New truck

Talic

I just got a "pre-owned" (what happened to used to cars? ) 04 Ford Ranger. And I was curious if you guys have any advice on what to do with it before the month warranty or whatever is done. Do you think I should have a mechanic look it over or anything special like that? Money is tight after buying it, so I wouldn't really want to do anything that might be unnecessary. It has the "insert number" point inspection by the dealer also.

So far it runs great and it has a lot of addons for what we paid for it. 6 cd mp3 changer, dark tinted windows, custom grill, bed liner, and extended cab. It just has 56,000 miles on it, so it wasn't used that much. It was a leaned on, so it wasn't a gotten rid of by it's owner.

Overall, I like it. I never thought I would've gotten a Ford but I like it. I always had a thing against Fords, GMC and Dodge I was okay with, just Fords used to stroke me the wrong way. But this truck seems great so far, and from some reviews on the kelly bluebook, it should be just fine.

eMeS

You might have done this already, but running a Carfax report on a used car is a must. This will tell you the state of the vehicle's title. If it is salvage then that's not really good news. It will also tell you any accidents the vehicle has been in.

I'd also recommend having a mechanic look over it. Generally you'll want to do this with a mechanic you know and trust.

Ideally, you did both of the above before purchasing the vehicle.

MS

Talic

eMeS wrote:

You might have done this already, but running a Carfax report on a used car is a must. This will tell you the state of the vehicle's title. If it is salvage then that's not really good news. It will also tell you any accidents the vehicle has been in.

I'd also recommend having a mechanic look over it. Generally you'll want to do this with a mechanic you know and trust.

Ideally, you did both of the above before purchasing the vehicle.

MS

The dealer did run a car fax on it before we purchased, it came out fine. It seems like thats pretty standard for dealers to do that after shopping around. Everytime we got to bargaining table they would run it on the truck we were interested in. We really shopped around I think, we went through that waiting-to-buy-a-car-and-haggling thing like 3 or 4 times before running into something that seemed like it was worth what we were willing to pay. From my experiences, the regular dealerships aren't really flexible on the prices, regular as in non-luxury dealerships. We ended up buying it from a infinity dealer which was willing to haggle with us more.

Buying a used Ford truck from a luxury car dealer.... weird eh? But I think we ended up with a good deal in the end because it was better equiped then some of the other trucks other dealers were showing us.

Talic

One more thing, Car Max sucks, they just push the "no haggle, just pay the tag" gimmick to get more money out of you. If you don't like to haggle then have someone thats close to you thats willing to do it. The only thing that I found good about them was the big selection of cars they had.

Also having a phone with internet is useful for looking up bluebook prices, you need to add in extra stuff in there to find the prices. I wish I'd used my phone when I was shopping around but I still ended up saving around 3,000 anyways.

Don't let the dealers be pushy either stick with what you want to pay for, not what they want you to pay for.

eMeS

Talic wrote:

Buying a used Ford truck from a luxury car dealer.... weird eh? But I think we ended up with a good deal in the end because it was better equiped then some of the other trucks other dealers were showing us.

This really isn't so weird. They buy many of their used cars at auctions, so they're looking for something for example that they can buy for $1000 and sell for $3000 (just an example). I have a friend whose family owns a pretty large used car business.

Talic wrote:

Don't let the dealers be pushy either icon_mad.gif stick with what you want to pay for, not what they want you to pay for.

Yeah, they suck. I've only ever officially "bought" one car in my life. That was just shy of 20 years ago. I'll never do it again. Every car I've had since 1992 has been leased, which IMO is a much simpler experience than buying a car.

MS

Talic

eMeS wrote:

Yeah, they suck. I've only ever officially "bought" one car in my life. That was just shy of 20 years ago. I'll never do it again. Every car I've had since 1992 has been leased, which IMO is a much simpler experience than buying a car.

MS

I was always told leasing was a really bad idea, I don't remember the reason part though, I just remember being told it was really bad

I really didn't mind the experience though, it was like playing mind games with, ugh, shopping involved. It was pretty interesting.

I can under stand why it would be pretty hectic though, they try to get you attached to a car by the test drive, then they try to work you up to the price they want you to pay. Which can be really bad if you had a soft cap in the amount you want to spend. In our case, we had a hard cap with the max we had to spend, so it made it pretty easy to just tell them you aren't willing go over and if they say we can't do better, we just walk away.

