New CCIE Changes Officially Announced

aragoen_celtdra

CCIE R&S 4.0 scheduled to be released on October 18, 2009. Some of the notable changes are the inclusion of:
- MPLS
- VPN
- 2-hour Troubleshooting section

Read all about them on the following links:

Program Updates - 05/05/09 - Recent Program Information - Cisco Systems
Upcoming Revision to CCIE R&S Certification

ColbyG

Saw this earlier, definitely worries me.

dynamik

Do they offer some overlap between the current and new lab once it's released, or does it replace it that day? It seems like five months really isn't that much notice for such an intense certification.

nel

dynamik wrote: »

Do they offer some overlap between the current and new lab once it's released, or does it replace it that day? It seems like five months really isn't that much notice for such an intense certification.

From reading the link it states for those taking it after the specified date to study the new exam topics. Doesnt make much sense to me if thats the case considering what effort you have to put into it. Maybe cisco will make an extension of some kind.

networker050184

I think this is kind of quick to implement the change also. Any changes to the CCIE should get at least 12 months advanced notice IMO.

kryolla

No worries for me. I dont plan on taking it until a year after it is released. Sometime in the fall of 2010. I want to make sure I pass it on the first try.

Turgon

The additions make sense from a field perspective. It's also a counter to the appalling practice of lab cheating that does go on. I imagine the training vendors will be clobbered with requests to update their training materials but I doubt they will manage in time. 360 will most likely be the safest bet for candidates post October 18th.

nel

Turgon wrote: »

The additions make sense from a field perspective. It's also a counter to the appalling practice of lab cheating that does go on. I imagine the training vendors will be clobbered with requests to update their training materials but I doubt they will manage in time. 360 will most likely be the safest bet for candidates post October 18th.

So if the change goes ahead as stated, how will this effect your prep turgon?

Forsaken_GA

The changes look like good ones to me, a troubleshooting section sounds absolutely great. I think the open ended questions they added previously are more annoying than that.

These changes also reaffirm to me that I made the correct choice in deciding to go after the CCIP prior to beginning CCIE studies.

Turgon

nel wrote: »

So if the change goes ahead as stated, how will this effect your prep turgon?

That's a good question! At present rate of progress I'm shooting for a September lab slot so I will get the chance to do exam 'as is' before things change. I would expect my preparation to be very strong by then. Providing I get a doable lab on the day I may clear it. Failing that I will have to try out the new version if I can't get a fairly rapid resit. If I have to take the new version I will prepare for the newer topics after the first attempt.

I really need to get the written done now so I can schedule the lab before all the slots go. We will probably see a drastic reduction in lab slot availability now as people grab a slot way before they are ready, tank the lab and try and brute force it before the changes.

I'm not too bothered. MPLS has arrived and we all have to learn something about it these days. It's funny, years ago the CCIE in R&S just got wider as more things were shoed into it, then the separate tracks emerged, security, C&S, Voice..now things seem to have gone full circle again. It's fair. CCIE's are expected to know everything after all

APA

Turgon wrote: »

The additions make sense from a field perspective. It's also a counter to the appalling practice of lab cheating that does go on. I imagine the training vendors will be clobbered with requests to update their training materials but I doubt they will manage in time. 360 will most likely be the safest bet for candidates post October 18th.

360 program is actually the only training solution aligned to the V4.0 blueprints.... so it'll be interesting to see whether all the training vendors do get thier solutions sorted or whether Cisco pushes them to resell the 360 program...

I think the changes are warranted and valid.... it clearly states that if you haven't booked labs\writtens yet and are planning to sit after October 18th then to be studying according to the v4.0 blueprints.... Lab candidates might be a bit short changed I guess... but as for the written that shouldn't be too hard to cover the extra topics between now and then...

Turgon

APA wrote: »

360 program is actually the only training solution aligned to the V4.0 blueprints.... so it'll be interesting to see whether all the training vendors do get there solutions sorted or whether Cisco pushes them to resell the 360 program...

I think the changes are warranted and valid.... it clearly states that if you haven't booked labs\writtens yet and are planning to sit after october 18th then to be studying according to the v4.0 blueprints.... Lab candidates might be a bit short changed I think... but as for the written that shouldn't be to hard to cover the extra topics between now and then...

It all adds to the fun. Personally I have no problem with the changes really. Over the years I have seen many changes on the lab, during which time I have had a great education in networking, have a great career and enjoy a great family life. I would have to say that while Im not done with it yet, the CCIE process has been very rewarding for me personally so I will just take it as it comes. There will no doubt be lots of panic about all this

Mrock4

I'm happy to see MPLS. The addition of VPN technologies will make me work harder, but I am definitely a fan of the 2 hour troubleshooting section at the beginning. I think the troubleshooting section is long overdue. I'd like to see some kind of implementation of this same idea at the professional tracks more...I think this would help separate the guys who know their stuff from braindumpers to some extent. The downside here, is I planned on taking the first attempt in April 2010..it may or may not have to be bumped back. We shall see.

