Question for the uber-geeks who have always loved computers.

seanw87

I think I'm a little late to this discussion, but I'd like to throw in my two cents regardless.

First off, to answer your initial question: yes, I think training for certifications is easier if you have a love for the subject. Now, if you don't care about the rest of my opinions you can stop reading right now.

We're essentially in the same boat - I also have loved and worked with computers all my life. I also hate school because of the general education classes. And I'm also having a difficult time breaking into the field.

One thing I've learned is that for most companies there is a stigma involved with having no degree. Even then it gets more complicated(http://www.techexams.net/forums/jobs-degrees/18955-would-you-hire-any-graduates-itt-tech-uop-devry.html). Obviously that isn't the stance of every employer, but I would say that a very large percentage of them will hardly give your resume a second look without any formal education. In a hypothetical situation where you have two candidates that are exactly the same in every aspect except for their education, I will guarantee you that the employer will chose the candidate with a degree over the candidate without.

Knowing this, I've decided to suck it up and go back to school for my degree. I know I'm going to hate some of the people and I know I'm going to hate some of the classes. However, in the long run I know it will be worth it. I recommend you do the same as me: just suck it up and get it over with as quickly as possible.

The only other point I have to make is about your attitude. Oftentimes there is a fine line between arrogance and confidence. It is obvious that you are confident in your abilities, however you come off as a very arrogant individual. I would recommend that you try to curb that before you go to the interview.

Good luck to you.

shednik

fleck wrote: »

Everyone I've ever known and worked with has been impressed with my knowledge on technical subjects. I can't think of a single family member or friend who didn't call me first when it came to computer problems. That's not to say that I can hack the planet or infiltrate a Gibson, but I did smurf suckas.

I've continued to lurk for the duration of the thread thus far and feel like I would like to speak up now as well. I don't know how old you are exactly I'm assuming in your 20s, but some of the ways you have express your thoughts come off in a very negative sense. I have been working in IT for about 3 1/2 years from a smaller company up to a global enterprise. You know what I have learned in that time period? A natural technical ability will only get you so far, a firm grasp on business and communication skills is what will get you farther technically and in the management realm. You may have been in some high level classes in High School and thats great. After finishing this program I would recommend some business and communication type courses to help round out your training.

I will comment on your training program you are enrolled in as well, and what I have seen in my experience. 10 years ago you could get a decent job w/o a degree much easier then in today's world. I know a lot of people who are successful without having a degree. However you are just getting started in your IT career. You said you have done freelance work for a number of years and thats great, but without have ANY expereince in a production envrionment for an extended period of time. Your current expereince will not help you as much as you are thinking. So to say I don't need a college degree and I hate school, to me I think you are only hurting yourself. There will be MANY doors closed because you didn't want to put the time in and work towards a degree. In a year or so you will come out of the program with CCENT A+ N+ and an MCSA/MCSE. Now thats a good amount of certifications but with no real server/network administration the certs aren't going to be as helpful as you think. You will still need to start out on the helpdesk taking calls and doing the work no one wants to do. After a few years you will be able to move up but its going to be much harder w/o the expereince or the degree to even get started. Like others I would reconsider your path and maybe look at an alternative. I know people who have been laughed at for going to technical schools. My current job I would have never gotten w/o my degree and I would still be unhappy if I had given up on my degree. You have nothing holding you back right now ie wife and kids....don't wait until you have that and then try to finish your degree. It makes things much more difficult so why waste your time now to try and take an easy way out. I'd think more of the long term rather then the short term. I know you'll probablt bash most of my post because you have done the same with others, but I think you should really sit down and ask yourself is this really what I want? I recommend maybe reconsidering your views of the Comm College in your area, I think you will find it will serve you much better and cost you MUCH less. IMHO

ccie15672

shednik wrote: »

So to say I don't need a college degree and I hate school, to me I think you are only hurting yourself. There will be MANY doors closed because you didn't want to put the time in and work towards a degree.

Agreed here. Even with CCIE (hopefully two after Friday), I will be going back to school for a two year degree in something like Business management or accounting. People ask "What is your alma mater?" and I say.. "I never finished my degree..." and almost every time the response is...


".....oh..... i see...."


It is important.

Bl8ckr0uter

ccie15672 wrote: »

Agreed here. Even with CCIE (hopefully two after Friday), I will be going back to school for a two year degree in something like Business management or accounting. People ask "What is your alma mater?" and I say.. "I never finished my degree..." and almost every time the response is...


".....oh..... i see...."


It is important.

I don't want to thread jack but if you have a CCIE and that is not enough then wtf is?

Seriously that is THEE certification to have to validate you Cisco Networking Knowledge and along with your other certs, you should have a killer CV. If that isn't enough then maybe I need to get a Ph.D as well as CCIE and JNCIE.

networker050184

knwminus wrote: »

I don't want to thread jack but if you have a CCIE and that is not enough then wtf is?

