cheating or not?

ccnpninja

Hi guys,
I work at a networking company. My boss asked me to begin studying for CCNP. And he urged me to use **** exams (like those you know out there). He wanted a CCNP fast.
I personally feel uncomfortable with these types of "braindumps". I think they damage the certification status and over-estimate someone's skills. And it doesn't taste like a well-deserved certificate on the wall.
My boss told me that experience IS what matters. But I'm still not convinced.
What do you suggest me to do?

undomiel

Stand your ground. Explain how using brain **** could cost you your certifications. Cheating is never worth it.

LarryDaMan

You're seriously asking this question?

If your boss asked you to jump off of a bridge would you?

Do you have an ethics awareness program at your workplace?

jamesleecoleman

I don't have any certs but have you talked to your boss how you felt about this? Maybe you could explain to him that you won't know as much if you cheated to as much as you studied and passed?

Mrock4

...or remind him the fact that you could lose your ability to take any cisco tests ever in the future, label yourself as a cheater, not learn anything, and probably hurt your career.

Honestly, this guy sounds like a tool for telling you to ****. Tell him if he wants a CCNP fast, give you time during the workday to study for the CCNP the proper way. Stand your ground.

JDMurray

He needs a CCNP "fast" and doesn't want to hire one? It sounds like he needs one "cheap" to fulfill a marketing requirement or an agreement in a business contract.

Plazma

Yep... sounds like your boss is a jackhole.. and probably the type that would get pissy if you retaliated.. so many things are misunderstood in the higher levels of IT management.. I work with several project managers and solutions architects who are NOT IT people.. yet they are responsible for finding me solutions for new servers and so forth..

In short, pimp smack your boss with your ring hand :P

ccnpninja

The irony is that my boss was a LAN & Security Designer years ago, in Qatar. He's supposed to value IT skills and certs.
Yes, it's part of business contracts and partnership with Cisco.
I' m preparing the future, and the future is CCIE.
I 'll consider studying the "normal" way, then paying for the exam with my money. This may lead me to some financial issues and some complications with my boss ("cert not in time", as he wants it to be). But, I think it's worth the fight, isn't it?

kctxau

Realize also, if relationships become strained at work or you are being compared to another
co-worker/candidate, he may very likely "sell you out" for using unethical means. Regardless
of whose idea it is, in the end, you will be the one "branded". That will carry with you, for many years.

Mrock4

While your boss may look down on you for not taking the easy way out...I'm sure the community here (and IT specialists everywhere) would commend you for really studying and getting to know your stuff. It's a must if you want your CCIE anyways. No paper route there.

Please don't tell me this guy is ex-military? I see your mention of Qatar..

nel

Stand your ground mate. Dont give in. It sounds like its the usual management BS.

If you say you feel uncomfortable make sure you keep any refernces to the subject incase he gets arsey with you.

If you say your going for your CCIE in the future i cant believe you said you'll "consider studying the normal way". This for me is a no brainer because you wont stand a chance on the CCIE if you do this imo. You'll be cheating yourself ultimately.

I cant wait till i get the ccnp etc. i know its going to be a hard trek but its going to be worth it and i will reep the benefits in the end.

You make your own destiny - i think you know what you should do.

mikej412

Some companies don't mind billing customers for 20 hours of your "learning experience" that someone with the actual knowledge acquired through study could figure out how to do for the first time in under an hour.

Some companies like to find promising young talent and give them a start in the business -- and pay them low while billing them out high. Places like that do let you get lots of experience and they make lots of money on you. And sometimes as you grow in experience, they'll raise your pay to keep you happy and billing -- but you probably would be able to get even more money elsewhere. Other times they're happy to have you jump to another job (at double your salary) so that they can find the next young superstar and start the cycle again. These companies will usually have happy long time customers.

Other companies look for chumps they can pawn off on customers as experts and pay low and bill high. They may actually hire some real talent when their biggest cash cow customers complain, but since they are only in it for the money, they are happy to see complaining customers go elsewhere. Then they move on to the next mark, er customer, and start the cycle over. You still may get some real job experience here, but since you're learning as you go and sometimes scrambling to fix problems, it may not be a fun work environment. And with a dumped cert, your current boss may be able to bill you out for more money, but you may not be able to get through another (and better) employers job interview.

