Job Offer

skrpune

After MANY months of looking, I finally got a job offer yesterday. It's helpdesk/tech support work for the business school arm of a university, and it seems like a very laid back environment and a great management team. But I'm not so sure I'm going to accept it because of some of the yo-yo-ing they put me through the past few days and the hourly rate offer, so I'm looking for some feedback/advice.

Here's the background and some details. (I apologize in advance for a very long winded post, but to begin with brevity is not my strongsuit, and this has been a wacky ride that they've sent me on so there's quite a bit of info to share in order to get the full story across.)

I responded to an ad for part time level one helpdesk/tech support work, and a couple weeks later did a phone interview. It went really well. It was through a staffing company that provides basically all the non-faculty/upper level staff positions for the university. So I realize that their goal is to get me as cheaply as possible, because they get whatever "extra" money they don't pay me. During the phone interview, I was pressed for what my minimum hourly rate would be. I hate to answer these questions and I danced around it as much as I could, but it was one of those situations where I could tell that the interview would be dead in the water if I didn't give some sort of response other than the diplomatic "I'm sure we could come to an agreement on a fair wage" BS, so I said "midteens." She kept on pressing and pressing for a dollar figure and wouldn't take no for an answer, sigh. So I said that without knowing any details about the position or what it entails, the absolutely lowest I would leave the house for would be $13-15/hr for the level one position. Sigh. I know, I broke the cardinal rule and said a number and I've screwed myself with it.

Anywho, I passed the interview and got brought in for a technical interview. It was my first, and I had no idea what to expect. I met with the two IT managers for the business school, and when we all sat down they asked me if I wanted to interview for level one or level two. I said that I was under the impression that part time was only level one and that only full time was level two, and since I can only work part time I thought I was brought in for level one. They said that in reviewing my resume & skills & experience (one year as a tech, with a few years of quasi-technical work in offices before that, and with an A+/Network+/MCTS Vista & pursing a degree & my MCSA), they thought I'd be a better fit for level two and could basically make an exception to the rule that level two's are only full time. They showed me the job descriptions for level one vs level two and I perused them before I made my decision. One thing that certainly caught my eye (which I don't think they realized they showed me) was that the pay rates were on the job detail sheets: $10-12/hr for level one and $14-16/hr for level two. Other than the pay rates, the jobs were essentially the same, with slightly higher technical abilities & slightly more experience required for the level two job.

So needless to say, I decided to move forward with the level two technical interview. And it went smashingly. I was able to answer most of the questions directly. For the things I didn't know or didn't have experience with, I told them as much and said that if I had to make an educated guess, it would be xyz... And they really seemed to like my answers.

I was in there for almost two hours. Thirty-some-odd questions. But it didn't feel grueling and they were very personable and friendly and easy going guys. At the end, they said "well, this is very unprofessional of us to say and contractually we can't offer anything or make any promises right now, but you are SO in." But they also went on to say that I'd have to deal with the HR folks (staffing company) making the final decisions and offers, and while they liked this HR person, there were some HR things that she'd have to go through or abide by and they said "we just hope you accept the offer." Hrm. Left me with a slight bad taste in my mouth, but I didn't think toooo much of it.

That was Wednesday of last week that I did the interview. I got a call from & played phone tag with the HR person on Tuesday of this week, and finally got to talk to her on Wednesday morning - and she said there'd been some "movement" and the part time job isn't available, but I am their #1 candidate and would I be interested in the full time position?? Ugh. I had to decline. There's just no way I can handle school + full time work + taking care of the homefront. I'd end up working or going to school 7 days a week, and that sounds way too hellish to me. So I told her that I appreciated the offer but I'd have to decline. She told me that there might be some more movement soon and to keep in touch with her in case the part time job came up again. I sent her an email afterwards to say thanks and that I'd be interested if part time came up again, and she immediately emailed me back that I was a great fit & she was pretty certain that a PT position would come up soon and again asked me to keep in touch with her.

Then yesterday afternoon I got a call from the HR person again - I had apparently missed a call from her on my cell (loaned it to hubby who promptly stuffed it in his jacket pocket and forgot to return it to me) and she called me at home in the late afternoon. She said that there was movement again and a PT position became available and would I still be interested?! I told her yes and we started to chat a bit about it.

