Current state of IT certifications

kriscamaro68

Well about 1.5 years ago I applied for a job doing dsl tech support. We went through training that taught us all about networking and how routers work and all that good stuff. Now I had previous experience with home routers and setting them up and just some knowledge of networking that I had tought myself through internet and what not. There was a kid in my class who had a AS in networking and a kid who was almost done with his MCSE. I had no certs at the time and i still have never taken a single class for any computer related knowledge. Every few days we would be required to take a test and pass without fail a certain amount of times or be fired from work and at the end of the training we had to take a 100 question test showing that we retained the knowledge and if failed then you where fired. On every test I scored a 95% or higher and the other 2 guys always scored 80% or lower and failed many times. The MCSE guy failed out completely and the AS guy cheated on his test to pass. I scored a 98% on the test that day. So moral of the story just because you have one or the other doesnt mean $h!t unless you have a desire to better yourself. Certs are awesome and I feel proud to have mine. School is awesome to but I have never needed it. I feel that certs are the best path for me personally because it gives me a chance to study when I have the time and also to keep up with technology and show employers that I have current knowledge of the technology that is out there today. Plus I love the fact that they are vendor specific because there are things in the I.T. field that I just dont care about and never want to learn like programming. Anyways thats my story. By the way my Bro in-law works for Cisco and has many certs and a bs in cs and without both he wouldn't be working for Cisco doing contract jobs for military bases, pentagon, and the white house. Just goes to show how everyones path is different like others have said.

zen master

kriscamaro68 wrote:

Well about 1.5 years ago I applied for a job doing dsl tech support. We went through training that taught us all about networking and how routers work and all that good stuff. Now I had previous experience with home routers and setting them up and just some knowledge of networking that I had tought myself through internet and what not. There was a kid in my class who had a AS in networking and a kid who was almost done with his MCSE. I had no certs at the time and i still have never taken a single class for any computer related knowledge. Every few days we would be required to take a test and pass without fail a certain amount of times or be fired from work and at the end of the training we had to take a 100 question test showing that we retained the knowledge and if failed then you where fired. On every test I scored a 95% or higher and the other 2 guys always scored 80% or lower and failed many times. The MCSE guy failed out completely and the AS guy cheated on his test to pass. I scored a 98% on the test that day. So moral of the story just because you have one or the other doesnt mean $h!t unless you have a desire to better yourself. Certs are awesome and I feel proud to have mine. School is awesome to but I have never needed it. I feel that certs are the best path for me personally because it gives me a chance to study when I have the time and also to keep up with technology and show employers that I have current knowledge of the technology that is out there today. Plus I love the fact that they are vendor specific because there are things in the I.T. field that I just dont care about and never want to learn like programming. Anyways thats my story. By the way my Bro in-law works for Cisco and has many certs and a bs in cs and without both he wouldn't be working for Cisco doing contract jobs for military bases, pentagon, and the white house. Just goes to show how everyones path is different like others have said.

You've never needed anything you learned in school? I think you're wrong about that one.

loxleynew

kriscamaro68 wrote:

Well about 1.5 years ago I applied for a job doing dsl tech support. We went through training that taught us all about networking and how routers work and all that good stuff. Now I had previous experience with home routers and setting them up and just some knowledge of networking that I had tought myself through internet and what not. There was a kid in my class who had a AS in networking and a kid who was almost done with his MCSE. I had no certs at the time and i still have never taken a single class for any computer related knowledge. Every few days we would be required to take a test and pass without fail a certain amount of times or be fired from work and at the end of the training we had to take a 100 question test showing that we retained the knowledge and if failed then you where fired. On every test I scored a 95% or higher and the other 2 guys always scored 80% or lower and failed many times. The MCSE guy failed out completely and the AS guy cheated on his test to pass. I scored a 98% on the test that day. So moral of the story just because you have one or the other doesnt mean $h!t unless you have a desire to better yourself. Certs are awesome and I feel proud to have mine. School is awesome to but I have never needed it. I feel that certs are the best path for me personally because it gives me a chance to study when I have the time and also to keep up with technology and show employers that I have current knowledge of the technology that is out there today. Plus I love the fact that they are vendor specific because there are things in the I.T. field that I just dont care about and never want to learn like programming. Anyways thats my story. By the way my Bro in-law works for Cisco and has many certs and a bs in cs and without both he wouldn't be working for Cisco doing contract jobs for military bases, pentagon, and the white house. Just goes to show how everyones path is different like others have said.

Moral of the story is some people retain information better than others. Some people **** on certs just to get them. Certs are merely there to get your "foot in the door" and from there it is up to how much you actually know.

UnixGuy

what's all this fuss about?


I studied my arrs off for five years to get a degree, and it was a real pain in the butt, but I just enjoyed it !!

and when I started working, I had to go with a vendor specific because I was supposed to support that vendors product and thus I had to work my arrs off again, and I enjoyed it too !!