I felt kinda sorry about wasting their time at the end though

eMeS

Talic wrote:

I was always told leasing was a really bad idea, I don't remember the reason part though, I just remember being told it was really bad

It's one of those things where there are arguments about why it is good or bad on both sides. In the end whether it's good, bad or indifferent is situational. Personally, there is no advantage to buying vehicles, but leasing vehicles offers many advantages.

MS

dynamik

eMeS wrote:

It's one of those things where there are arguments about why it is good or bad on both sides. In the end whether it's good, bad or indifferent is situational. Personally, there is no advantage to buying vehicles, but leasing vehicles offers many advantages.

Could you elaborate on that a bit? Like Talic, I've developed the impression that leasing isn't the best way to go. I think the biggest downside is that you don't own anything when the lease is up.

eMeS

dynamik wrote:

eMeS wrote:

It's one of those things where there are arguments about why it is good or bad on both sides. In the end whether it's good, bad or indifferent is situational. Personally, there is no advantage to buying vehicles, but leasing vehicles offers many advantages.

Could you elaborate on that a bit? Like Talic, I've developed the impression that leasing isn't the best way to go. I think the biggest downside is that you don't own anything when the lease is up.

My intuition tells me not to, because this is one of those things that people often have strong feelings about without corresponding insight into what any of this actually means in a big picture financial sense. But why not...here goes:

You own very little or nothing at the end of a traditional loan.

A car is a consumable. Very rarely is a vehicle a significant asset (collectibles are a different thing). When you use up most of a consumable, you might have something that holds some small value left at the end, but more often than not you have something that is worth very little. In a car, at the end of its usable life you often have something that is costing additional money in terms of maintenance at the end of its usable life. I have known people that thought they were doing the right thing by holding onto a car forever, but ended up spending in aggregate as much as a lease payment would have been in long-term monthly maintenance. Again, every situation is different.

With a purchase, you've bought something that is worth almost nothing after a period of time. You've incurred interest that cannot be deducted from taxes, and you've paid an initial sales tax amount equal to the sale price of the car. Not only that, in most cases buyers have financed this sales tax as part of their loan.

Owning a car does not equal wealth. My definition of wealth is fairly straightforward. It is:

1) An asset that generates an income

or

2) Free capital that I can invest in more of #1

For me, leasing is the best option for several reasons:

1) I only pay for the amount of the car that I actually use. This is the difference between the sales price of the car and the residual value, or what it will be worth when the lease term is complete. Again, my goal is to get the residual value as high as possible and minimize the distance between the residual and the sale price. Factoring in the lease fee, this is the amount of payments over the term of the lease. Keeping this number small keeps more of #2 above in my pocket to invest in more of #1.

2) I hate paying a penny more in taxes than I am required to. When you purchase a car you pay tax on the full purchase amount, whether you intend to keep that car forever, or trade it in in 3 years. With a lease, you only pay tax on the amount of the vehicle that you use, which is more incentive to keep the distance between the residual and the sales prices as small as possible.

3) Again with taxes. Even if you own your own business, interest paid on a car loan is not tax-deductible, even if you use the car 100% for business. With a lease however, the "interest" or lease-fee is handled a bit differently, which allows for a deduction equivalent to the percent of usage, and a very significant tax advantage.

3) I have cars that are always under warranty. While under the terms of the lease the car is always under warranty. If anything goes wrong I take it in for service and I have no required expense.

4) New cars whenever I want them. I usually go with 3 year leases, because after about 3 years I'm ready for a new car. This is a personal preference, and everyone is different on how often they want something new. Buying a car every 3 years without a significant cash outlay will generate negative equity, whereas with a lease there is never negative equity.

5) No, or low initial cash outlay. Again, preserve #2 above so you can buy more #1's.

6) More car for less money. Buying a car typically costs much more in terms of a monthly payment vs. leasing the same car.

7) No negative equity. The typical buyer of a car is in a negative equity position over most of the term of the loan. This is because the amount financed is almost always greater than the market value of the vehicle as it depreciates. Depreciation on cars tends to accelerate much more rapidly than equity builds in a traditional loan.

This can become really bad if say in year 3 of a 5 year loan the car is totaled. In many cases the debtor's insurance will pay the fair market value of the car, leaving the debtor holding the bag for whatever negative equity remains. This, IMO, is the most insidious form of debt.

With a lease you don't have this. You agree up front how many miles you plan to drive every year, and for how many years you want the lease. You also agree the value that the car will have at the end of the lease (the residual).

