Tuition reimbursement question

briangl

If a company pays for education with the stipulation that the person stay for a certain amount of time after completing said education but, the person leaves the company immediately after completing the education, what can the company do? What would a company likely do?

veritas_libertas

briangl wrote: »

If a company pays for education with the stipulation that the person stay for a certain amount of time after completing said education but, the person leaves the company immediately after completing the education, what can the company do? What would a company likely do?

Make you pay it all back.

networker050184

veritas_libertas wrote: »

Make you pay it all back.

Yep that is what they will do. I'm sure the person had to sign a contract before getting the funds from the company that outlined what would happen in the event of you leaving. At least the ones I have singed have.

tpatt100

I had this happen to me my very first job. They send you a letter asking for the money back. But I have heard of companies taking it out of your last check since they check admin stuff as part of your outprocessing.

They will probably just send it to collections i guess which was the reason I just sent them a check

briangl

veritas_libertas wrote: »

Make you pay it all back.

How would they do that?

dynamik

As noted above, collections.

briangl

tpatt100 wrote: »

I had this happen to me my very first job. They send you a letter asking for the money back. But I have heard of companies taking it out of your last check since they check admin stuff as part of your outprocessing.

They will probably just send it to collections i guess which was the reason I just sent them a check

One can not squeeze blood out of a turnip. If I don’t have it I don’t have it, which is why I am looking at the possibility of tuition reimbursement. I wouldn’t have any problem with staying the specified amount of time but, I wouldn’t have any guarantee of being moved into the IT department. I’ve practically been begging for over 3 years as it is. That is the only way I would want to stay. I have been trying to get out of this company for a long time.

networker050184

If you don't plan on staying then don't take the money.

veritas_libertas

briangl wrote: »

One can not squeeze blood out of a turnip. If I don’t have it I don’t have it, which is why I am looking at the possibility of tuition reimbursement. I wouldn’t have any problem with staying the specified amount of time but, I wouldn’t have any guarantee of being moved into the IT department. I’ve practically been begging for over 3 years as it is. That is the only way I would want to stay. I have been trying to get out of this company for a long time.

Unfortunately it is what it is. On the other hand, there has to be some sort of set time. Like you have to stay for at least 5 years if we pay for these certs.

dynamik

Even if you can't pay it back and they ultimately don't get anything, you'll destroy your credit.

veritas_libertas

networker050184 wrote: »

If you don't plan on staying then don't take the money.

Bingo

tpatt100

It's normally 12 months after the date of payment. So each class or cert starts a new date for that particular reimbursement. My new company has it and I plan on using it next semester but I plan on being here for several years.

networker050184

dynamik wrote: »

Even if you can't pay it back and they ultimately don't get anything, you'll destroy your credit.

And good luck getting a good reference from them for future jobs if you never pay them.

Zartanasaurus

networker050184 wrote: »

If you don't plan on staying then don't take the money.

This .

arwes

My last employer would pay for you to go off for like a CCNA or MCSE boot camp, but you also had to stay there three years after it or else you pay it all back. Don't mess with it if you don't want to stay with the company.

/usr

One can not squeeze blood out of a turnip. If I don’t have it I don’t have it, which is why I am looking at the possibility of tuition reimbursement. I wouldn’t have any problem with staying the specified amount of time but, I wouldn’t have any guarantee of being moved into the IT department. I’ve practically been begging for over 3 years as it is. That is the only way I would want to stay. I have been trying to get out of this company for a long time.

I bet to differ. A collection agency and a lawyer, I would imagine, can squeeze a lot harder than you may think. Even if you don't end up paying, like others mentioned, you will absolutely destroy your credit which may hinder you in future endeavors.

If you know you can stick it out, then go for it as it's an amazing opportunity to get an education. If you don't know whether or not you can, then be wary and keep in mind that leaving prematurely will come back to bite you if you can't pay.