I know people with degrees and certs who do very well.


I know people without degrees and without certs who do very well also.


yes, the market is full of idiots with papers (certs, degrees, everything..), but that's usual with any field, how many stupid incompetent doctor do we have ?? all of them have education, but only very few gets famous and do their job well, because they like it.

kriscamaro68

zen master wrote:

You've never needed anything you learned in school? I think you're wrong about that one.

Wow you didn't understand what I meant at all. I didn't need college.

rubberToe

This is getting out of hand, but hey it is fun to argue albeit most of the time there are misunderstandings as well as things taken out of context or misconstrued.

Dynamik,

Why are you studying psychology if you plan to go into the IT field. Why not pick up an IT minor or double major?

skrpune wrote:
Woah, where did THAT come from? Just because you have an education, it does NOT make you better than those who are certified.

I am an advocate of education, besides it was in reply to Dynamik. It was not meant to be condescending as you seem to have taken it.

All I'm saying is education provides a knowledge base which can easily be used to learn and implement any vendor technology. I'm for this approach. Certifications come into play as you ride down the career path.

Document your work experience, try to take on extra responsibilities, learn to do some things that don't result in a certificate.

And by God, don't let this profession consume your life as it seems to me some do.

Not all, but some put too much emphasis on certifications.

skrpune

@RubberToe - no one's arguing that college can be great, but certifications are great too in their own right, either at the beginning of an IT career or later down the road. If you don't like them, then that's fine, but you were quite condescending in your remarks towards those who are certified. I happen to be college educated too (BS in Geology, Honors College and I'll be returning to school for my BS in comp sci next semester), but I'm not making disparaging remarks about people who haven't gone to college or those who have done self-study for their certifications.

jnwdmb

rubberToe wrote:

All I'm saying is education provides a knowledge base which can easily be used to learn and implement any vendor technology. I'm for this approach. Certifications come into play as you ride down the career path.

You must mean that certifications have come in to play ("after education") as you rode down YOUR career path. This does not mean that this applies to others. I think the point that everyone is trying to get across to you is that its fantastic that this worked out for you, but others have found a different road to lead to the same destination, and for some that meant certifications with college, and for others it meant certifications and *gasp* no college. Just because it is not the traditional path, and its not the ideal path, and in some ways its not the easier path, its still a path in the same direction.
Hypothetically, Lets say I have the same job as you making the same amount of money and I start telling you that because of my circumstances I didn't go to college, yet I ended up at the same place you did career wise. It would be foolish of me to tell you that just because I took a different path and still ended up where you did, that you wasted time and money on a college education. Or that you put too much emphasis on your education and you should of spent your time doing other things....once again, i would be foolish for taking a stance like that. Maybe your views are getting lost in translation but it seems that some are coming to that type of conclusion.

rubberToe wrote:

Document your work experience, try to take on extra responsibilities, learn to do some things that don't result in a certificate.

And by God, don't let this profession consume your life as it seems to me some do.

documentation, extra responsibilities, and not to let one thing consume your life - these I agree with completely.........

rubberToe wrote:

Not all, but some put too much emphasis on certifications.

but the "too much emphasis on certifications" is a statement that cant be overlooked. Your statement is just too broad. People have circumstances unique to them all the time, things that you or I might not understand. But if a persons circumstances make a secondary education not an option for them, why shouldn't they put all the emphasis they can into the area that is an option for them (like certifications). The key thing is that they are learning, they are setting and reaching goals for themselves, not to mention that they are in essence documenting their progress and able to use them as leverage for more money if they apply it correctly. We all want to make more money, no matter what level of education we are at as individuals.

I agree that the ideal path to success is degree, certs, and experience. Its a formula that will open more doors than any other combination, but it doesn't mean that doors cant be opened with other methods. I think a degree is a wonderful thing, coming from someone who has taken college courses, and who has studied for certifications.

In a structured school environment you are told what to study, when you need to study (be in class at this time; read these chapters before the next class ect)....... but when you self study for certifications, you are responsible for everything you learn. If they choose to skim a chapter, or take a night off, there is no one along the way to call them out on it. This fact alone is a reason to applaud people who put forth the effort and complete their certifications without being led by someone else. That cant be overlooked. I am not saying that that makes their education methods any better than yours, but I think you are under-appreciating what it means to go through that process over and over again.

One more thing.......similar to the argument that was in the last paragraph....people in IT have a tendency to discount people with certs but no experience. Obviously their resume has less value than someone with the same cert but who also has experience, but don't discount how hard it is for someone to learn these things without working on it everyday.

rubberToe

Skprune -

I don't know how many times to reiterate this, I just believe it would be in someones best interest if they can go that route. That is my opinion and am sorry you feel offended as well as others who say something to the effect that those who aren't consistently keeping on top of certs are just lazy to keep up with technology. I then mentioned I have been working on more advanced aspects that I believed were important to those who did any type tech work yet aren't included in any certification but I imagine real soon that will change.

