MCM, is it worth it?

RobertKaucher

Has anyone here attempted or considered the MCM program? What are your opinions about it (even if you have not participated in it)? It seems like a lot of $$ to invest in a certification.

GAngel

RobertKaucher wrote: »

Has anyone here attempted or considered the MCM program? What are your opinions about it (even if you have not participated in it)? It seems like a lot of $$ to invest in a certification.

I've never heard of anyone doing it. Unless my company paid for it which they wouldn't there's no chance I'd ever spend 18k+ on any cert unless I was guaranteed to get a massive raise. And MS are shooting themselves ni the foot because you're a master of a specific technology only until it's outdated then it's another 18k every 5 years or so?

They don't advertise it and companies don't ask for it so i'm not sure what the point of it is besides being a cash grab of epic proportions.

RobertKaucher

What I find annoying is there is no higher level cert than MCSE/MCITP. If you look at Cisco, they have the CCENT and CCNA as well as the CCNP and CCIE. For Cisco professionals it provides you with not only an entry level cert but also mid and expert level. I would find something like the MCM very attractive if the cost were not so high. I understand that the hands-on, "peer-reviewed" aspect means it is going to cost some cash, but I don't believe I should have to invest nearly a years sallary in it. I mean with travel costs, etc we are talking close to $30G to complete this damn cert. Not being a consultant who can increase his billable rate 30%, I just see no value in this for me. But I want something else. I would like a cert that is a step up from the MCSE/MCITP.

GAngel

RobertKaucher wrote: »

What I find annoying is there is no higher level cert than MCSE/MCITP. If you look at Cisco, they have the CCENT and CCNA as well as the CCNP and CCIE. For Cisco professionals it provides you with not only an entry level cert but also mid and expert level. I would find something like the MCM very attractive if the cost were not so high. I understand that the hands-on, "peer-reviewed" aspect means it is going to cost some cash, but I don't believe I should have to invest nearly a years sallary in it. I mean with travel costs, etc we are talking close to $30G to complete this damn cert. Not being a consultant who can increase his billable rate 30%, I just see no value in this for me. But I want something else. I would like a cert that is a step up from the MCSE/MCITP.

I believe it goes MCSE/MCM/MCA which is like $25k
YOu would think that the MCM would be the mid level cert since you need 5 years experience and the MCA needs 10. I would pay up to 5k for the MCM if it were coming out of my pocket and if it had some credibility. The MCA is just another joke half of them work for microsoft because nobody else could or would pay that money.

RobertKaucher

Yes, I know that MS considers the MCM/MCA as their higher level certs but it's not really apples to apples, though. I mean who would pay close to $15K + travel/hotel + over 2 weeks of lost wages to attain their CCNP? And like you said, there is little knowledge or credibility behind it. It just aggravates me that it is out of my reach due to money, not because I could not attain the knowledge or level of experience required.

Paul Boz

Is there a metric out there that lists how many individuals hold the MCM?

blargoe

The only people out there getting MCMs and MCAs are big-time consultants and consulting firms, the guys designing solutions for huge enterprises. They can command top dollar for their services if they hold these credentials. There's a great MCM/MCA blog out there somewhere that I have bookmarked if I can find it... I forget which computer it's on.

For the lay-administrator and even the small/medium systems architect, MCA is probably overkill and might not even pay for itself in the long term.... IMO

RobertKaucher

Microsoft Learning: Go Further with Microsoft Certification

MCMs number in the 10s. Only MCM on Exchange 2003 has numbers above 100.

Claymoore

I would love the opportunity to attend an MCM Exchange rotation and have expressed that interest to my employer. There is still much I feel I need to learn before I am ready for a rotation, but the training offerred would be worth the effort beforehand. This isn't the type of training where you write a check and go - you must submit your resume and be accepted to the program before you can attend.

Cost is also a problem. Not only is the training $18,500 before any discounts, but you also have to pay for travel to Redmond for three weeks. That's also three weeks not billing, so the true cost is probably closer to $40,000.

