Suggestion ? Starting Certs

benchod

It's been over five month of living hell of tech support. I am ready to move forward with certifications
I have few question with certain certs if I should waste my time or not.

Should I still pursue MCSE track ? or go straight for MCITP ?

and should I bother with A+ or just start from Network+ and then on to security+ ?

My goal is to acquire a position as system / network admin and take it from there.

Any suggestion

Thank you

Ben

qwertyiop

If I were you I would do these in the following order
A+
Network+
Security+
MCITP

Since your starting out you might not want to start working towards your MCSE because you wont be working on servers at the beginning and by the time you are you'll be most likely working on a 2008 system

Chivalry1

A+ should get you well grounded.

line

I wish I would have thrown some MS certs in my track. I've been numbed with so much CompTIA studying.

I feel like if someone asked me if I could overhaul group policy settings for a department I would be able to respond with. No sir, but I sure can tell you how not to!

Too much vendor-neutral exams have jaded me, my apologies

qwertyiop

line wrote: »

I wish I would have thrown some MS certs in my track. I've been numbed with so much CompTIA studying.

I feel like if someone asked me if I could overhaul group policy settings for a department I would be able to respond with. No sir, but I sure can tell you how not to!

Too much vendor-neutral exams have jaded me, my apologies

@line
Correct me if im wrong but I was looking at your certs and it looks like your going to WGU

Essendon

If you have some experience with computers and have been working for a while, say 6 months to a year, go for gold dude. Ditch friggin A+/N+, useless unless you are just starting out. Do the MCITP. IMO, these friggin CompTIA bits of paper are for people that have just entered or want to enter the industry.

No offence to people who hold A+/N+ certs (I have the A+ too), but I have lost any iota of respect I had for compTIA ever since they have been holding back the server+ results for whatever reason.

RobertKaucher

Essendon wrote: »

If you have some experience with computers and have been working for a while, say 6 months to a year, go for gold dude. Ditch friggin A+/N+, useless unless you are just starting out. Do the MCITP. IMO, these friggin CompTIA bits of paper are for people that have just entered or want to enter the industry.

No offence to people who hold A+/N+ certs (I have the A+ too), but I have lost any iota of respect I had for compTIA ever since they have been holding back the server+ results for whatever reason.

I kind of agree with this... But I think the A+ and Net+ can be a mixed bag. Before I started to study for the MCSE I did a one month review of A+/N+ topics. I never took the exams, but I do believe the information was important to helping me pass the exams. I've only ever been asked once why I did not take the A+ and my reply was that my work history showed a very strong knowledge of PC hardware so I did not believe the A+ was necessary considering the career path I was on.

Now I have a friend who is also an MCSE and he does not have the background in PC hardware I have, and he has been asked constantly about the A+ to the point where he just decided to go get it.

Turgon

Well the A+/N+ and Server + qualifications fill a void left since the ASE qualifications sadly bit the dust, although they are not the same thing

Far too many IT Professionals are clueless when it comes to server hardware. This was one of the good things about the old CNE where you had to pass an exam called Service and Support. The Networking Fundamentals exam for CNE was superior to the Networking Essentials exam in MCSE as well. I should add that there were similar problems with the SCSA as there were with MCSE when it came down to detailed hardware training. Ultimately you need instruction and experience with hardware regardless of if you are dealing with servers or network devices. Firmware, disk and NIC drivers, SCSI controllers, disk arrays, partitioning, BIOS the list goes on. Get some.

While I agree that technologies have matured to a point that it is easier to set up hardware these days and that virtualisation has arrived, getting some instruction on hardware is still a good thing and useful if you want to get your boxes working happily. Add to which, sooner or later somebody's boss will simply expect that you are an expert in all that stuff and will be giving estimates to other people about when the platform will be operational. A bad place to be that if you don't know what you are doing.

benchod

It seems like Network+ or A+ won't get me a decent paying job.


I am pretty good with computers... I understand most terminology, but not into building pc from ground up.


Which MCITP To start off with ?

What does it take to get Network Admin / System Admin position ?

I will feel more confident with my goals after acquiring network / system admin position.

Thanks for quick and excellent feedback.