On leases, gap coverage is usually automatically a part of the lease agreement. This means that if the car is totaled, any gap between the fair market value and what is owed on the lease not paid for by your auto insurance is paid by the gap insurance. I think you can get gap insurance on a regular loan, but it is rare, and you have to specifically seek it out and qualify for it.

Negotiations - As mentioned, with a lease it is much easier IMO to negotiate the residual, as this is in the future and affects the sales person or sales manager very little in the present. Sales people can't think very far into the future. Additionally, when I am done with the lease, the value of the vehicle when I return it is already agreed, so there is no negotiation when the lease is over (unless you choose it, see #9).

I really hate wasting time with these knuckleheads at car dealerships. I don't know about you guys, but whenever I walk into those places I feel like someone's waiting to ninja up on me and kick me in the nuts. Kind of like that "Ow my balls guy" in the movie Idiocracy.....

9) Buy-out - Let's say you complete your lease term, and you decide that you want to buy the car. You simply pay the residual amount that you agreed to when you entered the lease. Now, if you've negotiated for a higher residual amount you've screwed yourself here, but that's ok. I've known a few people who have done buy-out options at the end of leases. They will typically negotiate with the bank and offer 75% of the previously agreed residual value. This offer is often accepted, which means that the buyer basically purchased the car for the price of a lease, but managed to get a 25% discount that a person buying the car would not have received.

It's easier to negotiate with a bank that has money on the table than it is with someone that is trying to earn a commission based on a certain sales price.



The objections to the above are:

1) "Yeah, but what about mileage limitations" - You pick the mileage limitations you want on a lease. I've known of people that had limitations as high as 25k miles per year. I usually go with 15k per year.

2) "Yeah, but you don't own anything at the end of the lease" - If you can't grasp the concept that a car is a consumable that depreciates severely and rapidly and is not an asset, then leasing is always going to seem like some kind of mystical science. It's really simple:

pay the depreciation that you use, and do it in the most tax advantageous way

or

pay all of the depreciation without tax advantage

Whether or not you are eligible for tax deduction is between you and your accountant.

3) "Yeah, but you should just pay cash for a car if possible" - Everyone's preference is different. My preference is to preserve my capital so that I can use it as an asset. Paying cash for a car isn't going to offset the amount of depreciation that is incurred, and it effectively takes that capital off of the table preventing you from using it to generate more capital.

4) "Yeah, but at the end of the lease they charge you for every nick and scratch" - I've never experienced this, and I've returned cars that had bald tires, dings in the door, etc.. One of the last cars that I ended the lease on got hit in the driver's door by the large gate that controls entrance to our subdivision about a week before the end of my lease. No one ever said anything when I returned it without fixing it...

5) "Yeah, but doesn't insurance on a lease cost more" - I'm not sure, but probably the effect is minimal. It depends on local laws, but the coverage requirements as I know them for leases aren't that much higher than for what a loan might require. I know when I was 18 and I bought my first car I was paying a ton for insurance (like $200 per month), and it wasn't that great of a car. Now that I'm older and married my insurance for both my wife and me on two really nice cars is less than $250 per month.

6) "Yeah, but if you terminate a lease earlier you face overwhelming penalties" - True, exactly like if you attempt to terminate a loan agreement early you will face equally severe penalties.

To conclude, leasing is common practices in the business world. I would wager that many of the people on this board administer equipment (servers, etc..) that is leased. Leasing is advantageous in this situation primarily because of the rate at which the technology becomes obsolete. Another advantage is that capital is preserved for other, revenue generating investments, vs. buying equipment that is going to have to be replaced in a few years (servers ain't cheap!).

In all of my years of working in and around large data centers (owned by large companies), I know of only one company that actually purchased their high-end servers, mainframes, and other equipment. Eventually they changed and started leasing these things as well.

MS

dynamik

I'm glad you didn't listen to your intuition -- that was awesome (as expected).

There will always people who disagree, but I think all of us here are mature and polite enough to do so respectively. It's those other forums you have to look for. I don't think you should ever have any reservations about sharing your wisdom here!

I had never considered leasing before, but I'll definitely look into it next time I need a new vehicle.

This thread is definitely bookmarked

LarryDaMan

Wow, great explanation and really it makes common sense. Think about the length of new car loans these days, sometimes 6,7,8 years.... what do you really own at the end? A really old car that you may not want anymore, and that is without taking into account the taxes involved.