By the way: I have experience in this matter. I was reimbursed for a few quarters tuition during my first "real" IT job. I left the company before a year after my last reimbursement and the money was not withheld from my final paycheck. I let it go and it was a good year later when I received a certified letter in the mail, stating that if the money was not paid back it would be turned over to collections. That was enough for me, so I paid the money back.

briangl

Yeah, that’s why I haven’t done it. I guess my only hope is finding a job somewhere decent. I can continue certs. on my own but, any formal education is out of the picture for the foreseeable future. I managed to get some financial aid to go through the Cisco Net Acad program but had to put about half on our credit card, not a good way to finance an education. I just thought the investment was going to pay off a little faster.

eMeS

A lot of misinformation in this thread.

Also, I'll add that is a pretty bad idea to come to an IT certification board looking for legal advice....

First, it all depends on state law whether or not a company can require repayment for training or education if an employee leaves. In many states employers have no legal ability to recover money spent on training and education.

More often than not, employers think that they can do this, but legally there is no basis for recovering training and other costs from former employees. It is also very foolish for companies to make such an agreement, as it could be used as an indication of a specified term or contract for employment for a period of time. Another very real possibility is differential treatment of employees in different jurisdictions.

I personally know someone that was sued by an employer for training reimbursement because he left the job before 12 months were up. He won the case.

Second, it is a violation of FLSA for an employer to make unauthorized deductions from a final paycheck. It is on you to return all company equipment, and they can send you a bill for it, but they cannot legally withhold wages.

Third, regarding references, legally what an employer can verify are your dates of service, positions held, and whether or not you are eligible for rehire. However, the point is well taken that individuals may not be willing to provide a reference.

Finally, if they send you a letter threatening collections, etc.. tell them to go fly a kite. There is very likely no legal right to do this based on the initial agreement being invalid, again depending on the specific legal jurisdiction where the agreement was made. Additionally, you have no contract or agreement with the collection agency, and you can easily win that battle.

I do think there is something to be said for living up to your commitments, however, I think the issue of integrity is a sword that cuts both ways.

My personal opinion, training and education is a risk that an employer takes. Many times it pays off, however, you don't get a "do-over" for those times that it doesn't. Still, I can send letters all day long to anyone asking for reimbursement for some imaginary debt that I have no right to collect. There are always people that will pay those things whether they should have or not.

Now, someone start a thread about my next favorite topic, employers creating their own "tests" in order to vet people for employment.

MS

laidbackfreak

eMeS wrote: »

Now, someone start a thread about my next favorite topic, employers creating their own "tests" in order to vet people for employment.

MS

ooh that sounds like a good un, go on do it....

briangl

eMeS wrote: »

A lot of misinformation in this thread.

Also, I'll add that is a pretty bad idea to come to an IT certification board looking for legal advice....

Yeah, wasn't really looking for legal advice, more like personal experience.

Thank you for the comprehensive post. Personally, I would not take anything from this company just because I wouldn’t want to feel like I owed them anything, legally or morally.

For as little as they pay me and me having been a hard working reliable employee for over 5 years, I would think that some sort of leeway would be made as far as how much more time they would want out of me. That and the fact that they will not move me into the IT dept. I would be stuck in this extremely mundane, low level job for an additional year.

tpatt100

eMeS wrote: »

A lot of misinformation in this thread.

Also, I'll add that is a pretty bad idea to come to an IT certification board looking for legal advice....

First, it all depends on state law whether or not a company can require repayment for training or education if an employee leaves. In many states employers have no legal ability to recover money spent on training and education.

More often than not, employers think that they can do this, but legally there is no basis for recovering training and other costs from former employees. It is also very foolish for companies to make such an agreement, as it could be used as an indication of a specified term or contract for employment for a period of time. Another very real possibility is differential treatment of employees in different jurisdictions.

I personally know someone that was sued by an employer for training reimbursement because he left the job before 12 months were up. He won the case.

Second, it is a violation of FLSA for an employer to make unauthorized deductions from a final paycheck. It is on you to return all company equipment, and they can send you a bill for it, but they cannot legally withhold wages.

Third, regarding references, legally what an employer can verify are your dates of service, positions held, and whether or not you are eligible for rehire. However, the point is well taken that individuals may not be willing to provide a reference.