Ben

ronzilla

I am just starting off with Windows 70-270 you can use it towards MCSE or MCTIP. I am using the TestOUT right now, and its hard to stay awake.

Most companies will want a few years experience regardless on certifications. Do you have a college degree?

RobertKaucher

Ben, I would still suggest doing a review of the A+ and Net+ material as they will help you in your goals for the MCTIPs.

My Suggestion for the MCTIP would be to start witht he Windows 7 exams.

MCITP: EST 7
MCITP: Enterprise Desktop Administrator 7
MCITP: Server Administrator

Currently the Windows 7 EST requirements have not been finalized. But if you go ahead and get the MCTS for Win 7, it will be a good start. I would also suggest throwing in a CCENT and an MCTS on some sort of enterprise application like SQL or SharePoint. That seems like about 8 exams (just a guess untill the EST 7 requirements are finalized) but it could be 9.

The path I would suggest is this:
A+/N+ ramp-up (don't take the exams, just learn the material)
70-680 MCTS: Win 7
70-685 -> MCITP:EST7 (?)
70-686 -> MCITP EDA7
CCENT
70-640
70-642
70-646 -> MCITP Server Admin

I would say the above could be completed in 2010 if you get started now, and then...

70-630 MCTS: SharePoint Configuring
and/or
70-432 MCTS SQL Server 2008

This will give you a very good, broad foundational knowledge and from there you can go forward and decide what you are going to specialize in.

Turgon

benchod wrote: »

It seems like Network+ or A+ won't get me a decent paying job.


I am pretty good with computers... I understand most terminology, but not into building pc from ground up.


Which MCITP To start off with ?

What does it take to get Network Admin / System Admin position ?

I will feel more confident with my goals after acquiring network / system admin position.

Thanks for quick and excellent feedback.

Ben

A+ and N+ wont get you a decent paying job but they can fill in a lot of know how you dont get on the phones because there is no hands on. A lot of network admins and systems admins have demonstrable experience of installing server environments as well as integration and migration work. It's not just account set up and permissions. What sort of work have you done in tech support?

JoJoCal19

benchod wrote: »

Should I still pursue MCSE track ? or go straight for MCITP ?

I would just like to re-iterate the OPs question on this. After my A+ is finished (I was only getting it to go with N+ and fulfill a MCSE elective) should I bother to go for the MCSE at this point? Should I go straight to MCITP? Im thinking by the time I would get my MCSE it will be less useful and will be more replaced by the newer top of the line MS certs.

RobertKaucher

Turgon wrote: »

... A lot of network admins and systems admins have demonstrable experience of installing server environments as well as integration and migration work. It's not just account set up and permissions. What sort of work have you done in tech support?

I think this is really what it comes down to... Experience.

But I want to include that there is a good chance of having a small to mid sized company take a chance on you because you have shown determination in educating yourself. This is the main reason why I suggest a broad approach to certification. In a 1 to 3 man shop you end up with many hats.

Turgon, am I right in undertsanding the point you are making is really that Ben is going to have to pay his entry-level dues while still improving his knowledge?

RobertKaucher

JoJoCal19 wrote: »

I would just like to re-iterate the OPs question on this. After my A+ is finished (I was only getting it to go with N+ and fulfill a MCSE elective) should I bother to go for the MCSE at this point? Should I go straight to MCITP? Im thinking by the time I would get my MCSE it will be less useful and will be more replaced by the newer top of the line MS certs.

I believe the general consensus on this question has been this:

1. If you work with Server 2003 systems or have experience with Server 2003 systems then the MCSe will still be usefull for you.

2. If you are trying to break into a server/network admin role then the MCITP track (maybe garnished witht he MCP 70-290) would be best.

I think there is very little reason to actually take the MCSE exams at this point unless you have already started the MCSe track (you have the MCSA, for example).

But if you go for the MCIPT you should be very aware of the fact that server 2003 is still a force in the production environments of most companies. You should perform lab based scenarios upgrading/migrating from the 2003 systes as well as getting experience with co-existing 2003/2008 environments.

