Changes a-coming! Very soon!

GT-Rob

For starters, it looks like they are bringing the verbal questions to all centers (not just China), as early as next month. 4 or 5 open questions on topics covered by the blueprint, manually graded by the person asking you them. And if you get them wrong, you FAIL your exam, regardless of your score on the lab.

Also, the written exam will be losing its "back" feature, and will be like the rest of the exams where you are unable to review your questions later.

hanges to CCIE Lab and Written Exam Question Format and Scoring

Effective February 1, 2009, Cisco will introduce a new type of question format to CCIE Routing and Switching lab exams. In addition to the live configuration scenarios, candidates will be asked a series of four or five open-ended questions, drawn from a pool of questions based on the material covered on the lab blueprint. No new topics are being added. The exams are not been increased in difficulty and the well-prepared candidate should have no trouble answering the questions. The length of the exam will remain eight hours. Candidates will need to achieve a passing score on both the open-ended questions and the lab portion in order to pass the lab and become certified. Other CCIE tracks will change over the next year, with exact dates announced in advance.

I think both of these are a step in the right direction.

Your thoughts?

mikej412

drawn from a pool of questions

Hopefully they'll make that pool of questions large enough and change them often enough to make a difference. Or at least record the verbal part -- so they can go back and track down the people who answered the same questions the same way -- word for word.

The real solution would be to create a larger pool of Lab Exams and change them more often.

And I don't mind losing the mark and review on the written. I found it confusing and distracting on my first CCIE Written exam and had to double check that I was was taking the correct exam. I think I tried a previous button once on my 2nd CCIE Written Exam just to see if it worked. I never tried the review at the end.

nel

Sounds a step in the right direction to me. But what happens if you explain your answer, and its correct, but you explain it differently from there "correct answer"?

Will the person at the test centre be qualified enough to have knowledge of the question and what the answer should be? or will it just someone who works there?

mikej412

I wish they'd clearly state the purpose for the need to add the verbal "open ended questions."

If you ask someone "Multicast -- what do you know?" -- you can tell a lot about the persons English language communications and technical ability by their answer. Under pressure they may stumble over a point or two, but just following their "train of thought" I'm sure the proctors will correctly evaluate whatever it is they may be trying to evaluate.

But if someone barely seems to know only the basics and can only spit out a couple of factoids plus 5 or 6 specific configurations that are very familiar to the Proctors -- at that point I don't think it really matters how perfect their English was. If the same happens on a couple more topics and the candidate fails -- then I think verbal open ended questions have served a good purpose.

But I'm sure at some point someone somewhere will come up with some "practice responses" for the various topics and those will be added to some peoples lab preparation. And hopefully the proctors will eventually recognize that and get the candidate off their prepared speech by asking another more specific question.

I do feel sorry for the people who can do the job and really know the topics and can understand English -- but aren't fluent or confident with their English speaking.

I'm thinking I may dig out the old Cisco Press CCIE Written Exam Flash Cards before my next Lab attempt. I would say "and dust off Doyle" -- but my Doyle volumes are right next to me and they aren't dusty.

rossonieri#1

nel wrote

Sounds a step in the right direction to me. But what happens if you explain your answer, and its correct, but you explain it differently from there "correct answer"?

yup. a little bit relativity here
i'm pretty sure that all the proctor are well technically qualified - no doubt about it,
but in the real world daily life - sometimes its hard enough to make 2 persons see the same view.

mike wrote

I do feel sorry for the people who can do the job and really know the topics and can understand English -- but aren't fluent or confident with their English speaking.

thanking you for understand this language barrier

no offense folks,
just my 2c

cheers.

APA

I agree with it being a step in the right direction...

Just one more hill to climb to make it all the more worthwhile when you've passed!

nel

rossonieri#1 wrote: »

nel wrote


yup. a little bit relativity here
i'm pretty sure that all the proctor are well technically qualified - no doubt about it,
but in the real world daily life - sometimes its hard enough to make 2 persons see the same view.

mike wrote


thanking you for understand this language barrier

no offense folks,
just my 2c

cheers.

ahh didnt realise it was the lab proctors who would be doing it. ignore me!!

GT-Rob

I think they are going to be a little forgiving on this, as it is an open ended question. I also think they will be 'mostly' basic questions, that they assume someone who can pass a CCIE lab, can easily answer.


