management/accounting); and even the most basic entry-level jobs require unbelievable amounts of credentials AND experience. While you could apply anyway and see what happens, it just sends the wrong message to applicants at the same time. Its a funny game, this job hunting is...

cacharo

snadam wrote:

Its a funny game, this job hunting is...

There is a lot of give and take to it...

We want: The best job with the best benefits and the best pay for the least effort or as fast as possible.

They want: The most qualified person with the most experience for the least money.

Then the negotiating begins...

Us: I'll do this job with these qualifications

Them: OK well we will pay you this..

I agree with you, If they were realistic with their asking qualifications then it would be easier for us to find each other. But that will likely never happen because then they would pass up their opportunity to hire a CCIE for 40k. If it were me I would not think a CCIE actually willing to take 40k as a huge value, I would likely stay away as if he/she were the plague.

undomiel

Or try the CCIE for $28k from a few weeks ago.

snadam

cacharo wrote:

snadam wrote:

Its a funny game, this job hunting is...

There is a lot of give and take to it...

We want: The best job with the best benefits and the best pay for the least effort or as fast as possible.

They want: The most qualified person with the most experience for the least money.

Then the negotiating begins...

Us: I'll do this job with these qualifications

Them: OK well we will pay you this..

I agree with you, If they were realistic with their asking qualifications then it would be easier for us to find each other. But that will likely never happen because then they would pass up their opportunity to hire a CCIE for 40k. If it were me I would not think a CCIE actually willing to take 40k as a huge value, I would likely stay away as if he/she were the plague.

Definitely agree. Much give and take and negotiation is key. You can get there, but you have to earn it. At times it can be discouraging, but for me that just means you got to push yourself even harder.

Id be weary of a CCIE or CISSP taking an entry/mid level position as well Although some job ads seem to think thats commonplace...

doom969

Well Snadam, you're awfully close to a thousand posts !
Maybe we should throw a party or something.




(Sorry to hijack the thread)

snadam

doom969 wrote:

Well Snadam, you're awfully close to a thousand posts !
Maybe we should throw a party or something.




(Sorry to hijack the thread)

nah, dont worry about the hijack! 1k feels good. I have 4 starts under my name now WOOHOO!


Okay now we can go back to the topic at hand if you want....

BeaverC32 wrote:

I wouldn't say MCSA is undervalued -- I received a 3% raise upon completion of my MCSA (not counting my annual review). I would also list on a resume the whole name of the cert, "Microsoft Certified System Administrator", because that will get more hits than just "MCSA".

beaver, thats a damn good point. I was probably going to do that and put the acronym in parenthesis as long as it looks good.

eMeS

Another point to consider is that job postings and descriptions are sometimes written to provide a convenient reason to exclude candidates.

By "convenient" I mean one that won't get the employer sued for not hiring a protected class.

I know it sounds ugly, but it is quite common and I have witnessed it often. In fact, I've often seen the term "4 year degree or equivalent work experience required" in job posting and descriptions. The first exclusionary bar here is the 4 year degree, and the second is equivalent work experience. Who decides what work experience is equivalent?

I think this speaks to the point that I've seen JD and others make on this board that having strong connections can have a dramatic impact on access to work.

I would suspect that in the example above that two people, equally qualified in terms of experience, the person that is connected to the hiring manager will be more likely to get the job. I would also wager that two candidates, #1 has a degree, #2 no degree but is qualified in terms of experience, that if the 2nd candidate is better connected to the hiring manager that the 2nd candidate will more often than not get the job.

Regarding the specific intent of your post, I would say two things are in play. First, it's easier for HR people to understand and type 1 thing, which is probably MCSE. I don't mean to denigrate HR....wait a minute, yes I do! Second, it's easier to disqualify against the higher certification than to qualify against the lower certification.

I wonder about this with respect to what PMI is doing with their certifications. They recently created the "CAPM" certification, which is intended to be an entry-level project management certification. However, what employer is really going to hire a CAPM to manage projects when there are over 200,000 PMPs out there? Why even bother putting CAPM in a job posting? That and the PMP exam was ridiculously easy, how much easier could they really make it to earn a CAPM? I would love to report on that, but because I have a PMP I am not allowed to take the CAPM exam.

IMO, the MCSA, as you mentioned, is a big achievement, as you've passed 290 and 291, which from what I read seem to be the Microsoft exams that give the most trouble (however, since these exams are usually taken early in the certification path, it could be that what I read is the result of a greater population of people taking 290 and 291 vs. the exams later in the certification path). Additionally, I've seen the MCSA as something that is like a milestone so to speak, that provides an interim accomplishment on the way to the MCSE. Consequently, I do not see the CAPM as serving this same function relative to the PMP.