Seriously that is THEE certification to have to validate you Cisco Networking Knowledge and along with your other certs, you should have a killer CV. If that isn't enough then maybe I need to get a Ph.D as well as CCIE and JNCIE.

Certifications are not a replacement for a degree. They serve separate purposes.

Bl8ckr0uter

networker050184 wrote: »

Certifications are not a replacement for a degree. They serve separate purposes.

2 people are going for a job. It is a Network Engineer job. They both have the same amount of experience, knowledge/skillset and they are both likable, and they are generally as close to even as can be execpt 1 guy has an MBA and a M.C.S and the other guy has 4 CCIE (RS+S) and a JNCIE. Don't you think that the second person would be more likely to get that kind of job?

networker050184

knwminus wrote: »

2 people are going for a job. It is a Network Engineer job. They both have the same amount of experience, knowledge/skillset and they are both likable, and they are generally as close to even as can be execpt 1 guy has an MBA and a M.C.S and the other guy has 4 CCIE (RS+S) and a JNCIE. Don't you think that the second person would be more likely to get that kind of job?

Depends on if that company requires a degree or not. That guy with all the CCIEs might not even make it past a simple HR resume screen that checks for a degree.

sidsanders

knwminus wrote: »

2 people are going for a job. It is a Network Engineer job. They both have the same amount of experience, knowledge/skillset and they are both likable, and they are generally as close to even as can be execpt 1 guy has an MBA and a M.C.S and the other guy has 4 CCIE (RS+S) and a JNCIE. Don't you think that the second person would be more likely to get that kind of job?

i would think the cert would help/win out, however it depends on the employer. i had a job opp sent to me today that wanted exp with dhcp (why this alone, no idea)/windows/solaris/centos with a degree. no certs listed as required or desired.

fleck

networker050184 wrote: »

Depends on if that company requires a degree or not. That guy with all the CCIEs might not even make it past a simple HR resume screen that checks for a degree.

sidsanders wrote: »

i would think the cert would help/win out, however it depends on the employer. i had a job opp sent to me today that wanted exp with dhcp (why this alone, no idea)/windows/solaris/centos with a degree. no certs listed as required or desired.

That's what I'm getting at. I have seen very few tech jobs outright demanding a college degree. For the most part they'd rather have a proven track record of experience and knowledge. And I don't know how many of you are in charge of hiring but I keep hearing that for a market as demanding as the IT sector that certifications are starting to push degrees to the background. Not to say a degree doesn't make you look more impressive and improves your chances, but that it's really not necessary for those with the right skills.

If a company is looking for someone with a specific skill set usually attained and kept up-to-date mainly via certification, they will take a guy with the certification and no degree over the guy with a degree who has no specialized knowledge in what that company needs. Clearly, both are a power punch, and it's not like I fail to see that.

But it's all about needs and wants. I don't see the reason to get condescending over someone's dislike of college or lack of want to go to one. I've spent the last 9 years of my life avoiding a higher education, dammit, it's my legacy!

Bl8ckr0uter

networker050184 wrote: »

Depends on if that company requires a degree or not. That guy with all the CCIEs might not even make it past a simple HR resume screen that checks for a degree.

Wow.

The way I view the cert/degree relationship is this:

Degrees:
Are found general, high-level, non-real world types of knowledge. Example: A person with a degree might know what the osi model is, and where a cisco router fits into the equation.

Certifications:
Are specific, low-level, "real world" (real word as the vender sees it) knowledge. Example:
A person with a CCNA or CCXP should know the osi model, cisco model , how to enable protocols, at layers 1+2, security, etc.

Now mind you I am after both and I am not against degrees nor am I saying people with degrees don't have real world knowledge.
Wouldn't an HR person want someone with "real-world" knowledge?

networker050184

You are assuming this HR person knows anything about technology. They may just know that degrees are required period.

sidsanders

knwminus wrote: »

Wow.

The way I view the cert/degree relationship is this:

Degrees:
Are found general, high-level, non-real world types of knowledge. Example: A person with a degree might know what the osi model is, and where a cisco router fits into the equation.

Certifications:
Are specific, low-level, "real world" (real word as the vender sees it) knowledge. Example:
A person with a CCNA or CCXP should know the osi model, cisco model , how to enable protocols, at layers 1+2, security, etc.

Now mind you I am after both and I am not against degrees nor am I saying people with degrees don't have real world knowledge.
Wouldn't an HR person want someone with "real-world" knowledge?

keep in mind that with so many folks getting certified, you have many folks who carry titles who havent touched the stuff in production support/deployment. the "correct" answer to me is get what you can. degree, cert, exp (winner!!), and anything else legit that will help.

we interviewed several folks who had mcse, comptia certs, even ccnp for desktop positions. some had degrees. most were just entering the field. the person who won out had the most exp, and did the best in the int process.

not directed at anyone: i hope this doesnt go the way of the itt/devry/uop thread... there is no one way to do this. we are tech folks. given the tools we have, how can we find all these diff solutions using various operating systems/hw/etc and cling to notions that only one way exists to make it in the tech world???

