MCSE vs associate's degree

Klesk

Well im more than half way through my college's program for network administration (Linux, server 2003, Cisco hardware, and Novell). Ive never had a job in the IT field before. The program I am in wont get me anything towards a real MCSE cert, besides a lot of practice. I could probably get the MCSE cert, but that takes time and money on top of the degree.

I was wondering if you experienced people think that an MCSE cert would mean anything on top of the degree im going for, or should I just keep going and worry about it later, or never?

Also, what would be a good starting IT job for someone with no experiance?

Thanks

networker050184

Degrees and certifications compliment each other. One does not serve the same purpose as the other in this career field. It would be your best bet to start working towards you MCSE while you are still in school and try to get some experience as well. You should try to find some kind of internship through your school if offered. The general consensus here is to follow this simple equation brought to us by JDMurray:

degree + certifications + experience = success

This isn't to say you won't be successful with out one of theses, but your best bet is to have them all.

As far as what type of job to look for with out experience, look for any kind of position that requires little to no experience! Something along the lines of help desk or jr. admin, but tittles can be deceiving so you should look into the position description rather than going off tittle alone.

Good luck and welcome to the forums!

Slowhand

You're going to be MUCH better off getting both the degree and the cert. In the long run, certs will only get you so far. For that matter, a degree, on its own, will only get you so far. The magic combination is: a degree, certifications, and experience. When you're lacking in one, the other two will have to make up for it, so get that degree and bang away at the MCSE, then see what else you want to pick up while you're out there working. And, from the sounds of it, you've got a pretty interesting program at the school, there, so I'd keep at it and make sure you tout those skills on your resume, when you're done. Good luck, and keep the forum posted on your progress.

Daniel333

Dude, associate degree all the way. Not even close. What's the MCSE in 5 years? 10 years? But the AA will always look as good in being an AA.

As far as costs of getting the certifications, keep in mind it takes a long time, so you don't really need to worry about costs too much. $125 per test, if you take one every 3 months you should be able to pull that.

Finally, an MCSE without experience? Your resume would go straight to the shredder. You need to focus your direction to entry level certs like the A+, CCENT, Linux+ and MCTS. Certs at the right level are by far more important than a higher level cert.

Klesk

Cool, thanks for the replies.

Are the MSCE tests basically like a written/multiple choice test or do they set up a lab for you to do?

Technowiz

This gets asked all the time on this forum. Certs or degree? Of course it is great to have both along with experience. They both add to your marketability along with experience. So yes they are both good to have. But if you are going to make a comparison of one to the other and you were going to only get one or the other I think certs many times give you a greater return on your investment of time and money than a degree.

Employers don't hire someone just because they have a piece of paper whether that paper is a degree or a certification. They hire you for the skills that you have and what those skills can do for them. If I am applying for a technical position such as a network technician, administrator, etc and I have a 2 year degree in networking what does that demonstrate to an employer that I can actually do? If the program was a good one maybe I have some useful skills, or maybe I don't. There are so many colleges out there with their own unique requirements its hard to tell from a degree what you can actually come in and do and can't do. For the same time, effort, and money spent getting a 2 year degree you could probably get your CCNP. Take a look at the job listings requiring a CCNP and no degree versus jobs requiring an associates degree but no certs and see which ones pay more money.

Yes certifications expire and degrees don't. But in this field it isn't so much the paper that grows obsolete but the technology. Your 2 year degree may never expire but if you don't continue learning and keeping up with new technology, you will become just as worthless to an employer as you would if you started with a certification and stood still. Either way you have to continuously learn to keep your market value from declining.

The way I look at it is you can do most technical jobs out there without a degree if you have the skills and experience to get the job done. Certifications help in acquiring those skills and experience. Given a choice between going into the work force with just a CCIE and no degree or a bachelors and no CCIE, I would take the CCIE. I know there are others here who would disagree with that.

Where I really see value in a degree is in getting into managerial positions.

