Microsoft's MCTS

vivek_master146

Hi all! I am interested in Windows and Web application development. ****(ASIA'S No 1 trainer) is providing training in ADO.NET,XML,ASP.NET and C#.

Should I first learn C++ thoroughly before moving on to C# and ASP.NET ?

What is the scope of .NET as compared to Java ? I know Java is platform-independent. Does it make .net inferior and less in scope in IT industry.

Are Microsoft MCTS certificate(70-528 and 536) valuable ?

UnixGuy

I worked a lot in C# .NET 2003, and attended official microsoft training for C# .NET 2003 Windows applications


my advice, yes before you start learning any programming, start with C++. You need the basics: loops, if-statements, functions, classes..

then you can jump to Object oriented programming languages like C# .NET

JDMurray

There's no reason why you can't have C# as your first programming language. If your intention is to achieve the MCTS and work as a .NET programmer, I really wouldn't bother with C++ or Java right now. As a C# programmer, you can easily go back later and learn Java if you need to. There isn't a reason to learn C/C++ unless you will be working outside of Java and .NET. And C++, C#, and Java are all object-oriented, so you aren't loosing anything OOD-wise regardless of your choice.

Slowhand

Well, since languages like C++, Java, and C# are very similar in syntax and capabilities, it's probably better to go and learn C, if you want to "start with the roots", so to speak. At least, that's the rumor, if you believe in experts.

Actually, Joel Spolsky isn't the only person I've heard this from, I work with several developers who have their PhDs in computer science that have said the very same thing, as did my own CS teacher. Of course, if you really want to dig into the nitty-gritty of software, start with assembler and go on to C, but that might be overkill unless you're planning on going to school for this stuff.

Of course, you could just start learning C# and starting with that, there's nothing wrong with beginning your journey with something current.

elaverick1981

I agree with a lot of what's been said here. Don't look on C# as an improvement over C or C++. It shares one or two aspects with it, but it's more like Java than either of these.
I would suggest going straight into C# rather than trying to learn another language as a gateway to it. In the early stages all you're likely to do is to confuse yourself.

One thing I would say though is don't expect the MCTS's to teach you a language from start to finish. My experienece of 71-505 (WinForms Applicaition development) was that it was more of a review of the new features that MS added in .NET 3.5 than any real validation of programming ability (its' possible that 70-536 is stronger in this field but I've not taken that yet).

I'd suggest downloading Visual C# 2008 Express Edition and grabbing a book from your local library and try out a few examples from there. Find out if you like programming and if you can get along with C# as a language. Once you've spent a while getting aquainted with it, then think about looking to certify the knowledge you already have

vivek_master146

Thanks for your replies but no one has answered this question:-

What is the scope of .NET as compared to Java ? I know Java is platform-independent. Does it make .net inferior and less in scope in IT industry. ?


The first language i learn was VB 6 through self-study. I loved it because it has RAD feature. We can quickly create small games, applications in VB. C# is also RAD but is it too time-consuming to write applications in C#. ? In C++ it really takes time to create applications.

How is ASP.NET for Web applications. ? Many people are recommending me to do PHP as it can run on both linux and windows server whereas asp.net requires some license. PHP is also strong language and contains more feature than ASP.

elaverick1981

vivek_master146 wrote: »

What is the scope of .NET as compared to Java ? I know Java is platform-independent. Does it make .net inferior and less in scope in IT industry. ?

.NET is potentially platform independant as well. Both .NET and Java are compiled to byte code rather than machine code and then run in Virtual machines. This means that any OS that implements the VM can run the code in its compiled form.
In Windows the interpreting of .NET is done by the .NET framework in Linux and OS X its done by Mono. One important Cavet here is that although Mono can interpret the code it doesn't have (or at least didn't last time I looked at it) any support for the presentation layer such as WinForms or WPF. Whether this puts you at a disadvantage or not depends very much on what you're trying to do with it.

The relative merits of each language is a fair heafty discussion in its own right, and a great many flame wars have started that way. I believe however that although there is some overlap between the languages in terms of implementation and syntax they are slowly starting to find their own seperate niches in the market. In terms of jobs I've just done a quick search on Monster and there are 537 jobs to do with C# and 474 related to Java, you can draw you own conclusions from that.

JDMurray

Mono is not, and never will be, a complete emulation of the .NET Framework on Windows. Several of its necessary components, such as the CryptoAPI, are under licensing restrictions from Microsoft and not available to Open Source projects. Some of the more graphically-intensive features, such as the WPF, may not the 100% portable.