I'm trying to make the point to those that one who get's a Technology education is in a better position than say those who have an A+, CCNA, MCP etc. Certifications are not a substitute for an BS in IT / CS but merely equivalents to some of the components.

But please speak for yourself instead of the collective. Also, I'm not speaking about college in general rather an IT or CS vs certification if the education is an option to take it.

no one's arguing that college can be great

I'll be returning to school for my BS in comp sci

Good luck with the BS in CS because it is difficult. Start digesting on procedural and object oriented programming, recursion, algorithms and data structures and get ready for cryptography. In a web development class we used 7 different languages alone that semester.

skrpune

rubberToe wrote:

Skprune -

I don't know how many times to reiterate this, I just believe it would be in someones best interest if they can go that route. That is my opinion and am sorry you feel offended as well as others who say something to the effect that those who aren't consistently keeping on top of certs are just lazy to keep up with technology. I then mentioned I have been working on more advanced aspects that I believed were important to those who did any type tech work yet aren't included in any certification but I imagine real soon that will change.

I'm trying to make the point to those that one who get's a Technology education is in a better position than say those who have an A+, CCNA, MCP etc. Certifications are not a substitute for an BS in IT / CS but merely equivalents to some of the components.

But please speak for yourself instead of the collective. Also, I'm not speaking about college in general rather an IT or CS vs certification if the education is an option to take it.

we'll just have to agree to disagree. I just think that it's not a "one size fits all" situation. I'm not trying to convince anyone that certs are more valuable than a degree in IT/CS, nor vice versa. I will stop speaking for "the collective" (didn't realize I was though), but I think you should also realize that you are not speaking for all either.

no one's arguing that college can be great

that actually was a typo - I meant to say "no one's arguing that college CAN'T be great..."

rubberToe wrote:

I'll be returning to school for my BS in comp sci

Good luck with the BS in CS because it is difficult. Start digesting on procedural and object oriented programming, recursion, algorithms and data structures and get ready for cryptography. In a web development class we used 7 different languages alone that semester.

Thanks. I'm excited for it, I've been wanting to go back to school for about a decade. But I'm not scared at the difficulty level - I actually welcome it. Not to be all braggy, but I consider myself a very intelligent woman so I'm up for the challenge and I am very keen on being challenged mentally again. (I was thiiiiiis close to going into a phd program for geology - got accepted into a program but life happened and I ended up not going - so my brain has been starving ever since!) Besides, if it were easy, then *everyone* would be doing it and it would make it less valuable, no? Depending on how the first couple of intro classes go, I might switch tracks over to the Masters program. But I'd like to dip my toes in the proverbial IT pool first before I dive on into a masters.

dynamik

This is just going in circles. I'm going to summarize why I think this has become one of the more absurd threads on the certs vs. degrees subject I've seen.

You led us to believe that you wanted to have a genuine dialog about the current state of certifications. I'm not sure if you just didn't hear what you wanted to hear or what, but for whatever reason, you went on the defensive. I've been nothing but courteous and polite to you, yet you tell me to take it easy simply because I responded to you. Your attitude and responses have been similar to other members.

You make a lot of sweeping, often baseless, generalizations and assumptions, and you take a lot of our statements out of context. You think that because something worked for you, that is the way that it has to be done (or at least, the best way). To me, that seems narrow-minded and arrogant, especially considering that you seem to have only recently started your career and lack the authority to backup your claims.

On top of that, you haven't even obtained any certifications. You're not going to appreciate the breadth or depth of material covered by looking at a list of objectives, nor are you in a position to evaluate whether they have opened any doors for you, and consequently, your opinion is in no way objective.

You seem to want to head right into the advanced topics without developing a solid foundation. What good are you going to as a systems administrator if you can perform crash **** analyses (which is hopefully going to be an infrequently occurring task) if you can't carry out day-to-day MCSE-level tasks. I think you would be making things extremely difficult on yourself by going that route, but that choice is up to you.

I'm not trying to be rude, but why are you here? That's a genuine question. This is a certification forum. If that's not your cup of tea, go someplace where there are people with similar interests. You took a shot at me for my ten posts per day average. Apparently there are better ways I can be spending my time. What can be said for the person who just trolls the forums?

I have no interest in continuing this debate with you since you clearly only want to defend your position in lieu of engaging in any genuine discussion. I welcome differing viewpoints and perspectives, and I think it's unfortunate that this discussion took this turn. This could have potentially been a good discussion.

rubberToe

Dynamik wrote:

This is just going in circles.

Agreed.

Dynamik wrote:

You led us to believe that you wanted to have a genuine dialog about the current state of certifications.