As for the language thing, the entire lab, almost all the documentation and resources are all in english. If you don't have a good hold on english, you are going to have a hard time in there with or without these verbals. Again, I also think the interviewer is going to be forgiving on this. They are not going to mark your grammar, they just want to see if you are able to explain the purpose of a route reflector.

rossonieri#1

rob wrote,

If you don't have a good hold on english, you are going to have a hard time in there with or without these verbals.
...
They are not going to mark your grammar, they just want to see if you are able to explain the purpose of a route reflector.

confirmed

a bit out of topic, but perhaps i can share a story here if you guys dont mind

sometimes, for us (non-english speaking people) find it more difficult in speaking/listening rather than to read or write something in english.

let say, we do understand what any book/tutorial said - although sometimes we need to read them more than twice - compares to you guys in english native country. so, we are happy that any examination gives us an excuse - more time to finish an exam (approx. 15 or 30 more minutes from standard).

but, if you ask me (as if being my proctor) to explain RR,
maybe i knew what it is - how it works in my head,
but to explain it to my audience in english - this is what i have to keep learning

even worst (my personal experience) - i have this strange weakness : i cant speak/listen very well when a person (let say - a foreigner) suddenly talk to me - without prior notification - let say a person suddenly call me on my cell phone , but the strange is that it did not happen when i'm in let say a meeting/seminar (an arranged one).

that is strange right?

no offense once again,
just sharing my thought

cheers.

GT-Rob

I agree with you, its much harder to speak/listen than it is to read/write. Again, I would hope that the proctors are going to be forgiving on this, especially in test centers where english is not the first language (China, Brussels, etc).


Apparently they have been doing this in China already for a couple of months now, so it must be going alright if they are bringing it to all centers now.

networker050184

The harder it is to attain the more respected it will be is the way I look at it. I also think it is good to keep it changing to make it harder and harder to **** any portion of the process.

I think if your knowledge is up to the appropriate level a few questions will probably be one of the easier parts. I'm sure nerves will play a part in there too though.

ITdude

networker050184 wrote: »

I'm sure nerves will play a part in there too though.

You got that right!:)

mikej412

rossonieri#1 wrote: »

sometimes, for us (non-english speaking people) find it more difficult in speaking/listening rather than to read or write something in english.

It works the same way for us

When I left Berlin after 2-1/2 years there, my spoken German was probably no better than it was after my first 6 months there. But I had no problem reading the local newspaper, watching the local TV Stations, drinking the local beer, listening to the local radio stations (and rock bands), or understanding almost all that was being said around me in German.

For study purposes, reading in a foreign language may take more focus and effort and an extra "read" or two (and extra time) -- but the end result is usually the same -- well educated people who understand and can apply what they learned to real-world tasks.

kalebksp

I'm not studying for the CCIE, but I just ran across this and figured you guys would be interested in: Cisco Network Engineer: CCIE Lab: Short Answer Questions – Q&A

Basically says that the open ended questions will be computer based, not oral like the pilot program in China. Hopefully that will make it a bit easier for those whom English is not their native language.

Ahriakin

Aye that's what the proctor said at lunch last time, there's no way they could do all verbal as it'd be a 12 hour day.

mgeorge

Well I've found in some places many people are breaking the NDA and posting questions that they've been asked but its probably going to be obvious that no single person will get the same question.

I've also noticed that some of the questions are tricky in nature and its obvious they're meant to be that way.

I've come up with my own example as to this "trickiness" you might see on the new lab exam; this is not an actual question but can see how Cisco is trying to trick people under extraneous pressure and nervousness; of course this is not Cisco's intention, the questions are not hard at all.

"What is the advantage of 802.1D over 802.1W?"

Now anyone who has read a CCNA book can easily tell you that 802.1D is the older STP standard whereas 802.1W (RSTP) was designed to overcome the original 802.1D shortfall convergence time. You can however easily say that 802.1d will allow for older platform interoperability but even this is not an advantage because 802.1W includes 802.1D legacy support.

GT-Rob

I talked to my proctor at lunch, and the way it works is you will sit at your computer and it will pose a questions to you. You will then have a box to type in your answer and submit it. Once you are done it will log out of the pc, then log back in, and you will have access to the normal desktop (telnet, doc cd, etc).