Anyone considering Mono for porting a serious project from Windows to UNIX/Linux needs to understand what .NET technologies cannot be used in order to maintain 100% portability. I ran into this problem myself.

elaverick1981

JDMurray wrote: »

Mono is not, and never will be, a complete emulation of the .NET Framework on Windows.

Yeah that's true, I probably should have said that Mono provides the Virtual Machine for .NET to run and a number of equivilant methods.
Having said that we're essentially talking about the inclusion of libraries here, so its not even like the incompatabilities of ANSI C compared to C99.

Also its worth noting that although Java does work cross-platform there are still a lot of aspects you need to consider when writing for a truely cross platform environment (anything involving JNI scares me...). The fact that Mono has similar limitations doesn't necessarily make it inferior to Java. It's horses for courses.

JDMurray

elaverick1981 wrote: »

The fact that Mono has similar limitations doesn't necessarily make it inferior to Java.

I've never considered comparing Mono to Java. The JRE has been truly ported to many different environments by Sun, while Mono is just an emulation of the .NET Framework and not a true port.

If Microsoft decides one day to make a true port of .NET to UNIX/Linux to fully compete with the JRE then Mono will be instantly obsolete. That would be such a big porting job that UNIX/Linux/OS X would need to be a very signifiant part of Microsoft's future market to even consider the expense of doing the port.

vivek_master146

Thanks. But still few questions left:-

The first language i learn was VB 6 through self-study. I loved it because it has RAD feature. We can quickly create small games, applications in VB. C# is also RAD but is it too time-consuming to write applications in C#. ? In C++ it really takes time to create applications.

How is ASP.NET for Web applications. ? Many people are recommending me to do PHP as it can run on both linux and windows server whereas asp.net requires some license. PHP is also strong language and contains more feature than ASP.

JDMurray

vivek_master146 wrote: »

The first language i learn was VB 6 through self-study. I loved it because it has RAD feature. We can quickly create small games, applications in VB. C# is also RAD but is it too time-consuming to write applications in C#. ? In C++ it really takes time to create applications.

The reason why I left C++ was that it took a lone programmer (me) far too long to create a typical Windows app using C++ than it did using VB3/4/5/6. If you really like VB6, I would suggest that you try Visual Basic 2008 Express Edition. You'll still learn the .NET Framework while creating more functionality with less code than you can with C#.

vivek_master146 wrote: »

How is ASP.NET for Web applications. ? Many people are recommending me to do PHP as it can run on both linux and windows server whereas asp.net requires some license. PHP is also strong language and contains more feature than ASP.

ASP.NET is only for Web applications, be they WebForms or Web services. ASP.NET with C# is the hot ticket in the job market right now (with 2-5 years of professional experience developing enterprise-class distributed Web sites with an SQL Server 2005 back end). Many businesses prefer LAMP servers using PHP (and Drupal, Joomla, WordPress, etc.) because the software is free and there are no licensing fees to pay. So you basically have the choice of ".NET" or "not .NET" for you career path.

vivek_master146

Which is better for Window Apps. ?

Visual Basic 2008 or C#.

As you said, in india there are many jobs for C# and asp.net.

In India the salary is really low . PC technician gets around US $ 225 Per month and a fresher software programmer gets around US $ 450 P.m.

elaverick1981

vivek_master146 wrote: »

Which is better for Window Apps. ?

Visual Basic 2008 or C#.

There's not a lot of difference quite frankly. VB.NET 2008 looks a good deal like VC#. Most of the methods are called the same thing and they can access all the same features as each other. Besides which they both compile to exactly the same intermediate byte code. There is still some pre-existing snobbery regarding VB.NET, but it all depends on what the job you go for is looking for.
If a line doesn't look complete without a semi colon at the end then you're probably a C# programmer... otherwise it'll be VB.NET you want

JDMurray

My advice is to start learning whatever the employers are currently asking for. After you get a good job, you can play with other things that won't earn you any money.

And both C# and VB2008 are good for Windows applications. There are only slight differences in the language syntax and how they interface with Visual Studio 2008 and the .NET Framework.

vivek_master146

I am good at maths but not very good. In programming field do i need very strong mathematics ?

JDMurray

vivek_master146 wrote: »

I am good at maths but not very good. In programming field do i need very strong mathhematics ?

I've been making a living as a software engineer for 25 years and I'm not very proficient at doing math either. Mathematics is only a tool used in some types of programming. There are many types of programming that only use simple arithmetic. When a large business needs math performed they usually hire a mathematician, or have other programmers (accountants, economists, etc.) that can do it. If all programming required superior math skills then you would see very few Web site developers today.