Then she said that it was back to a level one position. Sigh. And then she said that the hourly rate would be $13/hr, and "would that be okay??" Double sigh. I mentioned that I was under the impression that it was going to be for a level two position and that I was hoping for a higher rate. I asked her if there was any flexibility in that rate or if it was firm. She said that it was pretty firm and said she can mayyyybe come up to $13.50 if that makes a difference. Hrm.

The only perk/benefit I get is free food. There are numerous cafeterias in the building I'd be working in (it serves as a fancy dorm for executives that are attending the masters program), and the food does smell scrum-dilly-umptious. (But that's no reason to take a job!) There's no paid time off at all - no vacation days, no sick days - and no benefits. Honestly, when I gave her a $13-15/hr range in that first interview, I was under the assumption that there'd be SOME paid time off. (Geez, even my first PT job at 16 working as a drug store cashier had vacation time!)

I asked how quickly she needed a response, and she said I could take the weekend to think about it. So now I'm trying to figure out what the heck to do. The economy is AWFUL and there are very very few part time jobs out there. Most of them that I've seen are in the $10/hr range too. And given that they're offering me $1.50/hr over the top pay range for level one workers is somewhat flattering, but that doesn't change the fact that I'd like more money and think I'm worth it.

The things that I worry about are:
- am I going to be labeled level one just because I'm part time and will I be doing level two work but just not be getting paid for it?
- what happened to them being able to make exceptions and being able to offer me a part time level two job? Was there some bad feedback from my level two technical interview? Why was I interviewed for level two if it was clear that I didn't want to work full time and if they weren't going to offer level two to me part time??
- am I being played here? Was this past week of yoyo'ing all part of the game to try to reel me in?
- if I qualify for level two and the managers think I'm a better fit for level two, am I going to be bored off my arse working on level one??

I think that no matter what, I want to try to negotiate for more money. I'll use the fact that I gave numbers under the assumption of other benefits being included as a bargaining chip of sorts. If I'm not getting ANY paid time off then I would definitely like to get more money to make up for that. I don't want to get the IT managers in trouble & tell her that I saw the pay rates that I wasn't supposed to see, so I think I'll tell her that I realize I'm probably approaching or getting close to the pay rates for level two workers, and I'd have no hesitation saying yes to XX/hr, and that I realize she probably has a range that she has to stick to so I am willing to work with her on finalizing that figure to something we can both live with. (I think that XX/hr will be $15 for the level one position.) I don't want to blow this by asking for "too much" money but I also want to try to get a fair wage, and I don't want to get played here.

So I'm open to suggestions, feedback, etc. Is this a good general strategy? Should I ask for more, knowing that I'd be going way over their standard pay range for the position??

Non-Profit Techie

If i were you I would take the job. I made the same mistake in my first tech job. I told them what i the minimum i wanted to work for and that is what they offered. Anyway, times are tuff and you can make a little money while in school. If the job sucks you can always leave and just leave it off your resume because your schooling dates can hide the time frame. Who knows, you might learn some things while there.

skrpune

thanks for the feedback, Non-Profit Techie. I'm leaning towards accepting. I know that it doesn't seem like a big difference, but if I can get them up to $14/hr I'd just FEEL better about taking the job. If they're very very firm and won't budge, then I might still take the offer. Besides, even at $13.50/hr, that's a whole helluva lot more than I'm making now which is zippo!

undomiel

This place is sounding kind of shady, in the HR department at least. Do you have any of this in writing? Do you have the contact info of the managers you interviewed with? If you do I would recommend getting in contact with them to find out what the real story is of what they would be doing with you. It certainly sounds to me that HR is trying to get the best (read: cheapest) deal possible for them and is pulling out all the tricks in the book. If you can find out what you would actually be doing (and not being an L2 relabeled and paid as an L1) then you'll better be able to decide that you should be asking for. If you aren't able to get in contact with the managers then what you could do is let this HR person know that the minimum range that you gave her earlier was contingent upon benefits and PTO so it would be difficult for you to accept the position at the rate that she is giving you. Or alternatively you could just flat out ask for say $14.50, reiterating your value to the team, and then wait for her to counter offer with something hopefully higher.