That's tough to swallow unless your company has a need for consultants at that high level. If you look over at the MS Master Blog you will notice that most of the attendees are MS employees while only a few are partners. The fastest way to generate that market need for MCMs would be for MS to change the partnership requirements and start requiring partners to employ MCMs, much like Cisco has CCIE requirements for their partners. IMHO, that won't happen for some time until there are more MCMs to fill those slots. I doubt MS wants to risk losing some of their top engineers to partners or be forced to increase their salaries to keep them.

It would be nice to have an MS cert that competes with the CCIE for prestige (and salary).

RobertKaucher

Yes! I agree. But I think there should be something closer to the CCNP, a step above MCSE or MCITP. I don't know... I still think that the average person could attain the CCIE if they put in the time/effort and cash. I don't think the average person will be able to attain the MCM, ever, unless sponsored by their employer. I think that is foolish on the part of MS. I don't believe the thing that makes the CCIE so prestigeous is the cost. It's the ammount of knowledge and effort that one needs to put into it. I think what will stop most people from even considering the MCM is just the money.

Claymoore

RobertKaucher wrote: »

I don't believe the thing that makes the CCIE so prestigeous is the cost. It's the ammount of knowledge and effort that one needs to put into it.

To take that one step further, it's the knowledge and experience one gains while pursuing the CCIE that makes the certification so valuable to employers and customers. The CCIE program has 15 or so years of history demonstrating that engineers who hold CCIEs are some of the very best in their field. When you hire or contract with a CCIE, you know that your network is in good hands. We know the CCIE has value to employers so we are willing to put the effort in for the eventual reward.

The Master program is only new in name. It is a descendant of the Microsoft Ranger program which was an MS internal only program. Later Ranger rotations were opened up to select large partners and eventually the program was split into the MCA and MCM and made available to the public. The public program is still new and hasn't attained the recognition of the CCIE, but there are signs it's starting to.

As for the effort required, check out the prerequisites for the MCM on Exchange 2010:

• Five or more years of hands-on experience with Microsoft Exchange Server 2003: installing, configuring, and troubleshooting
• Three or more years of hands-on experience with Microsoft Exchange Server 2007: installing, configuring, and troubleshooting
• One or more years of hands-on experience with Microsoft Exchange Server 2010: installing, configuring, and troubleshooting
• Thorough understanding of Microsoft Exchange Server design and architecture
• Thorough understanding of Active Directory, Domain Name System (DNS), and other core network services related to Exchange Server
• Ability to speak, understand, and write fluent English

• Exam 70-662
  In development
• Exam 70-663
  In development
  And one of the following:
  <LI sizset="122" sizcache="15">Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer (MCSE) on Windows Server 2003
  or
• Exam 70-640

Ok, so substituting the lone 640 exam for the entire 2003 MCSE track is a little odd, but that's still quite a list. 9 years of combined experience across 3 product versions plus additional exams just to get accepted into the program is serious effort. Then there's the three weeks of training, a few additional written exams and a lab practical before you can call yourself an MCM.

Back to your original question - is it worth it? If I am paying for it on my own - no. If my company is paying for it - absolutely. If more customers start listing an MCM as a requirement on RFPs then companies will be forced to hire MCMs if they want to bid. If Microsoft starts to require partners to have a certain number of MCMs on staff then this will be a very hot certification.

Until either of those happen it will likely be a couple of years before the MCM has value based on reputation alone. Hopefully by then the price will come down and other training venues will be available for the people trying to pursue this on their own.

Hyper-Me

Claymoore wrote: »

One or more years of hands-on experience with Microsoft Exchange Server 2010: installing, configuring, and troubleshooting.

How can you require a minimum of 1 year experience on something thats only been in BETA for a couple of months??


Anyway, I'd love to see a credential that was in between MCITP and MCM. Perhaps something that required a lab practical and/or some inclusion of actual real-world accomplishments at work with the technology.

dynamik

Hyper-Me wrote: »

How can you require a minimum of 1 year experience on something thats only been in BETA for a couple of months??