Instead of discussing the points raised by the author you tried to discredit him as a whiny person. To me you seemed standoffish and closed mined as if right away "oh this guy is attacking certs." Which I thought I clarified in my original post.

Your first post:

Dynamik wrote:

I started to make a point-by-point response, but there's just too many holes in his arguments. He has a few valid points, but overall, it's very weak.

Dynamik wrote:

You make a lot of sweeping, often baseless, generalizations and assumptions, and you take a lot of our statements out of context.

And you're not guilty of this here?

Dynamik wrote:

This guy seems to be bent out of shape because he isn't treated like god like when he had his NT 3.51 certifications.

And here:

Dynamik wrote:

Lots of people here do. If IT is too much for him to keep up with, he should look for something else. The more successful people here are in IT because they enjoy learning, so it really isn't the burden he makes it out to be. I'd rather lab some Cisco stuff or play with my VMs than watch American Idol or Survivor.

You assume he is lazy and not irritated. Things have changed and therefore you should have glossed over that statement.

The reality of the matter was he had to take 7 tests, 3 times in 4 years because Microsoft hadn't yet streamlined the upgrade and as well he should be upset.

And sorry buddy but people have other responsibilities in life than solely focusing on having to take that many tests.

Dynamik wrote:

You seem to want to head right into the advanced topics without developing a solid foundation.

I'm pretty sure I did that in college, applied the knowledge in the projects associated with the courses as well.

Dynamik wrote:

What good are you going to as a systems administrator if you can perform crash **** analyses (which is hopefully going to be an infrequently occurring task) if you can't carry out day-to-day MCSE-level tasks.

Sure, I'm not certified but I'm typing from Win2K3 right now which is a DC and DNS is configured. I'm putting to use knowledge in my home network. I'm also playing with WSUS and looking at other enterprise technologies. Powershell / WMI is great for automation. But you know all that stuff already. I'm still deciding on a career path and it's not necessarily working with Micro$haft products. So I have yet to start any certifications until I am ready. Not wasting my time if I can possibly be the Linux admin for the backend.
That statement is equivalent to saying a mechanic cannot fix a car without knowing how to work the interior accessories! You are telling me the OS architects need MCSE's? Please explain to me how the two are remotely related. Crash **** analysis has to do with Windows architecture and analyzing function calls in the stack.

If you investigated those links I supplied you could have learned a little about it and realized that you don't need the depth to find an end to the means as WinDB or MS OCA does the hard work. You said you spend all your time learning, why do you say this stuff is too advanced without looking into it?

Dynamik wrote:

I think you would be making things extremely difficult on yourself by going that route, but that choice is up to you.

Without industry experience, or technology education, and just a Knowledge+ cert what qualifies you to assume this about me?

Dynamik wrote:

What can be said for the person who just trolls the forums?

Take a look at yourself buddy, 21 months almost 7000 posts. Seems you spend quite a bit of time here.

Dynamik wrote:

You think that because something worked for you, that is the way that it has to be done (or at least, the best way)

It's my opinion that optimally a technology education is a solid base to start a career and then solidify it with certifications, your opinion is they are equivalent. I disagree. You shouldn't personally attack me for having an opinion.

Dynamik wrote:

To me, that seems narrow-minded and arrogant, especially considering that you seem to have only recently started your career and lack the authority to backup your claims.
On top of that, you haven't even obtained any certifications.

Both my employers did not ask for any certification, isn't ultimately that what counts is their characterization of my knowledge and skills based on the interviews with HR, Systems Administrator, Database Manager, and Head of Technology? They seem to think I'm qualified, I wouldn't be in the door without my education and the projects I have worked on during that education and the experience gained from my previous employment at a consulting firm.

Dynamik wrote:

Seriously, how could certs NOT be vendor-centric?

Here's an idea, something you have yet to supply:
Instead of taking into consideration the fact could be a base certification say for networking overseen by ISO for instance and just leave the vendors to certify in the usage and configuration of their products OR have ISO oversee the theory portion of each vendors certification.

That may be an idea, how about adding your ideas instead of instantly dispelling the possibility.

The author was trying raise questions which he will answer in a followup article.

Don't you think the theory portion can be standardized or is that too far fetched?

Dynamik wrote:

I have no interest in continuing this debate with you since you clearly only want to defend your position in lieu of engaging in any genuine discussion

Where have you contributed anything of substance?

Your chance will be after the second article comes out.

jnwdmb

rubberToe wrote:

Your chance will be after the second article comes out.

That article was actually written on Mar 14, 2008. the 2nd article was written on Mar 21, 2008, and the third installment was written on Mar 28, 2008.