The answer are read and graded by proctors, and he said they will be very easy. Anyone who has a valid chance at passing the lab, will have no problem with giving an appropriate answer. In your example george, that would be a valid answer. They are not looking for you to recite the Cisco docs to them, they are looking for you to prove you understand the technology.


And yes I can see them changing questions constantly (and hope they do). The labs take a lot of work to make big changes, so this is an easy way to make changes quickly and constantly.

jrs91

GT-Rob wrote: »

I talked to my proctor at lunch, and the way it works is you will sit at your computer and it will pose a questions to you. You will then have a box to type in your answer and submit it. Once you are done it will log out of the pc, then log back in, and you will have access to the normal desktop (telnet, doc cd, etc).


The answer are read and graded by proctors, and he said they will be very easy. Anyone who has a valid chance at passing the lab, will have no problem with giving an appropriate answer. In your example george, that would be a valid answer. They are not looking for you to recite the Cisco docs to them, they are looking for you to prove you understand the technology.

And yes I can see them changing questions constantly (and hope they do). The labs take a lot of work to make big changes, so this is an easy way to make changes quickly and constantly.

I see what you're saying about making changes more frequent, but how common is dumping of any sort on the lab exam? Do they constantly recycle the same labs? Do the internetwork expert workbooks cover all possible scenarios? If these questions are as easy as the one above, I really don't get the point. If a well prepared candidate will have no trouble with them, why bother? One would think that a poorly prepared candidate will already fail the lab...

EdTheLad

The idea behind the open ended questions is to make sure the candidate taking the lab understands the theory. Alot of guys braindump the written and never get a true understanding of the protocols.
Using the vendor labs constantly, taking a bootcamp these are ways to perfect the best practices and find out most of the tricks.
Since some guys take the lab exam multiple times, eventually they're going to pass.

An example, the exam has 4 switches, i can learn all possible configs for spanning-tree with a max topology of 4 switches without really knowing how the protocol works.The open ended question could ask something specific like "why does cisco use a proprietary destination mac address for bpdu's".
The idea is, if you prepare well you will have no problem with these questions so they can only be a good thing.
There are alot of clueless ccies out there, hopefully this will fix the problem.
Maybe future employers will respect the 25000+ digits more than the 15-25k range.

jrs91

EdTheLad wrote: »

The idea behind the open ended questions is to make sure the candidate taking the lab understands the theory. Alot of guys braindump the written and never get a true understanding of the protocols.
Using the vendor labs constantly, taking a bootcamp these are ways to perfect the best practices and find out most of the tricks.
Since some guys take the lab exam multiple times, eventually they're going to pass.

An example, the exam has 4 switches, i can learn all possible configs for spanning-tree with a max topology of 4 switches without really knowing how the protocol works.The open ended question could ask something specific like "why does cisco use a proprietary destination mac address for bpdu's".
The idea is, if you prepare well you will have no problem with these questions so they can only be a good thing.
There are alot of clueless ccies out there, hopefully this will fix the problem.
Maybe future employers will respect the 25000+ digits more than the 15-25k range.

Ah, ok. It makes sense now. Thanks for the explanation.

rossonieri#1

wow, reading this thread seems to be more interesting.

more respect to all beloved techexams members - you guys indeed trying hard to balance both the theories and the hands on perspectives.

this is what i have to keep learning and share to my fellow country-men in my local forums where i occasionally appointed as mod, lead the younger in certain ways that they should understand the underlying/overall concept instead jumping to things that they should not belong to - like the most emerging "security" word.

so basically, i agreed that this proctor graded questions to validate knowledge, and i did actually like to act/be that proctor sometimes - asking some local forum member about things that they said, what is the reasons, how things work under some apps etc - so they too can be the proctor for their junior member. this kind of things is hard enough for persons that dont balance both the theory and the hands on.

balance the proprietary and the open standard is my next target to spread

seuss_ssues

I do not keep up with tthe ccie news because at this time it is not relative to me. But are we all assuming that even in foreign countries the exam is all administered in English.

Please forgive me if this is a common fact.

rossonieri#1

@ seuss

But are we all assuming that even in foreign countries the exam is all administered in English.

i havent done any lab examination yet - so i dont have any clue for that,
but - if you were asking about any prometric/vue exam in general - yes, we have the same questions and same administration task as you are - fill in some registration form, signing the NDA, surveillance camera etc.