/prepares to be flamed

networker050184

Technowiz wrote:

The way I look at it is you can do most technical jobs out there without a degree if you have the skills and experience to get the job done.

You may be able to do the job, but in the end its all about what the employer wants. If they want someone with a specific cert or a degree is up to them and if you don't have the qualifications they want you may never get the chance to show them that you can do the job.

BeaverC32

Technowiz wrote:

Employers don't hire someone just because they have a piece of paper whether that paper is a degree or a certification. They hire you for the skills that you have and what those skills can do for them.

/prepares to be flamed

But in order to get hired you must first pass the screening process of HR. If you don't have a degree you may get filtered out of that screening process, as unfair or illogical as it may be.

And I disagree wholeheartedly about this:

Technowiz wrote:

But if you are going to make a comparison of one to the other and you were going to only get one or the other I think certs many times give you a greater return on your investment of time and money than a degree.

From first hand experience I have seen employers more willing to take a risk hiring an inexperienced college grad than in hiring an inexperienced individual that holds certifications.

College also offers up other benefits, such as a chance to gain experience via internships/externships. Students often land a good paying job directly out of school based on their involvement and experience they gain during school. This is a HUGE return on investment.

I have also seen IT professionals with 10+ years of experience and a few certifications go back to school because their companies were heading south and they feared that without the degree it would be very difficult to land another job making as much as they currently were.

I'm only drawing from my personal experience here, but finishing my degree has already paid off substantially. I can not say the same about my certifications (although they helped in my promotion last year). With that said, I do agree that a combination of both will eventually help you get where you want to be

undomiel

Just to add myself as a target alongside Technowiz.

Technowiz wrote:

Employers don't hire someone just because they have a piece of paper whether that paper is a degree or a certification. They hire you for the skills that you have and what those skills can do for them. I

I would wholeheartedly agree with this. HR is the one focusing on keywords and degrees, but the actual hiring manager is going to care a whole lot more about whether you can do the work or not. That has been my experience in the IT world. Not all managers are effective so there are those out there that will use the HR crutch. But at most places you can get around these obstacles. It just will take some work. Back before my MCSE I was rejected for jobs I applied for either for not having an MCSE or not having enough experience. I've never once been told I have been rejected for not having a degree.

networker050184

undomiel wrote:

I've never once been told I have been rejected for not having a degree.

Same here, but that doesn't mean your resume hasn't been dumped in the trash a hundred times by HR without even contacting you at all.

I don't have a degree at this time and I don't really want one, but I will get one eventually because there is no reason to limit myself. I just hate school and have been trying to work up the motivation to go for about seven years now! Its going to be hard to pass up with the new GI Bill coming out now though $$$$.

Technowiz

BeaverC32 wrote:

From first hand experience I have seen employers more willing to take a risk hiring an inexperienced college grad than in hiring an inexperienced individual that holds certifications.

College also offers up other benefits, such as a chance to gain experience via internships/externships. Students often land a good paying job directly out of school based on their involvement and experience they gain during school. This is a HUGE return on investment.

I have also seen IT professionals with 10+ years of experience and a few certifications go back to school because their companies were heading south and they feared that without the degree it would be very difficult to land another job making as much as they currently were.

I'm only drawing from my personal experience here, but finishing my degree has already paid off substantially. I can not say the same about my certifications (although they helped in my promotion last year). With that said, I do agree that a combination of both will eventually help you get where you want to be

Well we all certainly have our own experiences but let me ask you this. If you were going into the work force whether with or without experience and you had the choice to go out there looking for a job with either a degree or the certifications you could get with an equivalent investment of time and money which would you rather have? I'm thinking a 2 year degree would be roughly equivalent to a MCSE or CCNP and a 4 year degree equivalent to a CCIE. And when I say equivalent I'm talking purely in the time, effort, and money to acquire them. If anything those certs are probably less of an investment than the corresponding degree.