By waiting until the product has been out for a year

blargoe

Considering it's internal Microsoft employees mainly, who probably are already MCM on 2007, they probably already have a year with what is now Exchange 2010

Turgon

RobertKaucher wrote: »

Yes! I agree. But I think there should be something closer to the CCNP, a step above MCSE or MCITP. I don't know... I still think that the average person could attain the CCIE if they put in the time/effort and cash. I don't think the average person will be able to attain the MCM, ever, unless sponsored by their employer. I think that is foolish on the part of MS. I don't believe the thing that makes the CCIE so prestigeous is the cost. It's the ammount of knowledge and effort that one needs to put into it. I think what will stop most people from even considering the MCM is just the money.

Not that CCIE's are demi-gods or anything but on the whole most CCIE's are not average people in this respect. Time, effort and cash is no guarantee of crossing the CCIE for average people Im afraid.

RobertKaucher

Turgon wrote: »

Not that CCIE's are demi-gods or anything but on the whole most CCIE's are not average people in this respect. Time, effort and cash is no guarantee of crossing the CCIE for average people Im afraid.

No, I can agree with this. My intention with the term average is more at "of average means." I could attempt the CCIE if I chose to. There is no way I could attempt the MCM as I do not have $20K + expenses to drop on it. I'm sure that if the CCNPs had to drop $20K just to be eligible for the CCIE we would see far fewer CCIEs in the world today than we do. And this 20K would not include the time, energy and materials used in getting yourself up to the level where you would do well BEFORE you enter the program nor the three weeks of missed work for your attempt.

Turgon

RobertKaucher wrote: »

No, I can agree with this. My intention with the term average is more at "of average means." I could attempt the CCIE if I chose to. There is no way I could attempt the MCM as I do not have $20K + expenses to drop on it. I'm sure that if the CCNPs had to drop $20K just to be eligible for the CCIE we would see far fewer CCIEs in the world today than we do. And this 20K would not include the time, energy and materials used in getting yourself up to the level where you would do well BEFORE you enter the program nor the three weeks of missed work for your attempt.

I see what you mean. Well a lot of CCNPs have certainly dropped lots of money by the time they embark on the IE journey. I take it by three weeks off work you are talking about the MCM? For the IE you need a few days for the testing experience but any prep on works time plus evenings and weekends would certainly add up to more than three weeks prep. I know one candidate who cleared in a few months but he was fresh off CCNP and was a daily uber configurator on an SP network with some window on works time to prepare as well as many nights and weekends put in on the study front. In terms of CCIE numbers they are up on previous years and we have a hell of a lot more students these days. I put that down to the track being more accessible these days because of dynamips and competition between training vendors. More testing centres and one day labs also provides a higher churn than earier years.

More people than ever before can afford to have a crack at it. I recall in 2003 dropping over 700 dollars for a single used router with an ISDN BRI interface and I certainly couldn't afford a Cisco terminal server so went with a Xyplex (which I still use)

It's also a track that is less arcane and has grown in popular profile over the years. Again marketing by the vendors. This has all brought more CCIE candidates to the party.

It still adds up though. When I add up equipment, rack hire, books and workbooks it's certainly several thousands of dollars and climbing. Test expense is pending too!

20K is a lot of money though so point taken there.

tenrou

The MCM is too restricted in it's implimentation. I have never seen a job list it as a requirement while I have seen plenty list the CCIE.

Also I think the CCNP and the MCSE are fairly similar in difficulty, it kind of pisses me off that they're not similar in stature because you can go buy an MCSE on a trip to south asia . I actually know of someone who did this. I can only speak about the BCMSN because it's the exam I'm working on at the momment but there doesn't seem to be a huge amount of content to take in. I may change my tune on the ICSW or ONT, although I'm tempted to wait until they change to troubleshoot.