GT-Rob

"Some companies like to find promising young talent and give them a start in the business -- and pay them low while billing them out high. Places like that do let you get lots of experience and they make lots of money on you. And sometimes as you grow in experience, they'll raise your pay to keep you happy and billing -- but you probably would be able to get even more money elsewhere. Other times they're happy to have you jump to another job (at double your salary) so that they can find the next young superstar and start the cycle again. These companies will usually have happy long time customers"


Mike I have never seen someone describe my work so well lol My work is all fresh out of school kids, with a turn around of about 1-2 years (most people going off to make double). Very well put!

apd123

Your boss is a clown who almost definitely cheated to get where he has got otherwise he wouldn't have this attitude. It is good that he made it to management because now he can hide his weaknesses likely pawning off blame on you and others behind closed doors. I would seriously watch out for anyone who would actually try to lower your moral standards. I am not the morality police or anything I can totally understand that some people just want to get paid ok fine, but your sense of right and wrong whatever it happens to be is yours and shouldn't be forced onto others.

ccnpninja

Please don't tell me this guy is ex-military? I see your mention of Qatar..

no he's not.

I would seriously watch out for anyone who would actually try to lower your moral standards. I am not the morality police or anything I can totally understand that some people just want to get paid ok fine, but your sense of right and wrong whatever it happens to be yours and shouldn't be forced onto others.

Thanks guys for reminding me. I find your words enlightening.

msteinhilber

ccnpninja wrote:

My boss told me that experience IS what matters. But I'm still not convinced.

If experience IS what matters, then why would your boss contradict himself by asking you to **** you way to a CCNP? Obviously the cert matters somewhat to him.

As everyone else has said, a legitimate CCNP certification will benefit you in the long term, while from the sounds of things your job is only going to benefit you in the short term. **** you way to a CCNP and you risk facing a lifetime ban against any certification attempts with Cisco. If this is the way your boss is going to treat you, then he is not looking out for your best interests but only the interests of himself.

I would stand my ground and mention the risks involved with cheating. I would mention that you do not want to lower your morals to **** you way to certification. You could possibly mention the new tactics Cisco is taking with analyzing test results to flag for possible cheaters as well:

http://www.networkworld.com/newsletters/edu/2008/072808ed1.html

Slowhand

JDMurray wrote:

He needs a CCNP "fast" and doesn't want to hire one? It sounds like he needs one "cheap" to fulfill a marketing requirement or an agreement in a business contract.

I'd say this is probably the most likely case. I've worked with people who, at previous jobs, were asked to perform everything from cleaning to plumbing duties as part of their IT job, in order for the company to save money on not hiring a dedicated employee to do it. This is also why a lot of companies end up paying lots of money for an IT consultant or consulting firm, after having "somebody's kid whose good with computers" or someone like an accountant or a secretary handle IT duties, instead of actually hiring a sysadmin. You'd be surprised at how often even IT professionals and experienced managers try to cut corners and "save money" by either double-booking their staff or trying to squeeze more "value" out of them by cheating on exams or buying certifications for them.

Talk to your boss, let him know that this suggestion honestly makes you feel uncomfortable, and try to see if you can't show him Cisco's policy on ****. If he realizes that it's a bad idea, (and against the law,) then you're in the clear. Otherwise, stick to your guns and obtain your CCNP the right way, like you said, with your own time and money. You'll feel much better for it, and you'll be a much better network engineer in the end.

UnixGuy

GT-Rob wrote:

"Some companies like to find promising young talent and give them a start in the business -- and pay them low while billing them out high. Places like that do let you get lots of experience and they make lots of money on you. And sometimes as you grow in experience, they'll raise your pay to keep you happy and billing -- but you probably would be able to get even more money elsewhere. Other times they're happy to have you jump to another job (at double your salary) so that they can find the next young superstar and start the cycle again. These companies will usually have happy long time customers"


Mike I have never seen someone describe my work so well lol My work is all fresh out of school kids, with a turn around of about 1-2 years (most people going off to make double). Very well put!

+1

lool...mike just described my work fluently !! looks like a business trend nowadays

t49

Some companies gives there employees days off during the week with pay so they can better prepare for their exams.

You could mention this to him if you think its a good idea

ccnpninja

t49 wrote:

Some companies gives there employees days off during the week with pay so they can better prepare for their exams.
You could mention this to him if you think its a good idea

I don't think it is acceptable for my boss. My co-workers are asked to prepare for JNCIP. All they'll get is a one week training (which is obviously not enough for this cert). I remember he said one day "we're not on academic rythms, this is a professional rythm". Guess what he means: certs.

Actually I'm full time at a client site. I can "steal" time slots to prepare for BSCI. This is adequate for me. But one thing is sure now. I won't give up the "fight".
I'll keep you up to date.

HappyLife

This is a really hard decision, following your boss border or doing what you think is the best.I'm glad I'm not in your shoes.

ccnpninja

I sat for the JNCIA-EX exam last thursday. I failed. I studied for it and didn't use **** exams. My boss was nagging at me. But I tried to defend my opinion.
He didn't tell me about the CCNP certification. I think he got the message. He elected someone else to become a "Fast CCNA/CCDA".
I'm glad that I had the courage to implicitly say "no, I'm not a cheap one".

gorebrush

Well done - you are the real winner.

jbaello

This was the case on one of my old reputable company, a Microsoft "Architect" distributing it like it's free, he should have known better, he said that this exams are designed for you to fail, and I actually scored 678 1 question from passing it just reading sybex.