I would rather have the certifications personally. When you look at job ads for technical jobs such as a network administrator/engineer or technician the degrees are usually a "nice to have" item. I've seen people with information systems degrees working the help desk that honestly didn't have the technical skills to take on a higher level job than that. They took a lot of classes that taught them more theory than actual skills they could put into practice. If I have a CCNP I've demonstrated a certain level of technical proficiency that is just hard to quantify with a degree.

I believe the average starting salary for a graduate from Georgia Tech is around 55k. I got into IT less than 2 years ago and will be finishing up my MCSE in a couple weeks. I'm already at 55k now and could probably make more with my MCSE and the experience I have already gained. And that is in less than 2 years time and without tens of thousands spent on college. If I keep progressing at this rate I should be at 80k+ two years from now. Where will that Georgia Tech grad be that started college two years ago and finishes two years from now? Starting out with no experience in the mid 50's and climbing the ladder from there. Not to mention probably with a lot of student loans to pay off.

How much can a person make with no degree if they start working toward CCIE and end up a CCIE with 5 years experience? Probably 90k+ here in Atlanta. How much would that person be making after 4 years in college getting a computer science degree and then working for a year? Or even working while they were in college? Is that degree going to get them that six figure job? Or is it going to be heavily dependent on what they can actually DO for an employer?

I'm not saying college degrees don't have value. They absolutely do if for no other reason than opening some doors that would otherwise be closed. Also for moving up into management. That CCIE with no degree may very well reach that senior network architect position making six figures and be happy there. They may hit a ceiling if they want to move up on the management side and one day be a CIO that the guy with a degree from Georgia Tech wouldn't hit. But if he wants to continue working on gear rather than with people is it really worth the time and expense to get his degree? Not necessarily. It just depends on where you want to go in your career. All I am saying is that hour for hour, dollar for dollar, I think in the technical field certifications will usually get you more bang for the buck than degrees.

BeaverC32

Looking back at the original question, it was not about a question in deciding between a cert OR a degree, but rather the benefit (if any) of getting certified in addition to having a degree.

Rather than pollute this thread anymore, we will agree to disagree

And to Klesk, there absolutely is benefit in continuing with certification once you graduate. It keeps your skills sharp and helps you stick out from the crowd. You also might benefit from landing a job with an employer that pays for your certifications, so the additional expense wouldn't be a problem.

Slowhand

There never has to be an either-or scenario on this topic. Certifications or a degree? The answer is yes.

zen master

Slowhand wrote:

There never has to be an either-or scenario on this topic. Certifications or a degree? The answer is yes.

Precisely, these days that's like asking, should I finish high school or get certified? You better do both in this highly competitive industry!

rbutturini

Well you definitely have an advantage by going to school and getting exposed to a lot of different technologies, like you are. What I would do is go through the AA program and along the way figure out what you really like to do. If you hate Active Directory and FSMO roles make you queasy, then getting an MCSE certification probably isn't for you...If you find out you like Cisco networking and design, then putting your attentions towards a CCNA would probably be a better bet. I have a 4 year degree and a ton of certs, and I've always felt like employers like to see the degree and see specilizations of advanced knowledge in the area they are hiring for by the certs. Nobody is going to believe you are some kind of IT guru because you have a degree from an institution, but they are going to see you have an advanced education, are willing to work hard, and follow through with things. Then the certs show them you have the necessary skillsets to do the job.

Klesk

Yea I guess these course will prepare me to get those certs. After im done i could probably jump right into the CCNA cert test and maybe start the MCSE, that would look better then just trying to land a job with a degree and then stopping

thanks for your help

Talic

Just go to a school that will help you get both your degree and certifications. There, 2/3rd of the problem is solved

famosbrown

Get both! My degree has helped me get leadership positions and my certs, more technical positions. Depending on your major, you should get a more well-rounded education going toward a degree than going for a specific technology like Cisco.