You can trade or assume leases as well. There are a lot of people who got in over their heads with leases and you can really find a great deal by taking advantage of the financial stupidity of others. If you can absorb these gas prices, you can get a really good deal on a truck or SUV.

http://www.leasetrade.com/

eMeS

larrydaman wrote:

You can trade or assume leases as well. There are a lot of people who got in over their heads with leases and you can really find a great deal by taking advantage of the financial stupidity of others. If you can absorb these gas prices, you can get a really good deal on a truck or SUV.

http://www.leasetrade.com/

I've always wondered how that worked. I've never known anyone that did this...would be interested in hearing if anyone has...

MS

snadam

with the fact i will be needing a vehicle sooner than later, I am totally appreciative of everyone's advice. It definitely helps out with the decision making. I also found from my research that leasing a vehicle has a usually means a lower monthly bill; BUT I'm fairly un-educated about leases and the process so dont quote me on anything.





to the OP. I recently had an 06 Ranger and loved it! Since then I traded in my Ranger for a 350Z. They are great cars, and I enjoyed it. The only bad thing about them is they make HORRIBLE PRIMARY VEHICLES. So, I traded that in for an F-150. Then gas prices went WAY up...Personally I like how I can seat 5 no problem, but its just too damn big and costly of a vehicle to even be remotely practical.

I am actually looking for another small pickup soon here, primarily the 03-08 Ranger, 05-08 Colorado/Canyon, or Tacoma. Tacoma's are too damn pricey though. Out of the 5 vehicles Ive owned, Id say my Ranger was my favorite.

astorrs

+1 to everything eMeS said, I'm leasing my current vehicle and love the simplicity and ability to invest the money that would otherwise be tied up in a car loan.

Talic

snadam wrote:

to the OP. I recently had an 06 Ranger and loved it! Since then I traded in my Ranger for a 350Z. They are great cars, and I enjoyed it. The only bad thing about them is they make HORRIBLE PRIMARY VEHICLES. So, I traded that in for an F-150. Then gas prices went WAY up...Personally I like how I can seat 5 no problem, but its just too damn big and costly of a vehicle to even be remotely practical.

I am actually looking for another small pickup soon here, primarily the 03-08 Ranger, 05-08 Colorado/Canyon, or Tacoma. Tacoma's are too damn pricey though. Out of the 5 vehicles Ive owned, Id say my Ranger was my favorite.

I agree with the Tacoma thing, they are always asking for a lot for a Toyota. Buying new may not be so bad since the resale value should be high but buying used isn't the best thing to do. They try to argue that mileage doesn't matter because its well made, which is bs. It doesn't matter where its made, wear and tear is always a problem.


I was reading on Wikipedia that Ford was thinking about retiring the Ranger line of trucks and replacing them with larger trucks. It must of been before the gas crunch... because that would of been crazy, everyone is going to be looking for small trucks now because of gas prices. The dealer told me that my truck had a lot of interest from people before I came along, they said people that didn't want to pay for high gas prices but needed a truck were looking at it.

It's amazing how the high gas prices really caught all the car makers off guard, I guess they didn't think it would spike like it did. But its good in the end, all those useless SUVs and other big vehicle that people don't need go where they belong.

wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Ranger

Plantwiz

First, I appreciate your viewpoint. So please take my comments as a mere...the otherside. You do as you find correct. I however have a different opinion on Leases and it is not meant as argurment or attack...just another side....

eMeS wrote:

dynamik wrote:

eMeS wrote:

It's one of those things where there are arguments about why it is good or bad on both sides. In the end whether it's good, bad or indifferent is situational. Personally, there is no advantage to buying vehicles, but leasing vehicles offers many advantages.

Could you elaborate on that a bit? Like Talic, I've developed the impression that leasing isn't the best way to go. I think the biggest downside is that you don't own anything when the lease is up.

My intuition tells me not to, because this is one of those things that people often have strong feelings about without corresponding insight into what any of this actually means in a big picture financial sense. But why not...here goes:

Again, merely a discussion

You own very little or nothing at the end of a traditional loan.

Correct. So why not 'buy' it instead of financing? I would never take out a loan for a vehicle, nor would I ever buy a brand new model (the first year) again...did that once.

A car is a consumable. Very rarely is a vehicle a significant asset (collectibles are a different thing). When you use up most of a consumable, you might have something that holds some small value left at the end, but more often than not you have something that is worth very little. In a car, at the end of its usable life you often have something that is costing additional money in terms of maintenance at the end of its usable life. I have known people that thought they were doing the right thing by holding onto a car forever, but ended up spending in aggregate as much as a lease payment would have been in long-term monthly maintenance. Again, every situation is different.