That being said, it's nice to see Cisco curbing some cheating at the CCIE level, but I personally feel they should focus more of their energy on the majority of cisco professionals, which are CCxP and below. It's nice to focus on a program because it is the pinnacle of the Cisco certification world, but we still have CCxP's out there who can't configure their way out of a box. Let's see some troubleshooting scenario's more in CCxP certs.

aragoen_celtdra

One opinion I've read, and I can't remember who or where, brought up a legitimate argument that MPLS shouldn't have been introduced in the R&S lab and should have stayed in the SP track.

In thinking about it, I agree with that assessment. My reasoning is two-fold:
1.) In an enterprise environment, most engineers will not encounter too much MPLS configuration/provisioning, etc. This is usually done in the service providers domain. At least that was the experience with two previous companies I've worked for that implemented MPLS.
2.) MPLS, already included in the written section should be enough to provide the enterprise engineer the necessary knowledge to work with the service provider's engineers.

Tell me if I'm way off in my observation. Do you think MPLS (at least the lab portion) should've stayed in SP track?

networker050184

I agree that it should stay in the SP track. It is a service provider technology and if you don't work for a service provider you probably will never touch it outside of a lab.

nel

aragoen_celtdra wrote: »

One opinion I've read, and I can't remember who or where, brought up a legitimate argument that MPLS shouldn't have been introduced in the R&S lab and should have stayed in the SP track.

In thinking about it, I agree with that assessment. My reasoning is two-fold:
1.) In an enterprise environment, most engineers will not encounter too much MPLS configuration/provisioning, etc. This is usually done in the service providers domain. At least that was the experience with two previous companies I've worked for that implemented MPLS.
2.) MPLS, already included in the written section should be enough to provide the enterprise engineer the necessary knowledge to work with the service provider's engineers.

Tell me if I'm way off in my observation. Do you think MPLS (at least the lab portion) should've stayed in SP track?

You could also argue that for other cisco exams too - where other subjects spill into a exam it shouldnt really be in. Or at least from my experiance.

Btw, Turgon mentioned many folk cheating on the labs. I thought that was highly unlikely considering the amount of prep required. Or was that in reference to the written?

kryolla

It just a small portion of MPLS that will be introduced into R&S and a majority of it is still in SP track i.e MPLS TE

Turgon

nel wrote: »

You could also argue that for other cisco exams too - where other subjects spill into a exam it shouldnt really be in. Or at least from my experiance.

Btw, Turgon mentioned many folk cheating on the labs. I thought that was highly unlikely considering the amount of prep required. Or was that in reference to the written?

Cheating? Yes it is a problem. Cheating on the written is rife these days and it's one of the reasons why so many people have problems with lab prep and the lab itself. No solid theoretical foundation. Cheating on the lab does go on, it always has one way or another.

nick619

I also find it odd that MPLS would be included in the R&S version of CCIE. I thought R&S was more geared towards the enterprise. IMO the MPLS/VPN's should be on SP version only. I heard R&S was very broad as it is, now I guess it will be even more broad with the added technologies.

Forsaken_GA

The other interesting thing is that they're changing out the lab equipment, dropping the 3550's and upgrading all routers to ISR's. It'll be interesting to see what that portends, and how it affects my bottom line when it comes time to build the CCIE rack.

rossonieri#1

wow,
i think i should agree to those supports MPLS should stay in SP (cisco should be careful with this or else ... ), and that 2 hours trouble shooting

apd123

Overall I think the changes were on point, just looking at the security topics that are not listed anymore makes me feel better. I get they want you to secure "R&S devices, but it seems to me they might as well just throw an ASA on there as in my experience few companies are using the router to provide Firewalling/VPN/IPS/NAT topics they are testing. I am fine with Frame Relay staying on the exam as it is used primarily to cause layer 3 issues, however they should go ahead and **** frame relay traffic shaping the amount of time I have wasted on this is staggering as it is in almost every vendor lab.

The problem with leaving MPLS off of the exam is then a CCIE may not be able to answer an obvious question like does the CE router need to support MPLS or VRF? I do realize the answer to that question is the case for MPLS not being on the exam. Being on the written is a valid point, but it seems like Cisco given up on the written as a valid proof of knowledge. I would also argue that if you feel it doesn't belong on the Lab then it shouldn't belong on the Written either. For me reading 40 pages in a exam prep book 6-18 months before I pass the lab hardly qualifies me to consult on anything MPLS related; it wasn't until my SP prep when I could have had an intelligent conversation about the technology.

Turgon

apd123 wrote: »

Overall I think the changes were on point, just looking at the security topics that are not listed anymore makes me feel better. I get they want you to secure "R&S devices, but it seems to me they might as well just throw an ASA on there as in my experience few companies are using the router to provide Firewalling/VPN/IPS/NAT topics they are testing. I am fine with Frame Relay staying on the exam as it is used primarily to cause layer 3 issues, however they should go ahead and **** frame relay traffic shaping the amount of time I have wasted on this is staggering as it is in almost every vendor lab.