What do you want to do in the long run? Do you want to be the tech/engineer, or do you want to be their boss or run an entire I.T. department, a section, or just a team? You need to know more than Cisco commands to make purchasing decisions, or making recommendations on ERP systems for an organization, etc. Maybe you will have to translate I.T. into Business when trying to convince the organization to purchase something. If you aren't the one presenting, who gets the credit for your work? I've been there and done it. Maybe you aren't interested in Networking...become a programmer, design hardware and become a computer engineer, etc. What certs will you get in those areas of I.T.?

Find your niche and what you like then go from there. Information Technology is MUCH bigger than Cisco and Microsoft certifications and networking...what I'm trying to say is to not limit yourself. You have so many choices and there is a lot of money to be made in this field!

snadam

networker050184 wrote:

undomiel wrote:

I've never once been told I have been rejected for not having a degree.

Same here, but that doesn't mean your resume hasn't been dumped in the trash a hundred times by HR without even contacting you at all.

I don't have a degree at this time and I don't really want one, but I will get one eventually because there is no reason to limit myself. I just hate school and have been trying to work up the motivation to go for about seven years now! Its going to be hard to pass up with the new GI Bill coming out now though $$$$.

+1 same here man. Finished helping put the wife through college, and when life settles down again, Ill be finishing AT LEAST my Associates. Unfortunately, the GI bill does not apply to me; but you guys definitely earned it.

Tyrant1919

I do have an Info Sys AAS, If I had to chose between one or the other, I'd take the degree. Both being best of course. MGIB still paying my exam fees :^).

pwjohnston

Slowhand wrote:

You're going to be MUCH better off getting both the degree and the cert.

That's funny because I'm always being asked if I have my MCSE and have been told on a number of occasions that an Associates is not a "real" degree.

vsmith3rd

networker050184 wrote:

degree + certifications + experience = success

Allow me to slightly amend the formula to offer even greater chances of success...

degree + certifications + experience + networking (business) = success

Don't underestimate the value of networking, meeting those in the field outside your circle of comfort and just generally getting your name out there, and in other people's minds. You will find that it isn't always so much what you know, but also who you know.

Lots of people hate to sell, but anytime you're competing for a position, you have to sell your value to others. Develop this skill.

dynamik

You're pretty close, vsmith

JDMurray wrote:

( Experience + Certs + Education + Who you know) * Luck = really good career opportunity

Slowhand

pwjohnston wrote:

Slowhand wrote:

You're going to be MUCH better off getting both the degree and the cert.

That's funny because I'm always being asked if I have my MCSE and have been told on a number of occasions that an Associates is not a "real" degree.

It's true, there's always going to be someone to knock some credential or bit of experience you have. "The MCSE isn't worth anything", "I didn't go to school, and I did fine", "An Associate's/Bachelor's isn't worth anything these days". You'll always hear stuff like this. However, for every time you hear a negative comment about a degree or certification, you can be there's been a dozen times that there's been help or a positive response. A degree isn't just training for a career, it's a rounded-out education, a project you finished. Most employers are going to take you more seriously if you have a degree, despite what certifications you have under your belt.

The thing to remember is this: nothing is a guarantee, nothing is a sure-fire way to get you a job or a promotion. However, having a degree, certifications, and/or experience gives you greater potential to go further, and having one or more is either going to help you or it may even be ignored, but it is never going to hurt you.

Tyrant1919

Slowhand wrote:

never going to hurt you.

What if my framed degree posted above my computer desk someday falls and the glass shatters? Thereby spreading a ton of glass all over my floor where my unsocked feet may be. I could get scratched!!

I'm looking to start my BS and doing some research on online degree programs. I do see a lot of job offerings 'requiring' a BS or equiv knowledge.

Slowhand

Tyrant1919 wrote:

Slowhand wrote:

never going to hurt you.

What if my framed degree posted above my computer desk someday falls and the glass shatters? Thereby spreading a ton of glass all over my floor where my unsocked feet may be. I could get scratched!!

That's not your degree hurting you, that's bad frame-hanging. And besides, I've always been a believer of the doctorine that stupdity should hurt; so hang your frame better!