MS

NetAdmin2436

Snadam,
Don't tell me your stopping at MCSA.

It is just a game that has to be played by HR people to try and weed out non-qualified people. Not that MCSA aren't qualified (they are), we all as IT personnel know this. But most of the HR people have no clue what the difference between the various certs are. They were just given a description by someone (the owner or SR IT person) and post the job ad and they look for them buzzwords on a resume. Depending on the size of the company, the HR person may or may not consult with the owner/SR IT person about your resume. So, it's a gamble if you get a callback and varies company to company. Yeah, a good IT manager should know that someone with there MCSA is close to getting there MCSE. But I would say just apply for them anyways even if you have no MCSE. I've applied at companies that were looking for MSCE's when I only had my AAS in computer networking and network+. I got a few interviews.

That in itself should motivate you to get your MCSE. You just need to play the silly game with them.

Sie

As stated it just seems to be that either HR dont understand the MCSA or that they are hoping to avoid people applying too low down the ladder and would settle for a MCSA.

I would be interested to know how many HR guys/gals know what the certifications are and what they entail, infact sometimes I wonder if they know what technology they are associated with is!

As others have said and as I have said before, go for it and apply whats to loose except the time to write the email or letter and the cost of a stamp!!

He who dares wins Rodney!!

eMeS

Sie wrote:

I would be interested to know how many HR guys/gals know what the certifications are and what they entail, infact sometimes I wonder if they know what technology they are associated with is!

In most cases they know very little about specific certifications, with the exception of their own industry certs (Professional in Human Resources (PHR), Senior Professional in Human Resources (SPHR), and Global Professional in Human Resources (GPHR)).

This is because in most companies an HR department services all business areas, not just IT. Thus, an HR person involved in the hiring process for an IT person one day might be involved in hiring a factory worked the next day, or doing some other mundance HR task like creating a document that no one will read. Additionally, it has been my experience that the primary role of modern human resources is to prevent litigation against the company, rather than to work on finding and cultivating the best talent.

In case it's not obvious from the tone of any general comments I make regarding human resources, there is a certain lack of fondness in my heart for every aspect of that function and the contribution (or lack of the same) that they make.

He who dares wins Rodney!!

I like to win, but I'm certain that I don't want Rodney.

MS

cisco_trooper

snadam wrote:

after acquiring the MCSA, I find it hard to locate any jobs that list it in thier ad's. I know Ive heard it before, but why do you guys think the MCSA is so undervalued/unnoticed in the field? Type in MCSA, I get one return. Type in MCSE and I get about 45. AND most jobs listed for MCSE a good MCSA can qualify for just fine. Funny how that works. Just wanted to bring up a good conversation (that and I am close to 1000 posts ) ; discuss!

An experienced MCSA will make a fresh MCSE look like a jackass. It all comes down to companies relying on HR reps to do their technical recruiting, which is absolutely retarded, but what can you do?

Best way to find a good job is to know your stuff, with or without the cert, and then get an internal contact that can get around the HR people. Network, Network, and NETWORK!

I didn't find my last job because I was poking around on monster.com. I knew someone that used to work at this place and got a stellar reference. Cha-Ching.

JDMurray

snadam wrote:

-MCSE, CCNA, MCP (WTF, if you have an MCSE, then MCP is given.)

True, but you should still list the MCP (at least) on your resume. There will always be HR people, and even hiring managers, looking for people with "MCP certification" and not understanding that the MCP is implied by the MCSE/MCSA/MSDBA/MCTS/MCPD/etc. certifications themselves.

Turgon

snadam wrote:

after acquiring the MCSA, I find it hard to locate any jobs that list it in thier ad's. I know Ive heard it before, but why do you guys think the MCSA is so undervalued/unnoticed in the field? Type in MCSA, I get one return. Type in MCSE and I get about 45. AND most jobs listed for MCSE a good MCSA can qualify for just fine. Funny how that works. Just wanted to bring up a good conversation (that and I am close to 1000 posts ) ; discuss!

MCSA is valued by the technical people in the know, but the recruiters can't keep up with the alphabet.

dan87951

undomiel wrote:

Or try the CCIE for $28k from a few weeks ago.

That hilarious! Don't you guys just love thos job postings? lol

whistler

dan87951 wrote:

undomiel wrote:

Or try the CCIE for $28k from a few weeks ago.

That hilarious! Don't you guys just love thos job postings? lol

Okay it is a little on the low side. But, $28,000/hour isn't a bad hourly rate for a new CCIE!;}