I would say the MCSE still has value, but by the time you complete it (2011) you will be even closer to the next version of a server OS from Microsoft (maybe 2013?) and the MCSE will only degrade in value for a person who does not work with 2003 systems.

benchod

My current Help Desk role is very limited. I pretty much provide support all day on phone, non windows support.

My daily support routine is tech support for organization products and having vast vendor knowledge. I work for web hosting organization. Everything is outsourced; I am in a call center type of role.

No windows support, no database etc.. nothing...

I have a BS in Business Management but it lacks the foundation in IT and opportunity for job.

I am sick and tired of help desk, I can't seem to take 30 - 50 calls a day anymore, five months and every day is like a living hell.

I will follow the path many of you have outlined..

The reason I feel certification will give some sort of boost is
1. Most jobs require higher experience
2. Most jobs wants ridiculous amount of exp or education

I will also complete my BS in IT ( have to take about 15 course ) - a year and half max

I need to get out of the help desk role soon or asap before I lose my mind and walk out

Will lab setup home help with passing many of the exams ?

Ben

MentholMoose

benchod wrote: »

I will also complete my BS in IT ( have to take about 15 course ) - a year and half max

I need to get out of the help desk role soon or asap before I lose my mind and walk out

You might want to look into desktop support for the time being. It's sort of a sideways move from helpdesk, so it probably won't be too difficult to get into.

benchod wrote: »

Will lab setup home help with passing many of the exams ?

A lab setup (at home or elsewhere) is essential for doing most certs, including MCITP.

Turgon

RobertKaucher wrote: »

I think this is really what it comes down to... Experience.

But I want to include that there is a good chance of having a small to mid sized company take a chance on you because you have shown determination in educating yourself. This is the main reason why I suggest a broad approach to certification. In a 1 to 3 man shop you end up with many hats.

Turgon, am I right in undertsanding the point you are making is really that Ben is going to have to pay his entry-level dues while still improving his knowledge?

Yes I am, and in a sense this isn't achieved by obtaining more certifications. The important thing is your *work*. Now, studying for Microsoft certifications is useful and can open doors but the main thing is to strive to get access to meaningful work during your 9 - 5. That's what pays the bills and that's what determines your career options going forwards. I would be more inclined to expend more time and energy on getting involved in more useful things in the workplace than worrying about certification tracks. I think sometimes people get hung up about certifications and perceive a lack of them as holding them back. This isn't strictly true. Get them by all means but back at the ranch do what you have to do to get access to more meaningful work or promote yourself aggresively to get access to meaningful work elsewhere. The A+/N+/MCSA/MCSE route is well trodden by individuals. The problem here is that it can take you 2+ years to accomplish that going by what I see folks doing. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, you will learn a great deal. But it's important to remember that you and a million other people do exactly that and by the time you get there the market has moved on.

So what differentiates you? The work you actually *do*, that's what. It's not uncommon to run into architects without half the qualifications some folks on these boards have. It's just something to think about.

To the OP, your problem is not uncommon. I have seen support move relentlessly to a more hands off model with offshoring and outsourcing over the years. It's deskilling people like you who need a job and locking you away from practical experience configuring equipment. Try and get yourself an opening with a smaller shop that actually has some infrastructure of it's own. With the amount of contact you have had with end users in your present job you are halfway there for a position like that.

RobertKaucher

Turgon wrote: »

So what differentiates you? The work you actually *do*, that's what. It's not uncommon to run into architects without half the qualifications some folks on these boards have. It's just something to think about.

That is very well put. I think I am a prime example of this!

Turgon

I worked with an 'infrastructure architect' with no degree, no MCSE and no Cisco certifications. Blagged his way into various jobs and stayed there moving up and around. He has a wide range of skills and knowledge and sensibly stays high level. Pulls on specialists who know much more as and when he needs the details. That's one example, and Im sure I have met more but never got to look over their background too closely.

benchod

How did many of you get started?

Did you start at help desk as well ?

It seems like help desk was great way to get the feet wet like 5 years ago , now everyone wants xx amount of exp in xx amount of application.

IT is getting hard.

Thanks for the support

Ben

chrisone

Not to sound mean or downplay any of the certs you have targeted, but speaking from experience, some certs you mentioned are entry level. Which is what you should have for helpdesk support.