Here is the link to the authors archive :

http://www.informit.com/authors/bio.aspx?a=da2f1b94-641f-40fd-b5c8-4f98c815ea05

I know that I only have a few certifications, and no degree, but I found it pretty easy to locate the archives. Must be luck on my part, either that or the InformIT website was smart enough to anticipate that a bunch of uneducated certified people would be interested in it and conveniently had a date for the article and a link to the authors archives at the top of the page right below the title. I guess even a blind squirrel finds a nut from time to time huh?

skrpune

rubberToe wrote:

The reality of the matter was he had to take 7 tests, 3 times in 4 years because Microsoft hadn't yet streamlined the upgrade and as well he should be upset.

And sorry buddy but people have other responsibilities in life than solely focusing on having to take that many tests.

I have a serious question: what does what the author went through several years ago have to do with the "current state of IT Certifications," which is what this thread is titled? I'm not trying to be snarky...just seriously wondering what his experience from many years ago has to do with the here & now. If we're talking about the current state of IT certifications, then let's talk about the current state & not how disorganized Microsoft was or wasn't back then. They've been pretty good with upgrade paths for certs since then from what I can tell, even announcing when upgrade paths are set to expire.

rubberToe wrote:

Here's an idea, something you have yet to supply:
Instead of taking into consideration the fact could be a base certification say for networking overseen by ISO for instance and just leave the vendors to certify in the usage and configuration of their products OR have ISO oversee the theory portion of each vendors certification.

That may be an idea, how about adding your ideas instead of instantly dispelling the possibility.

No need to dispel the possibility of a vendor neutral networking certification - one already exists: CompTIA's Network+. (It is a base-level networking cert, and then for those to choose to continue on in networking with Cisco hardware, CCNA is the next natural step...there's also Juniper & other "brand" specific certs you can go for.) CompTIA has more vendor-neutral certifications for other topics, and I'm certain there are other 'brands' vendor-neutral certs for other topics as well.

jnwdmb

skrpune wrote:

I have a serious question: what does what the author went through several years ago have to do with the "current state of IT Certifications," which is what this thread is titled? I'm not trying to be snarky...just seriously wondering what his experience from many years ago has to do with the here & now. If we're talking about the current state of IT certifications, then let's talk about the current state & not how disorganized Microsoft was or wasn't back then. They've been pretty good with upgrade paths for certs since then from what I can tell, even announcing when upgrade paths are set to expire.




No need to dispel the possibility of a vendor neutral networking certification - one already exists: CompTIA's Network+. (It is a base-level networking cert, and then for those to choose to continue on in networking with Cisco hardware, CCNA is the next natural step...there's also Juniper & other "brand" specific certs you can go for.) CompTIA has more vendor-neutral certifications for other topics, and I'm certain there are other 'brands' vendor-neutral certs for other topics as well.

I was just going to point out CompTIA .....beat me to the punch Skrpune. And to top it off you make another great point on several year old tests being relevant to the "current state of IT certifications" ...... so just to clarify, the two most opinionated people on this subject, who by the way are very confident in their opinions on the matter, and will not be swayed, are a guy who hasn't taken a certification in close to a decade and another gentlemen who has never taken a certification test.....hmmmmm.......ok, I admit it, they are surely the most informed on the subject, how dare we challenge their bold statements?

rubberToe

jnwdmb wrote:

I know that I only have a few certifications, and no degree, but I found it pretty easy to locate the archives. Must be luck on my part, either that or the InformIT website was smart enough to anticipate that a bunch of uneducated certified people would be interested in it and conveniently had a date for the article and a link to the authors archives at the top of the page right below the title. I guess even a blind squirrel finds a nut from time to time huh?

Guilty as charged. Of course you would throw that in there about certifications and degrees instead of just pointing out the article was dated. You get a gold star.

skrpune wrote:

I have a serious question: what does what the author went through several years ago have to do with the "current state of IT Certifications," which is what this thread is titled?

Again directed at Dynamik for a comment made in a previous post, threads don't always stay on point and this one derailed about the 10th post.

jnwdmb wrote:

and another gentlemen who has never taken a certification test.....hmmmmm.......ok, I admit it

This is in relationship to the IT industry and getting a job. Not just about standardizing material across the vendor tests.

So it doesn't matter whether I have certifications or not because apparently my employer who is the ultimate judge feels I have the necessary knowledge to perform the duties of the position. How did I get the interview without certs?

I guess I learned my lesson. Get certifications for people to take you seriously in a certification forum.

msteinhilber

Wow... so allow me to summarize for those of you who don't want to read through the same reiterations just worded slightly different.

rubberToe = education. education. education. screw certs.

everybody else = various combinations of education + experience + certifications = good

And I agree with the majority here that I know for fact rubberToe will conjure up another reiteration of the same to. The author of the article is clearly upset about having had to take so many exams to recertify. Deal with it, that's life, you CHOOSE to certify, you KNEW what was required up front. Furthermore, they should have been able to ascertain that certification being new at that time would likely evolve. Surely if the author is using rubberToe's logic they certainly did not need to recertify, and thats logic I do not dispute, once he had been gotten his foot in the door working with the software would they really need to recertify? Doubtful, but again it was his CHOICE to recertify.