Now if you do find out that you will actually be working as an L2 then that changes thing. Explain to her the responsibilities you know that you would be taking on and what these would be worth in the market, and then either let her know that you were expecting a good bit more for those responsibilities or just flat out name a dollar value expecting to negotiate down from there. Good luck and stay strong on it!

skrpune

Thanks for the great reply undomiel!

Nothing in writing right now, which does make me a little nervous. So far, it's just a verbal offer over the phone yesterday. And I agree, I feel like there's some games being played here and the HR/staffing company is trying to keep as much money in their own pockets as they can. I'd be getting paid through them instead of the university, so I am certain that they're getting paid xxx/hr for the position and just doling out what they want to from it, which is as little as possible of course.

Unfortunately I have NO contact info for the IT manager I'd be working with. Otherwise, I'd have been on the phone with him within seconds of that conversation with HR yesterday!! I tried to find his contact info on the university's website & staff listing, but to no avail. I found what I think is the other IT manager on LinkedIn, but I don't want to be so forward as to go contacting someone who I am not sure is the right person and for whom I really wouldn't be working. That would probably turn me off and strike me as slightly stalky if I was on the other side of the equation.

I definitely want to clarify if I'd be doing L1 or L2 work, and I agree with you that it's a whole different conversation if it turns out that I'd be doing L2 work but be deemed L1 because of my PT status (which would just suck and would make me want to say "thanks but no thanks"). I'm going to not let her know that I'd say yes at $14/hr and I really think that I want to try for $15/hr & just see what happens. If her head pops, then I know I've gone too high! But I can't know without asking. It's so hard for me to negotiate like this - I'm usually one to waffle and just accept, but I'm going to try to stay strong & get a bit more out of her. And then I'll ask for the official offer in writing with the level X status indicated & the (hopefully higher negotiated) hourly rate offer specified, and I'll tell her that I will give her an acceptance, pending speaking with the IT manager to confirm that we can make the schedule work and to confirm that I'd be doing level X work. Or at least that's what I'm thinking of doing and how I hope it will go, I have yet to see if she's going to budge from that last offer...I'm open to more feedback & other suggestions...

undomiel

So you do have the names of the managers? Well you could call the department receptionist and ask for them then. Worse that could happen is your call gets screened. Definitely try to get everything in writing, and as soon as possible. It'll solidify your negotiating power just a bit more. It's too bad they're trying to screw you over. Just remember that you're aiming for a win-win scenario, not a lose-win or lose-lose. Keep your head clear and again good luck with it all!

skrpune

undomiel wrote: »

So you do have the names of the managers? Well you could call the department receptionist and ask for them then. Worse that could happen is your call gets screened.

DOH! Here I am trying to go all around aboutly and via the website, and I totally neglected to think about the direct, low tech method of just CALLING the school & asking for them!! Thank you, wonderful suggestion.

sprkymrk

1. A decent job is better than no job.

2. All companies, universities, contractors, schools, mom-and-pop shops and even Federal jobs HR folks try to get the best for the least, so don't take it personal.

3. Doing level 2 work for level 1 pay means at least you get to work with more interesting stuff.

4. Did you say free food? I would be all over that!

elaverick1981

Personally I'd say take it on a trial basis. You can second guess the suitability and complexity of the job all you like, but there's nothing like genuine experience. Besides which each company sets its levels at different places anyway and you might find your idea of level one and theirs are two entirely different things.

Congrats on the offer what ever the outcome tho

nielpeel

sprkymrk wrote: »

4. Did you say free food? I would be all over that!

Yep me too!

the_Grinch

Not an expert, but here is my two cents. When I worked at a Call Desk for an ISP the difference between the level one and two techs (besides the pay) was the number of calls they closed. They had a formula and once your number of calls versus time spent on them hit a certain number you were automatically promoted. They received the same calls I did and in my time there I never said "let me send you to level 2". So in that respect I wouldn't worry about it too much. On the pay front, while I agree that you are worth more be careful. I interviewed for a helpdesk position at a bank and when they asked about pay I gave the number that would be comfortable to me and that's when the interview went south. My number was about 5k more then the most they pay and probably 8k more then they were planning on bringing me in. As be benies and paid time off, very few part time positions provide theses. I find that local government jobs (I've worked at two school districts) usually give you the paid time off (if they aren't trying to screw you and breaking the law). The one school I was at gave me 10 days that I could take immediately and once I finished my first year I would get 7 vacation days on top of the 10 "sick/personal" days.