MrNetTek

A HR person, an organization...they want it all. They want degreed, certified, letters of recommendation, professional grace, political diplomacy, hard skills, soft skills, extremely knowledgeable, flexible and cheap...you will most likely never live up to all their expectations. What you have to do is live up to your expectations. Make goals and accomplish them...have dreams and achieve them. No more, no less.
If you’re the type of person who hates class rooms and long term goals…maybe certs are better for you, because you can reach shorter milestones quicker. If you’re the type of person who likes setting long term goals and working diligently towards the end, then a degree isn’t so bad. If you’re the type of person that doesn’t really know what they want to do, I recommend taking some time to figure it out. Life is way too short to stack up student loans against your credit, to waste time with certs in a field you may not even want to be in. Contrary to popular belief, IT isn’t an easy field. The people who have the knowledge don’t usually give it out so easily. The people who want the knowledge usually find it extremely difficult to get in.
As far as the questions “Do nerds make better IT Professionals,” the answer is yes. Many times their knowledge is so extensive, it even amazes me. They are usually willing to make sacrifices that some of us may not make. Sacrifices like losing night after night of sleep, not spending time with friends and family, and the most important one-their health.
My advice for all the newbies out there, stop expecting big money when you haven’t earned the experience for it. Ask any technical person, who has had 10 years or more experience, how easy it was at the beginning. Most of them have horror stories, certified and degreed alike. May the force be with you. MrNetTek (aka Eddie Jackson)

knwminus wrote: »

Wow.

The way I view the cert/degree relationship is this:

Degrees:
Are found general, high-level, non-real world types of knowledge. Example: A person with a degree might know what the osi model is, and where a cisco router fits into the equation.

Certifications:
Are specific, low-level, "real world" (real word as the vender sees it) knowledge. Example:
A person with a CCNA or CCXP should know the osi model, cisco model , how to enable protocols, at layers 1+2, security, etc.

Now mind you I am after both and I am not against degrees nor am I saying people with degrees don't have real world knowledge.
Wouldn't an HR person want someone with "real-world" knowledge?

mikej412

knwminus wrote: »

I don't want to thread jack but if you have a CCIE and that is not enough then wtf is?

This is the "magic formula"

JDMurray wrote: »

(Experience + Certs + Education + Who you know) * Luck = really good career opportunity

All those things combined may give you an opportunity -- but if you show up to a job interview smelling like an old sweat sock (or with the personality of a smelly old sweat sock) you can probably kiss that one specific opportunity goodbye.

shednik

fleck wrote: »

But it's all about needs and wants. I don't see the reason to get condescending over someone's dislike of college or lack of want to go to one. I've spent the last 9 years of my life avoiding a higher education, dammit, it's my legacy!

The only reason I saw that you don't want to goto college is this below

I hate NORMAL schools. Community colleges filled with cheerleaders and dumb little dipshiis and script kiddies. That's what I hate. I know that the tech school I'm going to is my kind of place, otherwise I wouldn't be going.

I don't really want to say what that comment makes me think of your attitude and I'll leave it at that. I think thats a terrible excuse for not pursuing a degree. Like others have said its not something you would expect coming from an aspiring IT professional who says his soft skills are up to par. But whatever I'm done trying to give any advice to you about anything because you've shown over and over that your attitude is you're right and we're wrong. Not to be rude but it's funny you are trying to tell us what employers want when most of the people who gave you advice are already deep into the field. I think you should really want advice and thoughts before asking, that is why people gave you a bad rating. You have a bit of a I know it all attitude.

fleck

All you did was judge me. Poorly. Plain and simple I think. Thanks.

shednik

fleck wrote: »

All you did was judge me. Poorly. Plain and simple I think. Thanks.

You've pretty much bashed anyone's advice like I said there is a reason people told you why they thought you are making a mistake. Because they have been in the industry and you are just getting started.

fleck

shednik wrote: »

You've pretty much bashed anyone's advice like I said there is a reason people told you why they thought you are making a mistake. Because they have been in the industry and you are just getting started.

Wrong. When people weren't bashing me for saying that I didn't like college, everything was fine. After that, I started receiving unsolicited and sometimes condescending advice. Most of you guys need to start paying better attention to the threads you're posting in, seriously.

mikej412

fleck wrote: »

After that, I started receiving unsolicited and sometimes condescending advice.

Actually, I thought there was a BUNCH of GREAT advice posted in this thread.