Ccna/ccnp/ccie

Bl8ckr0uter

Greetings:

I have a quick question for all of you who have obtained the CCNA and above.

I was trying to figure out whether or not after I take my CCNA in June it was worth going to classes for the CCNP. There is a years worth of classes (each 7 credits each) that I could take at a local college and I was wondering if I should try to wait on it or go for it in the fall. How does the CCNA stackup when compared to the CCNP as far as difficulty and overall worth? Is the CCNA even worth obtaining or should I start studying for the CCIE (I want to take it in a few years, maybe 4-5 years min)? Does anyone have any input on CCNP classes?

stlsmoore

Me personally I would do them in order...I think CCNA is a prerequisite anyways I might be wrong on this though. CCNA is the foundation to everything else after words, then I would go through CCNP. I think before you touch CCNP it might be better to at least have real experience with networks but that's just me. To be honest though I see I a lot of people claim that they're going to go straight for their CCIE. The thing is that it's A LOT harder to obtain than it seems and requires a lot of dedication. There is a reason why there are barely over 20,000 CCIE's in the whole world! Nothing is impossible though so take my opinion with a grain of salt, best of luck to you!

tiersten

CCNA is a prereq for CCNP and the various CCNA specialisations. CCIE however doesn't have any prereqs.

mikej412

knwminus wrote: »

I was trying to figure out whether or not after I take my CCNA in June it was worth going to classes for the CCNP. There is a years worth of classes (each 7 credits each) that I could take at a local college and I was wondering if I should try to wait on it or go for it in the fall.

A lot of people here do self study.

Classes have the advantage of adding structure and gives you deadlines to help guide your study -- and usually access to a decent lab. Some people need that structure, and some people don't.

Starting the CCNP classes while you're looking for that first CCNA level job could "keep you sharp" for job interviews and give you an advantage over other new CCNAs.

knwminus wrote: »

How does the CCNA stackup when compared to the CCNP as far as difficulty and overall worth?

I think each CCNP exam is more focused on the topics than the CCNA, but the quantity of material and difficulty is probably 2.5 to 3 times more than the CCNA Exam(s). Of course, after getting a CCNA and some job experience, you should be capable of working and studying at that "higher level" and may not notice.

knwminus wrote: »

Is the CCNA even worth obtaining or should I start studying for the CCIE (I want to take it in a few years, maybe 4-5 years min)?

We don't even bother calling in CCNPs without job experience anymore (except for our University Recruiting team) for job interviews -- they do worse on our screening interviews than brand new CCNAs. If we're looking for someone with CCNP level skills we have no problem finding experienced CCNPs to call in for interviews.

If you can't get the CCNA and find a job with that and start getting real world job experience, then starting to study for the CCNP and/or CCIE is a waste of time -- unless you've already been doing networking for the last 5-10+ years and are finally deciding to get some certifications. But if that were the case you probably wouldn't need to ask us.

PC509

mikej412 wrote: »

If we're looking for someone with CCNP level skills we have no problem finding experienced CCNPs to call in for interviews.

I hope that didn't come out right... Kind of makes me want to rethink my Cisco certification plans. If there is such an abundance of unemployed CCNP's out there, then maybe I should look into a different vendors certifications!

Although, I really enjoy working with Cisco, so I'm going with that. As soon as I'm done with my MCSA...

luke_bibby

At the end of the day, a cert is just a cert and proves that at some point in time you were able to pass an exam. Certs can definately push you through the HR department but when it comes to an interview with technical staff they will want to see some experience to go with it.

BroadcastStorm

This is discouraging for people who are working for their CCNP certification, when one finished his CCNP will it be hard to get an internship or let's say jr. network engineer position?

We all started with 0 experience and worked our way up, and I just think CCNA is not enough to break in to the industry, I might be wrong but just my 2 cents.

networker050184

BroadcastStorm wrote: »

This is discouraging for people who are working for their CCNP certification, when one finished his CCNP will it be hard to get an internship or let's say jr. network engineer position?

We all started with 0 experience and worked our way up, and I just think CCNA is not enough to break in to the industry, I might be wrong but just my 2 cents.