The problem with leaving MPLS off of the exam is then a CCIE may not be able to answer an obvious question like does the CE router need to support MPLS or VRF? I do realize the answer to that question is the case for MPLS not being on the exam. Being on the written is a valid point, but it seems like Cisco given up on the written as a valid proof of knowledge. I would also argue that if you feel it doesn't belong on the Lab then it shouldn't belong on the Written either. For me reading 40 pages in a exam prep book 6-18 months before I pass the lab hardly qualifies me to consult on anything MPLS related; it wasn't until my SP prep when I could have had an intelligent conversation about the technology.

Nailed it. I agree with all of this. MPLS has arrived and more and more companies even enterprises need to have a handle on it. MPLS is not exclusively the province of service providers and a CCIE of any flavour is going to be expected to be both knowlegable about the subject and able to work with it competently to some extent.

rossonieri#1

@ apd123,

well, i think i'm seeing a little bit differences due to nature
i cant speak very well - so i hope you understand what i'm saying,

wow,
i think i should agree to those supports MPLS should stay in SP (cisco should be careful with this or else ... ), and that 2 hours trouble shooting

what i mean is :
i dont know how WAN connections deployed on other countries, but here in my country - unless a customer/subscriber is a very2 huge company(or *enterprise*?) - using multipoint deployment, dont bother to touch any routers. the routers are providers. that was it.

hence, not that i disagree with cisco's putting the MPLS topic (its their right anyway to put any topic as they wanted to) - certainly no, and i'd already read the blueprint saying troubleshooting on MPLS - so perhaps i thought it was like for the subscriber to do the first aid before calling the tech support, so no problem. so i only put "should be careful".

"or else" i mean, if the MPLS topics are *goes more* to providers specific - i'm affraid that cisco's will put too much weight for a single person.

what i mean by we're having differences due to nature is like this one :

Overall I think the changes were on point, just looking at the security topics that are not listed anymore makes me feel better. I get they want you to secure "R&S devices, but it seems to me they might as well just throw an ASA on there as in my experience few companies are using the router to provide Firewalling/VPN/IPS/NAT topics they are testing. I am fine with Frame Relay staying on the exam as it is used primarily to cause layer 3 issues, however they should go ahead and **** frame relay traffic shaping the amount of time I have wasted on this is staggering as it is in almost every vendor lab.

since, in my country especially - there are mostly SMBs/SMEs - hence the technologies mainly used are those that you dont want to have anymore (ipsec, NAT, even the old frame-relay, security and the like)

so, i was saying its just like we're in opposite direction - just because of the nature.

The problem with leaving MPLS off of the exam is then a CCIE may not be able to answer an obvious question like does the CE router need to support MPLS or VRF? I do realize the answer to that question is the case for MPLS not being on the exam. Being on the written is a valid point, but it seems like Cisco given up on the written as a valid proof of knowledge. I would also argue that if you feel it doesn't belong on the Lab then it shouldn't belong on the Written either. For me reading 40 pages in a exam prep book 6-18 months before I pass the lab hardly qualifies me to consult on anything MPLS related; it wasn't until my SP prep when I could have had an intelligent conversation about the technology.

couldnt disagree with you

redwarrior

Overall, I think the new changes are great, particularly adding in troubleshooting. In my opinion, troubleshooting should be a big part of every Cisco exam, probably more than it is since that tends to be the more difficult part of an engineer's job. (And more fun, I think.)

What scares me isn't that MPLS is expanded on the new exam, since Cisco has even said that the questions will be more basic, but the fact that scoring below 80% on either the troubleshooting or open-ended question section means that it doesn't matter how well you do on the rest of your lab. Sure, everyone should score above 80% on each section, but let's say you are nervous at the beginning and just start to hit your stride a bit in? Or let's say you're not the best writer when it comes to the short answer questions, but you nail everything else so well that it would have negated your poor score there?

I guess I just think it would be more fair to score them all together and require a 80% or better combined score, which would still require candidates to be able to answer open-ended questions and have troubleshooting skills without penalizing them too severely for being off on any one section so long as they could make up the points elsewhere.

For my plan...I think this just means I've gotta up my game, which is a good thing.

CCIEWANNABE

question is, with them replacing the 3725 routers with the 18xx routers, will we still be able to use dynamips to simulate the routing portion of the lab and then tie in the 3560's for the switching portion? that's what i'm worried about.

Turgon

CCIEWANNABE wrote: »

question is, with them replacing the 3725 routers with the 18xx routers, will we still be able to use dynamips to simulate the routing portion of the lab and then tie in the 3560's for the switching portion? that's what i'm worried about.

I think you worry too much. Anything you can cobble together will help. Heck I have a stack of 2500 series routers at home that have served me well. Anything you are have problems with use remote racks.

CCIEWANNABE

In your experience what is the best online rack rental company. There is a million of them. If I could connect to the companies rack from work that would be awesome. I guess I just need to try it out.

kryolla

That depends on what vendor you are using for your workbooks. I use IE so they have their own rack which is setup just like their workbooks.

CCIEWANNABE

i do most of my studying from work, so i would like to know how you gain access to their online racks. Is it seen as telnet or ssh traffic (this might raise some eyebrows at work from the security people). Or is it tunneled through port 80, if so that would be awesome. thanks for the help.

Ahriakin

Most are direct Telnet and RDP if you need it for server side.