I would take the job for a couple of reasons. First, hard to find a job in this economy. Second, perhaps if you do your time there the University will bring you on fulltime as one of their employees (think free tuition for a master's degree!). Third, more experience is more experience. Good luck and congrats on doing well with the interview, if nothing else you have proved your skills are solid!

skrpune

thanks for the feedback. I am leaning towards countering with $14/hr, and if she says no dice then I'll take the $13.50 & ask for a review in a couple months & see if we can do the bump to $14 then. I thought it over yesterday while doing some "retail therapy" (I'm either going to need more interview outfits or some decent work clothes! ) and I would love to get out of the house more and learn more AND get paid for it. Considering there are hardly any part time IT jobs in Chicagoland, and also considering that most of them are categorized as internships paying $10-12 per hour, I'm going to try to do what it takes to land me this job.

And sprkymrk & nielpeel, I'm SO trying not to let my tummy make the decision for me, but MAN is the lure of free and yummy food making me want to say yes! Seriously, if they're cooking for executives in a fancy dorm, it must be good food, and it really did smell beyond wonderful in there. Just walking through the hallways made me hungry...

the_Grinch

If it was anything like my colleges food I would run for the hills. Was it good? Yes and there was a great variety, but the bad? I firmly believe the cooking staff cooked it with laxatives because people were never so regular. You'd go home and say what happen? Only to return and find out! Either way, good luck!

skrpune

well, I made myself a little script & called the HR person this morning...and got her voice mail, grr. She called me back a few minutes later, so I whipped out my script.

I told her I was very appreciative of her keeping me in mind when this PT position became available again & that I am very appreciative of the offer...and that I just had a couple questions I wanted to go over with her. I asked if this was a L1 position, and she said yes. I asked her if there was some feedback from my L2 interview that would have precluded me from being hired on L2, because I was under the impression from discussions at that interview that a part time L2 position was within the realm of possibility. She said that she was almost sure that L2 is only full time, but that she didn't want to give me a wrong answer and said that she'd call the IT manager to make sure. Then she asked if I had any other questions...

So I went for it. I asked her if the hourly rate she quoted me ($13.50/hr) was a firm and final offer. She semi-hesitated and said a slightly prolonged "yesss."

I kept my cool and said, "well why don't you call the IT manager and just confirm the level and then we can wrap up the discussion." She said I should hear from her within the hour.

She called me back within minutes. She confirmed that it is L1, and their policy is that they just do not hire L2s part time...but that I would be challenged with some L2 work from time to time, and whenever I'm ready to come on full time I can go to L2. And then she offered me more money. Nice! She asked if $14/hr would be better, and I of course said yes it would!! I was honest with her and said, "I know I gave you that $13-15 range when we first spoke and honestly I would LIKE to get $15 but I realize that's a bit far off from where we're at now and I don't want to press you past what you can do here." She offered up that if/when I go to L2, there would be a pay increase & said that she bumped it up to $14 because they really want me to come on board.

Soooo....I accepted!! She's going to be sending me an offer letter, and after a background check (which I'm sure I'll pass because I'm squeaky clean), we'll schedule a time for me to come in to do paperwork & get parking passes/misc. taken care of & set up my schedule. And I'll get paid for coming in to fill out paperwork, which is kinda nice. So I might actually start drawing a paycheck this week! Weeee!

I can't believe that I didn't even have to negotiate for more money. All I had to do was ask if it was a firm & final offer, and then do a deadpan response. Here I was all worried about negotiating myself up to $14/hr, and she did it for me!

Dayum, it feels good to be wanted and employed.

(Oh, and I just checked my email and I have the offer letter already! Seems like they're a little excited to get me on board!)

sprkymrk

That's great news!

Oh, and if you don't mind a little advice....

Don't buy any new work clothes until you find out how good the free food is (especially the desserts) just in case you might need a different size in a few months.