Think of certifications as a supplement to experience not a substitute. Having a CCNP with zero experience isn't really going to get you much farther than a CCNA and zero experience. If you wanted a networking "professional" wouldn't you want them to be experienced? I know I would.

You are correct we all started with zero experience, but we didn't all start with a professional level certification. Getting your first entry level position will probably have a lot more to do with your personal skills than your certification list.

My $.02

BroadcastStorm

networker050184 wrote: »

Think of certifications as a supplement to experience not a substitute. Having a CCNP with zero experience isn't really going to get you much farther than a CCNA and zero experience. If you wanted a networking "professional" wouldn't you want them to be experienced? I know I would.

You are correct we all started with zero experience, but we didn't all start with a professional level certification. Getting your first entry level position will probably have a lot more to do with your personal skills than your certification list.

My $.02

This part looks harder than CCNP, there is barely any jr. position out there or if you get a sys admin/desktop support your absolutely not allowed to touch the network equipments sometimes.

I just believe that with good attitude, hard work, and your heart into it, your chances will be better

Do you guys agree that it's better to obtain a jr. network engineer position with CCNP or just CCNA?

blackninja

BroadcastStorm wrote: »

This part looks harder than CCNP, there is barely any jr. position out there or if you get a sys admin/desktop support your absolutely not allowed to touch the network equipments sometimes.

I just believe that with good attitude, hard work, and your heart into it, your chances will be better

Do you guys agree that it's better to obtain a jr. network engineer position with CCNP or just CCNA?

I have had my CCNA for about 6 months now and still don't think I am ready to tackle the CCNP yet. Instead of doing the NP, he could get the other CCNA's and then have a good round skill set.

This is what I intend to do after getting a couple of the microsoft certs that I want.

sambuca69

BroadcastStorm wrote: »

Do you guys agree that it's better to obtain a jr. network engineer position with CCNP or just CCNA?

IMO, CCNA to get your foot in the door somewhere. The CCNA on the resume will get you some in-person interviews- no more, no less. The rest is up to the person to sell themselves.

Once you're in, work on whatever other certifications you want to pursue.

networker050184

BroadcastStorm wrote: »

I just believe that with good attitude, hard work, and your heart into it, your chances will be better

You are correct here. This is way more important then having certifications when you have no experience to back them up.

BroadcastStorm

blackninja wrote: »

I have had my CCNA for about 6 months now and still don't think I am ready to tackle the CCNP yet. Instead of doing the NP, he could get the other CCNA's and then have a good round skill set.

This is what I intend to do after getting a couple of the microsoft certs that I want.

It looks like this is a better option to get really stucked with CCNA, I'm starting to think of going for CCNA: Security and going back Microsoft to obtain MCITP, the ultimate goal is to work primarily as a network engineer, but nowadays to get some experience with networking you have to be a hybrid.

mikej412

BroadcastStorm wrote: »

We all started with 0 experience and worked our way up, and I just think CCNA is not enough to break in to the industry

Our minimum is an A+ or Network+ for a rack 'n stack position -- and the people with a good work ethic and ability and desire to learn usually move up and out from there.

The top student(s) recommended by a local Cisco Network Academy instructor usually get to bypass rack 'n stack and are usually turned loose on access layer production hardware within their first month on the job -- and they move up from there.

As I mentioned in a few other posts -- 50-60% of CCNAs we've considered for jobs fail a simple phone screening technical interview. The "CCNAs" <picture "air quotes" when you see "CCNA"> who also have the "CCNP" <more "air quotes"> and no experience have over an 80% failure rate on that simple CCNA level phone screening. You can draw your own conclusions about that failure rate....

Since we have more success with the non-experienced CCNAs -- and there's sooooooo many of them -- for entry level positions, we don't need to consider any non-experienced CCNA/CCNPs for CCNA positions.