I also agree with the comment dynamik made:

THIS IS A CERTIFICATION FORUM

And for the record rubberToe, I haven't been around these forums for as long as many of the people here but I have witnessed far more posts of substance from dynamik than I have seen come from you. But I suppose that must be a bad thing... because per your standards he obviously spends way too much time on these forums with his almost 7000 posts in 21 months... all of which are of course entirely troll material... right.

apena7

Face it, you can't get your foot in the IT door without certifications or degree. Even entry level positions require some type of education and/or two years of experience.

If you have years of experience, then you're ahead of the rest of us.
The majority of us have to fight our way to the top and maintain the edge over the next guy. We do this by getting degrees & certs.

If you believe that certs measure your knowledge -- good for you.
If you believe certs are nothing but pieces of paper -- good for you.

The Current State of IT Certifications = Certs are here to stay.

skrpune

rubberToe wrote:

skrpune wrote:

I have a serious question: what does what the author went through several years ago have to do with the "current state of IT Certifications," which is what this thread is titled?

Again directed at Dynamik for a comment made in a previous post, threads don't always stay on point and this one derailed about the 10th post.

Okay, I have to admit this made me giggle a little bit...if you go back to page 1 of the thread and count down the posts, the 10th post is from RubberToe...:) Not trying to pick on ya, but that was just too funny to let slide without comment!

But ahem, seriously...I still don't get what this guy went through with upgrading his certs many years ago has to do with the current state of IT. I really don't see why it merits being mentioned in his article about the value of IT certs now. I think this article is highly dramatized and I really think he's making a battle between certs & education where there is none. He has some good points, but they're largely overshadowed by his other statements that I just find too full of holes. I judge an article by its whole contents, and if some of it smells like poo to me, then that stank rubs off on the rest of it!:D

rubberToe wrote:

This is in relationship to the IT industry and getting a job. Not just about standardizing material across the vendor tests. So it doesn't matter whether I have certifications or not because apparently my employer who is the ultimate judge feels I have the necessary knowledge to perform the duties of the position.

No offense, but no one's safe from being axed in this economy, and I'm saying this from a "good place" not out of contempt - it's in your best interest to look beyond what your current employer current requires, and it's a good idea to try to make sure you've got more than the average joe or jill in your office so you can hopefully escape the axe..and so that if you are laid off, you have more ammo than the legions of other talented educated and certified people who will be your competition for jobs.

rubberToe

msteinhilber wrote:

rubberToe = education. education. education. screw certs.

Read the first post. Thanks for putting words in my mouth.

Why get certs just to do it? I will get the right ones when the time is right. I didn't need them to get a job and don't need them to feel good or for bragging rights. My university didn't recommend them even though we worked with cisco products and the A+ materials for a hardware course. I even asked my professor, didn't think twice because I was focused on a degree and then a job.

I got my eduction to get a job and will get certs for the technology in which I build my career around.

More than likely it will be RHCE or the LPIs because the company I took a job with incorporates that into their infrastructure but for now I'm on MS detail. I suppose you think I should have just racked up all the vendors even though I ultimately will work with no more than 2.

I'm involved in a local Linux Users Group as well.

Well, had fun beating the dead horse. I'm sure people can come be amused.

skrpune wrote:

Okay, I have to admit this made me giggle a little bit...if you go back to page 1 of the thread and count down the posts, the 10th post is from RubberToe...

Surprised you took the time to verify that. I guess "about" doesn't factor in.

apena7 wrote:

The majority of us have to fight our way to the top and maintain the edge over the next guy. We do this by getting degrees & certs.

I completely agree, but allow me to suggest a third method: Take on extra responsibilities and work on plenty of projects while documenting all of it. I guess that would be less relevant to Help Desk and Support positions

msteinhilber

rubberToe wrote:

Why get certs just to do it? Well, because I have an education.

Nobody here has said lets get certs just to get a cert, that would be stupid. Education is important, nobody will dispute that hopefully. I value education as well as I am under a year away from completing my B.S. in Technology Management and will be continuing forward with a Masters program as well to hopefully further maximize my marketability.

rubberToe wrote:

I will get the right ones when the time is right. I didn't need them to get a job and don't need them to feel good or for bragging rights.

I can agree with and relate to this. I didn't have any certifications nor need any to get my current job. I am actively seeking several certifications now to help transition into an area which sparks my interest more. But one point of view that a lot of individuals on this forum are pointing out is it can be difficult to obtain a job in IT with strictly an education. It certainly can be done, you have - I have, but many places simply have so many applicants with education and certifications or education and experience or whatever combination of the two that those with just education can easily be weeded out.

rubberToe wrote:

I suppose you think I should have just racked up all the vendors even though I ultimately will work with no more than 2.