Tyrant1919 wrote:

I'm looking to start my BS and doing some research on online degree programs. I do see a lot of job offerings 'requiring' a BS or equiv knowledge.

It's very true that most employers want to see a Bachelor's degree, and I've been seeing more and more senior-level and management positions requiring a Master's or PhD. So, I'll ammend what I said in my last post with this: no degree will ever hurt your chances, but the more advanced it is, the more it will help you (obviously).

Technowiz

Having a degree won't hurt you but there is a cost associated with getting a degree. It shouldn't be assumed that the benefit will always outweigh that cost no matter what. It may be true that getting a degree is a worthy investment of time and money as a general rule but there are exceptions to just about every rule including this one.

Slowhand

Technowiz wrote:

Having a degree won't hurt you but there is a cost associated with getting a degree. It shouldn't be assumed that the benefit will always outweigh that cost no matter what. It may be true that getting a degree is a worthy investment of time and money as a general rule but there are exceptions to just about every rule including this one.

Very true, there is a cost. However, if you're willing to work for it, the cost can be accomodated with scholarships, grants, loans, work-study, etc. Where there's a will, there's always a way. If money's the only thing stopping a person from pursuing an education, then that's not much of a reason at all to not go. As my economics teacher once said to me: "where are you going to school: MIT, Stanford? . . . Berkeley?!? What the hell do you have to worry about, that's a public school, you'll do it for free."

undomiel

The debt you can incur from student loans can hit you pretty hard and stick around for a long while. I'm all for getting a degree if you can get it debt free. Otherwise, it is just not worth it at all. Better to put it off and save up. And especially don't go to college to "find yourself" as you'll end up wasting a lot of money that way jumping from major to major.

Technowiz

There are other costs besides financial. There is the time and effort you expend getting the degree. And in economic speak there is the "opportunity cost", ie what you could have otherwise used the time, effort, and money expended on the degree for. I'm not trying to downplay the value of a college education. I'm just not fond of the advice that its always a smart move for someone to pursue a degree no matter what their circumstances or career goals. It isn't a given. I think the decision to go to college or not should always be considered with at least some attempt at a comparison of the costs vs the benefits for each individual.

famosbrown

Technowiz wrote:

There are other costs besides financial. There is the time and effort you expend getting the degree. And in economic speak there is the "opportunity cost", ie what you could have otherwise used the time, effort, and money expended on the degree for. I'm not trying to downplay the value of a college education. I'm just not fond of the advice that its always a smart move for someone to pursue a degree no matter what their circumstances or career goals. It isn't a given. I think the decision to go to college or not should always be considered with at least some attempt at a comparison of the costs vs the benefits for each individual.

I kind of agree. I will always recommend higher education because a 4 year degree is becoming the new high school diploma (employer requirement), but it should be based on your career goals too.

If you absolutely sure that you want to be in the networking field and only want to be a tech, administrator, or one of the few "engineers", then go for the certifications. Those certifications are only valuable in that field of I.T.

If you want some flexibility, maybe go management, learn some other skills that are required for running an I.T. department or any other business entity, go with a degree. If your goal is something that isn't within the networking side of I.T. and there aren't many certifications around for it, i.e. software engineering (programming) or computer engineering (hardware/robotic design, etc.), then go for the degree.

I can't tell you how sick I am with all of the MCSE NT folks I meet and some I work with that complain daily because they were promised the world if they got the MCSE in NT. Now the cert has been updated a few times and a lot of them are being forced to update their skillset with what technology is being ran now, which is 2003, and they don't want to work hard again for it. A lot of them are wishing they had a degree because they would have like to try something different or wish they had more options during their career. You 4 year degree doesn't expire or need recertifying. You can only add onto with Graduate Studies and make yourself more flexible, valuable, and marketable. Many organizations have personnel education as a huge metric on the Balance Scorecard, which makes their organization look better as a whole.