While some clueless recruiter or HR person may place a job ad for an entry level position that requires the CCNA/CCNP/CCIE and 5-10 years of experience, most real jobs where the managers have a clue and use peer interviews have more realistic expectations. One of our expectation for a CCNP is that they have the CCNP knowledge and have at least CCNA job experience. We don't have a problem considering someone for a job who's been "working as a CCNA" while studying and EARNING their CCNP. If they can demonstrate the knowledge and skills we need and want, they get recommended for consideration for the job. If they are willing to work for less then the experienced CCNPs we also recommend, then they probably get hired. If they don't have the experience that other candidates have but want the "CCNP money," then the experienced CCNP gets the job.

Maybe back in the days of the "internet gold rush" when any dumped certification was a ticket to a job with a startup company (that had Internet in their company name) a CCNP without any job experience might have been a ticket to a job.

Now about the only place that might hire a CCNP without any experience (if you have at least a Bachelor's Degree) would be a "consulting company" that wants to pimp you out and bills the customer by the hour -- and is very happy to charge the customer for all the time you spend learning on the job and making mistakes and then trying to fix them.

About this time of the year the largest crop of new CCNAs and CCNPs should be rolling out of Cisco Network Academies -- and a bunch of them are looking for that first IT job. And a bunch of the CCNPs have been working in IT and networking and are looking to upgrade their position (and salary). And most of them are probably willing to work for less than the experienced CCNAs and CCNPs here who are working those jobs now. Welcome to the real world.

Bl8ckr0uter

Thanks for the reply everyone.


Let me give a little background. I have been working in "IT" jobs for about four years. I have been in tier 1 and tier 2 helpdesk roles and now I am working for a large corp. branch where I live. About 3 months ago I was told that a job opened for an Engineering job for our 2nd/3rd level support team.
Initally I thought I had it but they stated that they wanted either more experience with accounting, a degree, or some certifications. I am currently working to fininsh to A.A.S degrees in Network Management and Network Engineering ( I plan to have them done next spring). I have my A+ and Net+ (both of which I self studied for) and I am currently self studying for the CCNA (I plan on taking this in June). After that I plan on doing the MCP/MCSA (I have Server 2003 experience and I am running a domain at home w/ 1 physical and 4 Vm clients). I would like to get the MCSE and security+ by the end of the year.
In the job that I am in, there is NO way I would be able to get any "experience" with Cisco anything (routers, switches, telephony, firewall, etc) and I wanted to prove that I am wanting to move up to the next level ( or get another job). The classes at the local school are for the CCNP (BGP and etc) and I was just curious how hard the CCNP is. I understand TCP/IP, and through self study I have learned a decent amount about routing, switching, vlans, vtp, security, subnetting, rip, ripv2, ospf, and etc. I just wanted to know at what point do you start thinking about the next level of Cisco Certification? Could an experienced (but no Cisco experience) IT pro after obtaining the CCNA tackle the CCNP (if the person self studies) or should I go for the classes? I am not lazy or stupid and I am willing to put in whatever work I need to, I just wanted to know poeple's opinions.

miller811

mikej412 wrote: »

As I mentioned in a few other posts -- 50-60% of CCNAs we've considered for jobs fail a simple phone screening technical interview. The "CCNAs" <picture "air quotes" when you see "CCNA"> who also have the "CCNP" <more "air quotes"> and no experience have over an 80% failure rate on that simple CCNA level phone screening. You can draw your own conclusions about that failure rate....

Mike, I have seen you make this quote several times about this phone screening interview.

care to share what you are asking?

Paul Boz

I think a lot of people become "over certified" and as a result have a hard time finding either entry level work or more advanced stuff. The entry level people don't want to pay a CCNP salary and the advanced positions want work experience to go with the cert. You have to be balanced.

mikej412

knwminus wrote: »

I just wanted to know at what point do you start thinking about the next level of Cisco Certification?

You should get the certifications for the job you're doing -- if you don't already have them.

And you should work on the "next level" so that you are prepared to move up when an opportunity arises.

If you're not currently doing any networking or working with Cisco equipment, then studying for and earning the CCNA can open up some doors for you when you find a networking opportunity down the road.