Whose putting words in whose mouth now Racking up certifications for the sake of having them is pointless and only contributes to some of the issues with certifications being devalued somewhat. Because you get people who hold certifications that do not work with the content covered on a regular basis can make others who hold the certification look bad if interviewed for a position involving the technology and asked technical questions about it. I am hopefully nearing an offer with an organization to do work with voice technology using Cisco gear and as part of the program they train the new hires and certify them (CCNA, CCNA: Voice, CCNP, CCVP) for 18 months and gradually expose them to the real world. I will likely pursue some additional certifications if I am given an offer for this job such as the CCSP because the employer likes their consultants to have another area of specialization and I am also interested in security. Since I will have the opportunity to work with all of these technologies, the certifications make sense. From the employers perspective, they like to have their employees certified and pay for recertification as it helps keep the employees knowledge fresh. Am I goign to go out and pursue the MCSE, RHCE or other certifications? Absolutely not, it would be an incredible waste of effort and time on my part and what good could come from such certifications several years down the road if I have a few years of experience working with Cisco gear and some Cisco certs?

rubberToe wrote:

I completely agree, but allow me to suggest a third method: Take on extra responsibilities and work on plenty of projects while documenting all of it. I guess that would be less relevant to Help Desk and Support positions

Something we can agree on as well As I mentioned my example of this in my post on page 1, in fact it is largely due to these facts that I have made it as far along in the interview process as I have for the Cisco voice opportunity.

skrpune

rubberToe wrote:

skrpune wrote:

Okay, I have to admit this made me giggle a little bit...if you go back to page 1 of the thread and count down the posts, the 10th post is from RubberToe...

Surprised you took the time to verify that. I guess "about" doesn't factor in.

Lighten up! I was joking and just trying to bring some levity to the thread. I am smart enough to get what "about" means, no need to be all snarky about it. I reviewed the first page of the thread because, rather than just calling out an unfounded "BS!", I wanted to actually see if there was a derailing anywhere within "about" the first 10 posts, and seriously, there's no derailment there. We've all been on topic, responding to the points brought up by the author and responding to points brought up by other posters. But perhaps you and I just have different definitions of "derail" and "about." Again, I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree then.

mikej412

rubberToe wrote:

Dynamik wrote:

What can be said for the person who just trolls the forums?

Take a look at yourself buddy, 21 months almost 7000 posts. Seems you spend quite a bit of time here.

I'm pretty sure a lot of the regulars here decided at least 6000 posts ago that Dynamik wasn't a troll.

And in my case, it only took about 50 posts by you before I started wondering if you were.

dynamik

rubberToe wrote:

I guess that would be less relevant to Help Desk and Support positions

Look, I don't mind you taking shots at me. In fact, I think it's adorable. Especially when you do things like post "enlightening" links to products I already own, like the Sysinternals videos.

What I don't appreciate, is the jabs at people trying to get their foot in the door or working entry-level positions. The reason I spend so much time here is that people with attitudes like yours either get banned or move on because they're poorly received. This is a great community that is built on encourage and sharing knowledge. If you're just here to pound your chest over your accomplishments and belittle others, go find a better outlet for that. Go start a blog or something.

I'll even save you the time of having to dissect this and refute it point-by-point: You're a better man than me in every conceivable way. I lack your knowledge, wisdom, foresight, technology-based formal education, etc., etc. In fact, I am honored that you have even taken the time to interact with me at all. There, all better?

rubberToe

mikej412 wrote:

And in my case, it only took about 50 posts by you before I started wondering if you were.

Mike I started this thread. That response was to invoke an emotional response from me which by definition constitutes actions of a troll as well as your comment.

Thanks for stopping by to post that useless comment.

I guess I wasn't specific enough, I wanted to understand why some people chose to get the certifications they have and what they thought about certifications in relation to the industry.

Instead what happened was it turned out to be a war on education vs. certification. I on one hand trying substantiate the value to a person of an education in technology as a proper foundation for someone at a point in their life to take that road and not just go out for certifications as some people seem to indicate as an equivalent. By no means am I saying that a person cannot make a career change by becoming certified. I just don't want people to read this and say "screw this" I won't go to college because all I need to do is get a couple of certs real quick to get that same job. In essence, I don't want people short changing themselves.

“Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new.”
--Albert Einstein

I definitely learned quite a bit from trying to get a good thread going which failed miserably.

Mishra

rubberToe wrote:

I am an advocate of education, besides it was in reply to Dynamik. It was not meant to be condescending as you seem to have taken it.

All I'm saying is education provides a knowledge base which can easily be used to learn and implement any vendor technology. I'm for this approach. Certifications come into play as you ride down the career path.