True to a point. I've had cars up to about 10 years old and they were great vehicles. Oil changes, tires, battery and one needed a new muffler....otherwise very minimal maintenance that I've run into.

With a purchase, you've bought something that is worth almost nothing after a period of time. You've incurred interest that cannot be deducted from taxes, and you've paid an initial sales tax amount equal to the sale price of the car. Not only that, in most cases buyers have financed this sales tax as part of their loan.

Owning a car does not equal wealth. My definition of wealth is fairly straightforward. It is:

1) An asset that generates an income

or

2) Free capital that I can invest in more of #1

TRUE. However, if one purchases a slightly used car...2-3 years old, the cost of the vehicle has leveled out and most of the recalls have taken place...it is pretty easy to save up and buy something good to last a few years.

Again, Financing a car is silly (IMHO). Buy it if you want to 'own' it.

For me, leasing is the best option for several reasons:

1) I only pay for the amount of the car that I actually use. ...snip

Agree.

2) I hate paying a penny more in taxes than I am required to. When you purchase a car you pay tax on the full purchase amount, whether you intend to keep that car forever, or trade it in in 3 years. ...snip

True, but if you purchase a 2-3 year old vehicle, the hit isn't as big and the Sales tax CAN be itemized if you qualify. Again, I wouldn't finance it...I'd pay for it.

3) Again with taxes. Even if you own your own business, interest paid on a car loan is not tax-deductible, even if you use the car 100% for business. With a lease however, the "interest" or lease-fee is handled a bit differently, which allows for a deduction equivalent to the percent of usage, and a very significant tax advantage.

The mileage is a write-off and if you have something you need to rack up tons of miles on...it makes good sense to buy an older reliable vehicle and run the wheels off....and take the mileage deduction. There is little reason to ever buy a brand new vehicle and destroy it with excessive milage.

3) I have cars that are always under warranty. While under the terms of the lease the car is always under warranty. If anything goes wrong I take it in for service and I have no required expense.

Not sure how many problems you run into, but I've only had 1 vehicle (the 1 New car and last New car I'll buy...and not for this reason) that had issues. So again, buying older reliable vehicles.. have paid off. Outside of oil changes, tires and brakes as needed...it has paid off over the past 20+ years to buy used and drive them several years.

4) New cars whenever I want them. I usually go with 3 year leases, because after about 3 years I'm ready for a new car. This is a personal preference, and everyone is different on how often they want something new. Buying a car every 3 years without a significant cash outlay will generate negative equity, whereas with a lease there is never negative equity.

There may not be negative equity in this description, but there is opportunity cost with the $$$ tied up in the lease that could have been saved and invested in something else. Then part of that comes down to where one prefers the risk to be placed. I have found there are an abundance of used vehicles that have a ton of life in them....so my inital and lifetime investment in the vehicle is lower then both buying new or financing new...or even leasing. I may need to save for 1 or 2 years to have the savings to buy a car...but then it's mine. Again, history is with me on this one in that with only 1 vehicle did I have problems with it...and it was the brand-new off-the lot vehicle.

I'm for being patient. Investigating. Even buying from another owner and not off a lot, but there are some great buys on lots today if you walk in with the cash to pay for it.

5) No, or low initial cash outlay. Again, preserve #2 above so you can buy more #1's.

True....but what happens if the vehicle is totaled? Insurance will cover to a point, but what replaces the vehicle? The Lease? Or Out-of-pocket? Again, I think this falls to where one desires to place the risk.

6) More car for less money. Buying a car typically costs much more in terms of a monthly payment vs. leasing the same car.

Probably true, but even as stated earlier....A car isn't an ASSET as it doesn't generate income (you've likely read "Rick Dad, Poor Dad"? )

7) No negative equity. The typical buyer of a car is in a negative equity position over most of the term of the loan. This is because the amount financed is almost always greater than the market value of the vehicle as it depreciates. Depreciation on cars tends to accelerate much more rapidly than equity builds in a traditional loan.

This can become really bad if say in year 3 of a 5 year loan the car is totaled. In many cases the debtor's insurance will pay the fair market value of the car, leaving the debtor holding the bag for whatever negative equity remains. This, IMO, is the most insidious form of debt.

