Yet another question about 2003 vs 2008 Microsoft certs

trmiv

Sorry if this question comes up a lot, mine may be a little different. Just looking for some direction. I've been a desktop support tech for the past 7 years, and before that I did software support for 3 years. I have a BS in management information systems. I'm trying to break into the server side of things, and recently almost had a new job at my company as an entry level systems administrator, but they went with someone (who was also a desktop support tech) older with a little more experience. It was apparently close, but the certs and a bit more experience won out in the end. I really don't want that to happen again if a similar opportunity comes up within my company. I'd also like to be prepared for possible opportunities elsewhere once the job market picks up.

There are a few certs I want, but I figured a good place to start would be the Microsoft server certs, and then go from there with more specialized ones. I know they are in the process of upgrading some of our servers here to 2008, and I know some of the people in the server group are studying to take the MCITP on 2008, so that would seem the best one to go for. But I know a lot of other companies are still on 2003 and will be for quite awhile. Although I feel my best chance to get the position I want is internal, I don't want to limit myself by getting a 2008 cert when a lot of companies outside of my own are still looking for 2003. I haven't started study for either one yet, so I'm just looking for a direction to go. I'm ready to pull out the credit card today and buy a few books to get started on this journey. BTW I'm looking at getting the MCSA or the MCITP:SA.

dynamik

Go for an MCSE if you're going to do anything. Hardly anyone knows what the MCITP is, and the MCSA doesn't carry much weight either. Trust me, I just came from a round of job interviews, and I really expected a lot of the people I talked to to be better informed. Same is true for the CCENT.

Welcome to the forums

trmiv

See that's the thing, the people here at my company definetely know what the MCITP is, so it would certainly help me here. I think regardless of which one I went for I'd go for the MCSA or the SA first to at least get a cert, and then take the extra exams to get the EA or the MCSE. If I did the MCSA I'd take 70-620 as my client exam, and 70-431 as my elective.

dynamik

So you're not looking at jobs outside of your company? You'll get the MCSA on the way to the MCSE; I'm just saying don't stop there.

If you have an MCSE (assuming you used 620 as part of that), you'll need an upgrade and a pro exam for either the SA or the EA, so it doesn't really make sense to do the SA instead. That's the route I took. YMMV.

trmiv

Oh no, I'd definitely look outside as well, that's where the complication is. My best shot is an internal opportunity, and I know 2008 would really help on that because we're moving that direction. But it seems that the advice overall is to go for 2003 right now because so many companies are still on 2003. I guess I'm just trying to figure out if knowing 2008 is applicable at my company makes it worth pursuing even though it may not help me much externally (yet). Kind of a hard question to answer I guess, I'm just trying to figure out what to do before I drop a bunch of money on books and videos. It's a big step to make because it's not cheap!

veritas_libertas

trmiv wrote: »

Oh no, I'd definitely look outside as well, that's where the complication is. My best shot is an internal opportunity, and I know 2008 would really help on that because we're moving that direction. But it seems that the advice overall is to go for 2003 right now because so many companies are still on 2003. I guess I'm just trying to figure out if knowing 2008 is applicable at my company makes it worth pursuing even though it may not help me much externally (yet). Kind of a hard question to answer I guess, I'm just trying to figure out what to do before I drop a bunch of money on books and videos. It's a big step to make because it's not cheap!

If you go MCSE than all you have to take is two more exams to be MCITP:EA.

trmiv

That's true. If I did the MCSE route I'd go:

70-620
70-290
70-291
70-431

which would give me an MCSA

and then

70-293
70-294
70-297

to complete MCSE

dynamik

Have you been doing desktop support for that company for seven years? It doesn't sound like they're helping much with career development.

trmiv

No, only two at this company. You're right about the career development though, they don't do much for us desktop people. The other groups do get it, I know some of the guys on the server side and they have gotten classes, free books, videos, etc. Meanwhile our manager has been promising a certain class for a year and it's never happened.

skrpune

trmiv wrote: »

No, only two at this company. You're right about the career development though, they don't do much for us desktop people. The other groups do get it, I know some of the guys on the server side and they have gotten classes, free books, videos, etc. Meanwhile our manager has been promising a certain class for a year and it's never happened.