It looks like more company are pushing this type of materials, but overall the candidate suffers the consequences of this actions, where is the fun in that?

TechJunky

Our company is in the same boat. They need so many technicians CCNA certified by a certian date so we can get our cisco lab...

Guess what we are going to do...

Take 20 employees and have them trained through a week crash course by a Cisco Certified Vendor. Real companies pay for the training, not brain ****. Even if you aren't a true CCNA because you dont deal with them everyday, if your company is legit and you need a certian amount of people certified, pay for them to be trained so they atleast get real world experience and are being trained by a professional. Then if the employees leave within a year or so they have to pay the company back for the training. This is a win/win situation.

Sorry to hear about your situation.

jibbajabba

A friend of mine was just in the same situation .. His company asked also 20 ish people to braindump to get the cert in a few weeks .. they all worked together (the employees that is) and disagreed .. so the manager didn't have a chance but to send all of them (paid) to a boot camp .. Or in his case the boot camp came to his company ...


Within 6 days (14 hour / day course plus home study) they had 20 CCNA's ...

Now all 20 asked for a raise and the company declined ... lets see how that turns out ...

gorebrush

I'd take my CCNA and get another job.

Turgon

Gomjaba wrote:

A friend of mine was just in the same situation .. His company asked also 20 ish people to braindump to get the cert in a few weeks .. they all worked together (the employees that is) and disagreed .. so the manager didn't have a chance but to send all of them (paid) to a boot camp .. Or in his case the boot camp came to his company ...


Within 6 days (14 hour / day course plus home study) they had 20 CCNA's ...

Now all 20 asked for a raise and the company declined ... lets see how that turns out ...

An overall disappointing approach by the company. Even though training was provided the value of a crash course CCNA really depends on prior experience with Cisco and networking in general.

Such bootcamps generally teach to the test above all else. I have known people get CCNA with a similar approach with no prior hands experience as what is learned is usually enough to pass the exam. For newbies the knowledge is lost within a short period of time if you don't work daily with the technology and often it's never properly understood to begin with. It's also a short cut to potentially awful problems if you use a fast track CCNA to switch jobs and your experience is minimal. Six days of classroom and labs isn't a lot of experience if that's what you are falling back on to put your cisco learning into context in the field.

UnixGuy

Turgon wrote:

An overall disappointing approach by the company. Even though training was provided the value of a crash course CCNA really depends on prior experience with Cisco and networking in general.

Such bootcamps generally teach to the test above all else. I have known people get CCNA with a similar approach with no prior hands experience as what is learned is usually enough to pass the exam. For newbies the knowledge is lost within a short period of time if you don't work daily with the technology and often it's never properly understood to begin with. It's also a short cut to potentially awful problems if you use a fast track CCNA to switch jobs and your experience is minimal. Six days of classroom and labs isn't a lot of experience if that's what you are falling back on to put your cisco learning into context in the field.

+1

Sanis4life

mikej412 wrote:

Some companies like to find promising young talent and give them a start in the business -- and pay them low while billing them out high. Places like that do let you get lots of experience and they make lots of money on you. And sometimes as you grow in experience, they'll raise your pay to keep you happy and billing -- but you probably would be able to get even more money elsewhere. Other times they're happy to have you jump to another job (at double your salary) so that they can find the next young superstar and start the cycle again. These companies will usually have happy long time customers.

Other companies look for chumps they can pawn off on customers as experts and pay low and bill high. They may actually hire some real talent when their biggest cash cow customers complain, but since they are only in it for the money, they are happy to see complaining customers go elsewhere. Then they move on to the next mark, er customer, and start the cycle over. You still may get some real job experience here, but since you're learning as you go and sometimes scrambling to fix problems, it may not be a fun work environment. And with a dumped cert, your current boss may be able to bill you out for more money, but you may not be able to get through another (and better) employers job interview.

This is by far one of the best posts on how my experience is with my current company.

JohnDouglas

TechJunky wrote:

Our company is in the same boat. They need so many technicians CCNA certified by a certian date so we can get our cisco lab...

Guess what we are going to do...

Take 20 employees and have them trained through a week crash course by a Cisco Certified Vendor. Real companies pay for the training, not brain ****. Even if you aren't a true CCNA because you dont deal with them everyday, if your company is legit and you need a certian amount of people certified, pay for them to be trained so they atleast get real world experience and are being trained by a professional. Then if the employees leave within a year or so they have to pay the company back for the training. This is a win/win situation.

Sorry to hear about your situation.

a real company i may work for put people through a ccna intensive week by what i assume is a certified vendor. they rounded off their week of intensive tuition by handing out login details + subscription to a well known braindump site.