With a lease you don't have this. You agree up front how many miles you plan to drive every year, and for how many years you want the lease. You also agree the value that the car will have at the end of the lease (the residual).

On leases, gap coverage is usually automatically a part of the lease agreement. This means that if the car is totaled, any gap between the fair market value and what is owed on the lease not paid for by your auto insurance is paid by the gap insurance. I think you can get gap insurance on a regular loan, but it is rare, and you have to specifically seek it out and qualify for it.

Interesting.....yet for myself, not worth this risk. The more parties involved on the resolution...the more problematic. If I own it...I can go to the source for resolution. On a totaled vehicle it is between me and my insurance and I"m now motivated to ensure this is fair for me. If I lease it...then it's between me, the leasor and the insurance....too many for my taste. Again, interesting and I do agree...financing a car and totaling it...is very bad...you are left paying for something you cannot use.

Negotiations - snip...

I really hate wasting time with these knuckleheads at car dealerships.

Agreed. Then again with the tools in hand (some research about car values and the CASH to go with the deal...there isn't a lot of time wasted. Too many dealerships around that WANT to sell something.....again on the used car lot...not the new

....snip...

The objections to the above are:

1) "Yeah, but what about mileage limitations" - You pick the mileage limitations you want on a lease. I've known of people that had limitations as high as 25k miles per year. I usually go with 15k per year.

If you own it, you can write off all the business miles during the year.

[/quote]
2) "Yeah, but you don't own anything at the end of the lease" - If you can't grasp the concept that a car is a consumable that depreciates severely and rapidly and is not an asset, then leasing is always going to seem like some kind of mystical science. It's really simple:

pay the depreciation that you use, and do it in the most tax advantageous way

or

pay all of the depreciation without tax advantage

Whether or not you are eligible for tax deduction is between you and your accountant.[/quote]
Take the mileage write-off. Depreciating the value offers little benefit to someone who racks up miles. IF however you don't rack up miles....buy the better vehicle (with CASH) and depreciate it.

3) "Yeah, but you should just pay cash for a car if possible" - Everyone's preference is different. My preference is to preserve my capital so that I can use it as an asset. Paying cash for a car isn't going to offset the amount of depreciation that is incurred, and it effectively takes that capital off of the table preventing you from using it to generate more capital.

By not leasing or financing and purchasing 2-3 year old used cars....there is a benefit to buying. And since, for me personally, I don't see a car as an asset...the less money I tie up into the purchase I have more money to invest. As you mention it is preference.

4) "Yeah, but at the end of the lease they charge you for every nick and scratch" - I've never experienced this, and I've returned cars that had bald tires, dings in the door, etc.. One of the last cars that I ended the lease on got hit in the driver's door by the large gate that controls entrance to our subdivision about a week before the end of my lease. No one ever said anything when I returned it without fixing it...

Haven't heard of this... thought it was accepted that 'some wear' occurrs and the dealer expects this.

5) "Yeah, but doesn't insurance on a lease cost more" - I'm not sure, but probably the effect is minimal. It depends on local laws, but the coverage requirements as I know them for leases aren't that much higher than for what a loan might require. I know when I was 18 and I bought my first car I was paying a ton for insurance (like $200 per month), and it wasn't that great of a car. Now that I'm older and married my insurance for both my wife and me on two really nice cars is less than $250 per month.

Depends on the State. A no-fault state...you'll pay a bit regardless. Cannot imagine there is much difference as it has been my experience that the vehicle's value/safety/location/ and one's driving record that plays the role in determining rate.

To conclude, leasing is common practices in the business world. I would wager that many of the people on this board administer equipment (servers, etc..) that is leased. Leasing is advantageous in this situation primarily because of the rate at which the technology becomes obsolete. Another advantage is that capital is preserved for other, revenue generating investments, vs. buying equipment that is going to have to be replaced in a few years (servers ain't cheap!).

We serve over 200 clients and not a single one leases. There is no advantage to leasing when one has a plan in place to pay for things and builds replacement values into their budgets. From my accounting background to the real world experience....money is 'made' on the buy and proper accounting and knowledge can provide the best results. Properly depreciated items work in favor of the business and justify the ROI.

I do appreciate your leasing perspective. Obviously you and I won't agree nor change our habits However, I did want to offer another perspective. The more information people have and the more willing they are to learn about differing opinions the better equiped they are to make their own decisions. Again, not looking to argue, I appreciate your clear views. I offered mine. It does look that we both agree buying 'brand-new' is NOT the way to go