Okay, sorry that's bad joke to say to a female...

NetAdmin2436

Congrats on the new job

elaverick1981

Congratulations, hope it goes well for you.

skrpune

Thanks all!

sprkymrk wrote: »

Oh, and if you don't mind a little advice....

Don't buy any new work clothes until you find out how good the free food is (especially the desserts) just in case you might need a different size in a few months.

Okay, sorry that's bad joke to say to a female...

No worries...I can take a joke. And believe me, I thought about it - I did a little clothes shopping this weekend, and as I was trying on dress pants I was thinking, "hrm, I hope these still fit in a couple weeks!" Besides, if the food really is that good, then I'll just have to finally get my lazy butt down to the exercise room in my condo and start working out!

drainey

Sorry I didn't see this post earlier but on a side note, once you are in place and actually working talk to your manager about a L2 part time position once your "trial" period is over. Many companies work with staffing agencies and are tied to certain contractual standards with them. Such as what pay/level the staffing agency has to hire you at/for, etc. In the contract there is usually a time frame "trial period" in which you have to remain on the staffing companies payroll. After that time is up, the actual company you are working for is free to hire you as their own permanent employee. At that time they are no longer bound by contract and can offer you whatever pay/position they'd like. So once you have met the terms specified by their contract with the staffing agency, they can move you over to a permanent part time position with them and promote you to L2 if they want. Maybe you could even work in a merit raise at that time as well.

Good luck and hey a job is a job and any job beats no job. So even if L2 doesn't work out at least you'll get some definable work experience to put on your resume.

undomiel

Congratulations! I'm glad that worked out for you. And you know what you did there actually was the basics of salary negotiation. Good experience! I hope you enjoy the new job! Ask them if they're hiring any sys admins, I'd be happy to come out there and boss you around.

skrpune

undomiel wrote: »

Congratulations! I'm glad that worked out for you. And you know what you did there actually was the basics of salary negotiation. Good experience! I hope you enjoy the new job! Ask them if they're hiring any sys admins, I'd be happy to come out there and boss you around.

Thanks! Hey, who knew I had negotiation in me?! I certainly didn't. I've just accepted every other offer as is. Now if I had just used this technique earlier in my professional career I would have made THOUSANDS more dollars over the course of the last ten years. (Wow, that's kinda depressing. )

And okay, I know that the Phoenix summers can be pretty brutal - spent ~9 years living in Tempe - but you're volunteering to trade Phx weather with Chicago weather?! I would KILL to be back in Phoenix! Sigh, how I miss the "winters" there...

skrpune

drainey wrote: »

Sorry I didn't see this post earlier but on a side note, once you are in place and actually working talk to your manager about a L2 part time position once your "trial" period is over. Many companies work with staffing agencies and are tied to certain contractual standards with them. Such as what pay/level the staffing agency has to hire you at/for, etc. In the contract there is usually a time frame "trial period" in which you have to remain on the staffing companies payroll. After that time is up, the actual company you are working for is free to hire you as their own permanent employee. At that time they are no longer bound by contract and can offer you whatever pay/position they'd like. So once you have met the terms specified by their contract with the staffing agency, they can move you over to a permanent part time position with them and promote you to L2 if they want. Maybe you could even work in a merit raise at that time as well.

Good luck and hey a job is a job and any job beats no job. So even if L2 doesn't work out at least you'll get some definable work experience to put on your resume.

Thanks! Yup, once I get in there and get a little more comfortable with my manager, I'll have some conversations over time to find out what the real deal is and what my future prospects are with the staffing company and with the university. I'm actually employed by the staffing company & not the university, so it's a bit of a weird situation. In the interview, the IT managers (university employees) said that there was "plenty of room for advancement here...not through the staffing company, but through the university." And I kinda want to find out what the heck they meant by that comment, but I'll figure that out in due time.