Yeah, I hear you - where I work, there was a push from our former manager to get people certified, but talking about it was where it ended. No classes, no training, no vouchers, etc. I came into the team there as the only certified person, and I'm continuing to get certs on my own since I'd never get them if I waited around for these folks! Certs, among some other things, have gotten me noticed by upper management and there's talk of transfers and promotions...so while certs aren't the end all be all of career development, they sure as hell don't hurt.

As for what certs to go for...I'd have to agree with others here and say that MCSA/MCSE is certainly more desirable on the open market than MCITP right now. The MCSE first then MCITP track would probably work out best for you in the long run, and it's not like all the basic principles from Server 2003 won't still apply in 2008 - sure, there will be changes in the details and features, but the basics of how to administer a server environment are still the same.

trmiv

Thanks for the help guys, you've made my decision easier. Yesterday I was ready to buy the first set of books for starting the MCSA and then stopped and starting thinking about MCITP and then couldn't make up my mind. I think I'm going to go the MCSA -> MCSE route.

Paul Boz

While Server 2003 is going to continue to be utilized throughout the world for quite some time, I don't know why you would want to certify on something that's already being phased out. I would go with the newest cert they offer because it will provide more longevity for the effort. Employers are going to be looking for server 2008 admins en masse in the next few years as they phase out their 2003 servers.

dynamik

I'm speaking from strictly an HR perspective. Unfortunately, MCITP doesn't have the ring that MCSE does

Hyper-Me

Microsoft needs to retire the MCSE and send out a mass email to the world.

trmiv

Paul Boz wrote: »

While Server 2003 is going to continue to be utilized throughout the world for quite some time, I don't know why you would want to certify on something that's already being phased out. I would go with the newest cert they offer because it will provide more longevity for the effort. Employers are going to be looking for server 2008 admins en masse in the next few years as they phase out their 2003 servers.

That does make sense, and that is what makes this a tough decision. Because I honestly don't know how long it's going to take me to get this. I'd like to have my MCSE within 9 months to a year. But there are always life things that get in the way so what if it goes longer and I'm into late 2011 still trying to get a 2003 cert? Not good.

Hyper-Me

trmiv wrote: »

That does make sense, and that is what makes this a tough decision. Because I honestly don't know how long it's going to take me to get this. I'd like to have my MCSE within 9 months to a year. But there are always life things that get in the way so what if it goes longer and I'm into late 2011 still trying to get a 2003 cert? Not good.

I would expect the MCSE core tests to retire as early as March 2011. I have no way to prove this, but its just a guess.

Regardless of when, you better make certain that you can pass the 7 required exams before they are retired. It would suck to get halfway through and then get cut off.

Plantwiz

dynamik wrote: »

I'm speaking from strictly an HR perspective. Unfortunately, MCITP doesn't have the ring that MCSE does

Agreed.

Not sure what they were dreaming when they named it. A good part of being able to market it and make it sound 'cool' is to have it memorable as well as easy to quickly say

Bet they had 15 of their best marketeers dreaming up the remaining of their cert levels.

Paul Boz

I think you guys are over-rating the value of MCSE versus MCITP based on name alone. Getting a cert for the name before the value of the material is wrong 10/10 times. If the company that you're applying for is so narrow-sighted that they don't understand the value of an MCITP that's their problem, not yours. Don't get a cert to make some dumb HR folks happy. Get the cert to prove your technical competency.

dynamik

I'm in no way arguing with any of that. However, you need to get your foot in the door too. I think it's incredibly stupid, but that doesn't change the way it is. If you're looking to make your resume stand out, I still feel like the MCSE will give you the best ROI.

I'd tell him to definitely go for the MCITP alone if If he's looking to move up in his company or knows the other companies he's looking at will respect that.

veritas_libertas

dynamik wrote: »

I'm in no way arguing with any of that. However, you need to get your foot in the door too. I think it's incredibly stupid, but that doesn't change the way it is. If you're looking to make your resume stand out, I still feel like the MCSE will give you the best ROI.

I'd tell him to definitely go for the MCITP alone if If he's looking to move up in his company or knows the other companies he's looking at will respect that.

There is also the fact that 2003 is still the predominant server out there. It is going to be that way for quite while. My company still has NT servers in some locations. There is no hurry for us to move to 2008 anytime soon.