Everyone learns differently. There is no broad/correct definition.

rubberToe wrote:

Document your work experience, try to take on extra responsibilities, learn to do some things that don't result in a certificate.

I agree. Dont base every single thing you do on a certification. Although I doubt many do this.

rubberToe wrote:

And by God, don't let this profession consume your life as it seems to me some do.

Everyone enjoys things differently. There is no broad/correct definition.

rubberToe wrote:

Not all, but some put too much emphasis on certifications.

This is just too broad to comment on.

Lizano

rubberToe wrote:

I just don't want people to read this and say "screw this" I won't go to college because all I need to do is get a couple of certs real quick to get that same job. In essence, I don't want people short changing themselves.

Well mate, I can tell you this, In the time I've been here, I have always seen the senior forum members always, always recommend one thing when newbies come in and ask for advice: The more education, the better. That obviously includes college.
I understand your point, and you are right, there are some people out there that are just too lazy to go to college, and even too lazy to self-study for a cert, and they figure they can just use a brain ****, get a job, and survive that way. But on the other hand, there are many people out there, and some of them in this forum, that are great learners, they challenge themselves, they grow because they read, and do there homework. Some even have their own equipment solely for testing purposes. And they become great professionals...which at the end of the day is what we all trying to become...

skrpune

Lizano wrote:

rubberToe wrote:

I just don't want people to read this and say "screw this" I won't go to college because all I need to do is get a couple of certs real quick to get that same job. In essence, I don't want people short changing themselves.

Well mate, I can tell you this, In the time I've been here, I have always seen the senior forum members always, always recommend one thing when newbies come in and ask for advice: The more education, the better. That obviously includes college.
I understand your point, and you are right, there are some people out there that are just too lazy to go to college, and even too lazy to self-study for a cert, and they figure they can just use a brain ****, get a job, and survive that way. But on the other hand, there are many people out there, and some of them in this forum, that are great learners, they challenge themselves, they grow because they read, and do there homework. Some even have their own equipment solely for testing purposes. And they become great professionals...which at the end of the day is what we all trying to become...

+1. Well put.

No one's denying that education can be a great addition to someone's knowledge set or resume/CV. But since this is a certification forum, it's not unexpected that there would be a majority of people encouraging others to get some certifications, either in addition to or as an alternative to or a precursor to education. In this economy (and even if the economy was fine and dandy), it's a good idea to try to do whatever you can to make yourself more marketable and a more appealing candidate than your competition out there and certs can help add to that package you can offer a potential or current employer. (On that note, anyone else keep getting emails from PrepLogic saying you need to certify to save your job in 2009? )

In general, you can do a lot with just certs in certain areas, but a degree may be required for advancement or for entry into other areas and degrees are great to have no matter what - they certainly don't hurt and can definitely help. However, the most important thing is that the person engage themselves in their work & learning and try to go above & beyond in whatever they do, and that's not something that's mutually exclusive to those who are certified or those who are educated. I think we can all agree on that.

jnwdmb

rubberToe wrote:

I guess I wasn't specific enough, I wanted to understand why some people chose to get the certifications they have and what they thought about certifications in relation to the industry

I am sorry, but I never got the impression from your previous posts/statements/opinions that this is what you are seeking. I believe that I do have an answer to this question.

Why do people get certifications? Opinion on certifications in relation to the industry?

I am pursuing certifications for these main reasons:

I like to learn things.
I enjoy challenging myself.
I like to increase my knowledge in areas that I am planning on utilizing in my future.
I could read books and do labs, and never take a test, but why obtain the knowledge and not take the test, when it is a simple way to verify to employers that I really know the stuff.
I understand that you have never taken a certification test, but do you remember the sense of accomplishment you had when you finally graduated with your degree? Certifications, though on a smaller scale, are an accomplishment.
It takes a significant amount of hard work and effort to pass most of them, especially if its in an area that you had a weak base knowledge on previously.

Certifications show a base knowledge in a subject area. They also show that a person has the ability to understand the concepts they studied.

Not to mention that nearly every job posting I see now-a-days lists preferred certs for the position, whether they prefer a degree or not. This tells me that most potential employers like Certifications. I want employers to like me.

I don't know how much simpler I can explain it. I hope you have a better understanding of how I view certifications and their benefits in the current market.

Webmaster

CCIEWANNABE wrote:

close, but i'll take JDMurray's equation one step further to the ultimate setup:

(degree + experience + certs + who you know + TOP SECRET CLEARANCE) * Luck = Ultimate career opportunity, i.e. No one can touch you

There's one more missing variable and this very topic became a good example, well of the lack there of: people skills, which includes acting like a professional...

Please discuss topics, not other posters.

rubberToe wrote:

Thanks for stopping by to post that useless comment.

You too.