BUT for the time being, it's like you said - it's a job, and it's a job that pays reasonably well and is workable around my class schedule, so I ain't complainin!

undomiel

You can have the Phoenix weather and winters! You can especially have the Phoenix summers. Chicago's one of my favourite cities, I grew up just a few hours away over in Michigan. Much better weather there. Snow!

skrpune

undomiel wrote: »

You can have the Phoenix weather and winters! You can especially have the Phoenix summers. Chicago's one of my favourite cities, I grew up just a few hours away over in Michigan. Much better weather there. Snow!

alrighty, let's do a trade then! I grew up in NYC so I'm used to winter, but MAN did I ever get spoiled by those years in AZ. I STILL get cold when it's below 75-80 degrees! I'd much rather have hot hot summers & battle for shady parking spots than freeze my tuckus off & dig out my car when it snows.

imfrom51

skrpune wrote: »

.... "plenty of room for advancement here...not through the staffing company, but through the university." And I kinda want to find out what the heck they meant by that comment, but I'll figure that out in due time.

My wife went from a cleaner in a hospital to a forensic tech performing over 300 autopsys a year by just talking to the right people and putting herself out there. Once you are in the door, use those soft skills to move to where you want to go.

Oh and congrats on the whole thing. Quite the story. Makes for a great learning experience.

drainey

Well that was the deal with my former job. I was hired through the staffing company which was under contract to fill job x. So they had no room to work with me in regards to position and they weren't going to offer any more than the least amount I was willing to work for in regards to pay.

Whereas the company I was doing the work for actually could work with me in regards to pay and position. I just happened to ask my supervisor when I'd be able to apply for a transfer to a different position, he replied that at the end of my 6 weeks "probationary" period they could "hire" me away from the staffing company and at that time I was free to apply for a transfer, merit raise, etc.

I figured I throw it out there as maybe you can work something out with the university. Perhaps doing a lot of L2 stuff for L1 pay until you are free of the obligation to the staffing company and the university can pick you up as a permanent univeristy employee at which time they can make you an official L2 employee (and hopefully put some more change in your pocket to boot).

astorrs

skrpune wrote: »

I'd much rather have hot hot summers & battle for shady parking spots than freeze my tuckus off & dig out my car when it snows.

Ah yes those lovely covered (and coveted) parking spots, essential if you don't want to puke the second you get in your car after having left it in direct sunlight for 8-10 hours. And what kind of moron at the Hertz @ PHX ordered a damn car with a black leather interior... and no I sent it back before I even left the airport last time.

Forsaken_GA

I'm glad you had the presence of mind to be willing to accept the job, but still have the guts to do some negotiation. If I was unemployed and looking for work, I don't think I'd be able to turn down a job because of a cent difference between the offered hourly rate and the one I'd accept. From my past experiences working with staffing companies, I expect to get screwed on the hourly rate, it's just how they work. But once you're eligible for direct hire, you can usually get the company you're working for to do right by you.

skrpune

astorrs wrote: »

Ah yes those lovely covered (and coveted) parking spots, essential if you don't want to puke the second you get in your car after having left it in direct sunlight for 8-10 hours. And what kind of moron at the Hertz @ PHX ordered a damn car with a black leather interior... and no I sent it back before I even left the airport last time.

hell, even a parking spot that's partially shaded by one non-leafy branch of an itty bitty tree is one that folks will walk across a long stretch of parking lot for! The real trick is not melting as you walk from the parking spot to your destination.

skrpune

Forsaken_GA wrote: »

I'm glad you had the presence of mind to be willing to accept the job, but still have the guts to do some negotiation. If I was unemployed and looking for work, I don't think I'd be able to turn down a job because of a cent difference between the offered hourly rate and the one I'd accept. From my past experiences working with staffing companies, I expect to get screwed on the hourly rate, it's just how they work. But once you're eligible for direct hire, you can usually get the company you're working for to do right by you.

believe me, it was hard to not just say "I'LL TAKE IT!" when they first offered it to me. It's kinda my m.o. to undervalue myself and just take whatever I'm offered and screw myself out of things in the process.

I've been out of work for quite some time (last paycheck I got was in early July of 2008!) and it's been a challenge to move & buy a condo and make my husband's paycheck stretch to cover everything. But I'm so glad I stuck it out and never said no but didn't say yes either...and the part that I find funny is that I never really had to negotiate or ask for anything, they did it for me. All I did was ask questions. (Reminds me of that funny book store scene from "The 40-Year Old Virgin" movie!)