If you're planning to look for networking opportunity in the very near future, then starting CCNP classes after you get the CCNA can keep you fresh for job interviews and differentiate you from other CCNAs. But earning the CCNP should take a while, especially for someone with no current networking job or experience (unless you're a college whiz kid) -- so you should have plenty of time to find an entry level networking position and get some experience BEFORE you finish the CCNP.

I'd say someone with no relevant job experience but a CCNA and MCSA would be "more interesting" to interview than someone with no relevant networking experience and a CCNA and CCNP.

miller811 wrote: »

care to share what you are asking?

No, but it's 10 simple questions. I actually did a few similar 10-15 question technical interviews long before I even considered getting a Cisco certification -- and passed them all just from my networking experience on almost all non-Cisco equipment.

Hum.... maybe I should Google and see if we're using someones old sample interview questions posted on the web in 2000

Anyone who has studied a CCNA book or passed the CCNA Network Academy Classes (but not necessarily passed the CCNA exam yet) should be able to "pass the phone interview." We'd like a 70% but will take someone with 50% if the HR rep doing the interview feels the person exhibited some sort of "train of thought" while trying to answer the question.

As an example -- if we asked what's the purpose of the Spanning Tree protocol and you stammered "loop free" OR "layer 2" you'd get all 10 points. If you said "STP?" the HR rep might still give you 2 points (out of the 10 possible points per question).

Bl8ckr0uter

mikej412 wrote: »

You should get the certifications for the job you're doing -- if you don't already have them.

And you should work on the "next level" so that you are prepared to move up when an opportunity arises.

I am assuming that when you say "networking" experience you mean routing and switching. What do you expect for a "CCNA" to know? Would you hire someone with no Cisco networking experience (but MS networking experience) but that person does have A+,N+,CCNA,MCP,MCSA, a hardworking attitude and a dashing smile ?

mikej412

knwminus wrote: »

What do you expect for a "CCNA" to know?

Most of the topics in the exam blueprint -- but we will key in on the topics that are relevant for our environment and may ignore non-relevant topics.

knwminus wrote: »

Would you hire someone with no Cisco networking experience (but MS networking experience)

Yes.....

knwminus wrote: »

but that person does have A+,N+,CCNA,MCP,MCSA, a hardworking attitude and a dashing smile ?

.... sounds like someone to start out in a data center position (or what we want our rack 'n stack guys/gals to become).

Paul Boz

mikej412 wrote: »

"STP?"

So uh, they're a band, right?

btowntech

mikej412 wrote: »

"STP?"

I thought that was a fuel additive.

Danny0990

Hey, Mike

I've a question! What if a person had NO certifications but good knowledge of the CCNA, would you even bother with an interview?

mikej412

We can find LOTs of GOOD and a FEW GREAT candidates who have the certifications we search the resumes for, so we'd probably never even get to the good or great non-certified candidates. The days where a company might have one of their recruiters cruise fast food drive thru windows and Best Buy (and Fretters -- see, it was THAT long ago) to find new IT employees with PEOPLE SKILLS to TRAIN for IT positions is long gone.

I only remember once recently when we were looking for an MCSE for an easy lab position that we went back to the resumes and searched for experience key words after all the relatively inexperienced MCSEs we liked thought they should get 80. We finally settled on an experienced but non-certified guy for 60. He's since gotten his MCSE(s) and CCNA during the lab downtime and has left the lab, joined our global deployment team, and doubled his salary.

At the opposite extreme -- we've had such back luck with CCVPs who couldn't place a phone call even if we gave them a pay phone and a pocket full of change -- we won't even look at a voice job candidate unless they have voice experience on their resume AND we've had HR verify it. We're currently just "building our own" CCVPs from the old PBX/Telecomm guys/gals and existing CCNA/CCNPs to fill our Global Voice Team openings.

The entire reason I went for Certifications (I've been in IT 22 years now) was to increase the chances of my resume being pulled from a stack or selected from a database (since so many of my old bosses & coworkers are retired or dead and my "networking circle" is shrinking ).

Paul Boz wrote: »

So uh, they're a band, right?

1 point

btowntech wrote: »

I thought that was a fuel additive.

4 points