Hyper-Me

veritas_libertas wrote: »

There is also the fact that 2003 is still the predominant server out there. It is going to be that way for quite while. My company still has NT servers in some locations. There is no hurry for us to move to 2008 anytime soon.

and some places, like where i work, have standardized on Server 2008 from now on (as of june). Not every company is like yours.

IT Pros need to cert on what the potential employer needs, be it NT Server or 2008 Server.

veritas_libertas

Hyper-Me wrote: »

and some places, like where i work, have standardized on Server 2008 from now on (as of june). Not every company is like yours.

IT Pros need to cert on what the potential employer needs, be it NT Server or 2008 Server.

I'm not arguing against that, I just think MCSE and two tests is a better way. Thats all.

Piers

If your best bet is to stay internal, and they know what a MCITP is, perhaps starting on the MCSA track is the best start and when the time comes, you can decide whether to continue on for the MCSE *or* write the upgrade exam (70-64 and with one more test after that (646) be the MCITP:SA that you talked about.. The MCSE will be three more tests, plus the same upgrade tests, to get to the same place.. and in the time it takes to do all that, who knows where technology will be?

trmiv

OK now I'm back on the fence again! Both sides of this make sense, which is why it's a hard decision.

veritas_libertas

trmiv wrote: »

OK now I'm back on the fence again! Both sides of this make sense, which is why it's a hard decision.

I know the feeling... I have compared both options, so I at last said I would just do it all. I want to have a resume that draws all avenues since I am looking to get into SysAdmin work within the next couple of years.

dynamik

You also need to try to determine how long it's going to take you to complete either track and guess what the landscape will look like at that point.

trmiv

dynamik wrote: »

You also need to try to determine how long it's going to take you to complete either track and guess what the landscape will look like at that point.

Yea that's the big one. I think realistically with everything else I have going on completing either MCSE or MCITP: EA is going to take me a year to year and a half. So that's into 2011 on the long end. I don't know if I want to still be working on my MCSE in 2011.

lumbercis

This suggestion may be controversial, but if the point is just to make dumb HR people happy, why not get the MCITP and list it on your resume as "MCITP (MCSE)" or "MCITP/MCSE" or even "MCITP (MCSE 2008 )." If someone asks just say that you added MCSE for those that aren't familiar with the latest Microsoft terminology for their server certs.

If you are interviewing with the actual techs, just tell them you put it on there because most HR guys don't recognize MCITP and they will probably understand.

I am generally on the side of going for the MCITP as the latest cert as Boz suggested.

skrpune

lumbercis wrote: »

This suggestion may be controversial, but if the point is just to make dumb HR people happy, why not get the MCITP and list it on your resume as "MCITP (MCSE)" or "MCITP/MCSE" or even "MCITP (MCSE 2008 )." If someone asks just say that you added MCSE for those that aren't familiar with the latest Microsoft terminology for their server certs.

If you are interviewing with the actual techs, just tell them you put it on there because most HR guys don't recognize MCITP and they will probably understand.

I am generally on the side of going for the MCITP as the latest cert as Boz suggested.

BWOOP BWOOP BWOOP! If I saw that on a resume, it'd set off sirens and immediately land it in the trash pile.

It's a big big big no-no to lie on your resume, and misrepresenting your qualifications falls into the lie category. You don't want your first introduction to the company to start you off on the wrong foot. And if someone with tech knowledge looks at your resume, they'll either assume you're lying about what certs you have (not good) or that you have no clue what those certs/letters mean (not good either). Lose-lose situation in my book.

trmiv

I have to say my decision is no clearer now than it was before I started this thread.

impelse

I would say take the MCSA and later upgrade to 2008 (both certification), so you know the basic in windows 2003 administration and Infrastructure, including 2008. Eventually HR will get 2008.

Six month ago nobody show in Dice, Craigslist, etc anything about Server 2008 certification, but just the last three weeks a saw some adds asking for MCSE and/or MCITP, so is becoming popular.

Depend of your exp and dedication you will get MCSA in 4 to 6 month (or more) and later go for MCITP (some other months), you get 1 year or more just with that (if you pass at your first try, jajajaaja)