Finally, if they send you a letter threatening collections, etc.. tell them to go fly a kite. There is very likely no legal right to do this based on the initial agreement being invalid, again depending on the specific legal jurisdiction where the agreement was made. Additionally, you have no contract or agreement with the collection agency, and you can easily win that battle.

I do think there is something to be said for living up to your commitments, however, I think the issue of integrity is a sword that cuts both ways.

My personal opinion, training and education is a risk that an employer takes. Many times it pays off, however, you don't get a "do-over" for those times that it doesn't. Still, I can send letters all day long to anyone asking for reimbursement for some imaginary debt that I have no right to collect. There are always people that will pay those things whether they should have or not.

Now, someone start a thread about my next favorite topic, employers creating their own "tests" in order to vet people for employment.

MS

Main reason I paid even though I could tell them to go "fly a kite" is that I always have left on good terms. Even today several of the people I worked with at my very first IT job email me if they hear of an opening. I had one of them who is now a manager try to bring me back in when she heard I was losing my job.

I really did not feel like doing battle with a former employer who also said if I ever needed a letter of reference to feel free to call them. I signed a document and agreed to it, if they requested the money back I agreed to it before I took the reimbursement. Even though they have no legal recourse its not worth it to have a bad reputation since in IT you usually end up running into people you know and used to work with.

eMeS

tpatt100 wrote: »

Main reason I paid even though I could tell them to go "fly a kite" is that I always have left on good terms. Even today several of the people I worked with at my very first IT job email me if they hear of an opening. I had one of them who is now a manager try to bring me back in when she heard I was losing my job.

I really did not feel like doing battle with a former employer who also said if I ever needed a letter of reference to feel free to call them. I signed a document and agreed to it, if they requested the money back I agreed to it before I took the reimbursement. Even though they have no legal recourse its not worth it to have a bad reputation since in IT you usually end up running into people you know and used to work with.

My misinformation comment wasn't specifically directed at you. I don't see what you said as speculative at all, because you were really just explaining a similar situation and how you handled it.

I have no problem with integrity...in fact, I agree, we should all do what we say that we're going to do. Clearly this is what you've done. However, and as I said before, integrity runs both ways. Employers need to understand the legality of such agreements before they choose to use them. In some jurisdictions these agreements are fine, in others they're totally pointless.

My real issue with these things is how employers use such agreements to take a somewhat threatening and controlling stance.

BTW, I've never been party to one of these agreements...I've never even been asked.

Personally, I would not issue such an agreement to an employee because of two reasons. First, it's difficult to say that training or education is depreciated over a certain time period. Second, by stating a period of time during which the employee cannot leave without repaying the expense, you are in fact offering something of a guarantee of employment for that time period. From the standpoint of the second item, these agreements are actually beneficial to the employee.

I'd liken the situation to setting up an agreement with all of your employees that accounts for their use of electricity. If they leave within 12 months of using the electricity then according to the agreement I have the right to require reimbursement of the electricity. If they don't pay then I get to sue them.

MS

skrpune

briangl wrote: »

Yeah, wasn't really looking for legal advice, more like personal experience.

Thank you for the comprehensive post. Personally, I would not take anything from this company just because I wouldn’t want to feel like I owed them anything, legally or morally.

For as little as they pay me and me having been a hard working reliable employee for over 5 years, I would think that some sort of leeway would be made as far as how much more time they would want out of me. That and the fact that they will not move me into the IT dept. I would be stuck in this extremely mundane, low level job for an additional year.

So what type of position do you hold there now, and what type of education would they be funding? Have they specifically stated what their tuition reimbursement policy is??

Honestly, if you're trying hard to get out of this company, then I don't see why you would want to stay there for the term of your education PLUS whatever their rules state is the required amount of time post-education. BUT if you're having trouble paying for school on your own, and if the only way you're going to get that education is to stick with this company, the you'll have to weigh the pros & cons & see if it's worth it to you to stick it out for a couple/few years longer.

Whether you decide to just stay a bit with this company & leave during/right after your education, or whether you want to try to save some money on your own for school, you might be well-served by doing a small automatic weekly savings transfer to build up some funds to either pay them back if/when you leave, or to fund your education on your own. A little bit at a time adds up, and you can find some good savings rates with online banks.