I think you may have Server-Admin or Network-Admin a bit underrated. Those are high critical jobs where you need lots of experience and skills/certs. At least a minimum of a high ranking cisco (CCNP or CCSP) certification with 3 - 5+ years of experience will get you a Network Admin/Engineer job. A high ranking Microsoft certification with 3+ years of experience, will land you a Server Admin/Engineer

As for a systems admin/engineer , i think your dead on with the certs your trying to achieve. At least this will get you off the phones and just doing higher PC level 3 tickets, with much better pay as well. However with those certs/skilss, don't expect to touch routers/switches/firewalls or Servers/Active Directory, DNS, DHCP, Microsoft Server OS, etc.

RobertKaucher

benchod wrote: »

How did many of you get started?

Did you start at help desk as well ?

In 2002 I was stepping off a plane from Brazil where I had spent nearly a decade as an English language instructor. I was fairly successful and earned an income around $55K to $60K per year. I was used to being able to travel and not have to worry about money at all. This was just after a divorce.

Well, people here seem to have a decent grasp of English and all the ESL/EFL jobs here wanted to pay me minumum wage. So I had to find a new career. Initially I had a very hard time even getting a job in fast food. The only person who would hire me was a close relative to one Mr. Larry Flint. Given where I live, I will let you guys determine the only place I could get a job!

But I enjoyed computers. I had done web design and Java programming as a hobby. So after a few months of getting my head back on right, I decided to look at IT. I was fortunate enough to have a contact at a small firm that allowed me to do a Server 2003 SBS deployment for them.

I began studying for my first MCP, started working at the Geek Squad, and did a short stint at a help-desk call center that I detested.

I decided at that point to get my MCSE and work towards moving into a network admin role. That was in 2006 and by 2007 I had achieved my MCSE and a new position as an "Integration Engineer."

I got lucky in that spot. One of the guys who interned as a jr. instructor were I was doing MCSE classes noticed me and decided I had good potential. So he put my name in for the job. I learned SharePoint and the very basics of SQL Server there. I had tons of time and lots of chances to improve my skills. I also had a good mentor who taught me things about C# and developing for SharePoint.

Sadly, when the economy tanked I became nervous about my position in the company as it was clear their professional services started taking a hit. So I then moved on to a job I never should have taken.

But that was fine because ultimately it brought me where I am now. I believe the important thing is having a plan for you and your career and not to be constantly flip-flopping between things.

Get settled. Find a position you can stand and figure things out. But once you are there, get a plan formed. Do not become lazy and complacent. I would say that is why it took me from 2003 to 2006 to get my first MCP.

Turgon

benchod wrote: »

How did many of you get started?

Did you start at help desk as well ?

It seems like help desk was great way to get the feet wet like 5 years ago , now everyone wants xx amount of exp in xx amount of application.

IT is getting hard.

Thanks for the support

Ben

I didn't start in helpdesk, although I certainly had to deal with numerous requests over the phone. I was hands on IT support in a manufacturing site covering desktops, applications and looking after the servers and network. Any changes at the shop were driven by the IT Department back at head office. I spent 20 months there running around and learning everything on the job, then I moved on and haven't looked back. I was very junior back then and so are you. Notice I said 20 months. I worked my tail off in that first job and in many ways looking back it was the hardest job I had because I was green and had to learn how to adapt and cope with a lot of new things, not only technical.

My advice to you is this. While I don't have a crystal ball the economy is bad right now and I fear that 2010 will really suck lemons. You have a job. Keep it. Come up with a 12 month plan. The first thing you should do is find some motivation again. You may not find your present job rather exciting, so excite yourself about the possibilities. Suck it up there. If you get laid off now you might not work for quite of while. Lots of people are trying to get even a helpdesk job these days with very little success. Add to that a lot of people with skills and experience are on the market. You already have a job and that's a good thing.

Knuckle down at that job. Start to make a different impression at work. Take an interest in what the organisation *does* as opposed to the technology it uses. This will take time and effort on your part but trust me if you are not happy at work it will come over in lots of subtle ways. So I would recussitate your profile at work if I was you. Also, start to explore *any* opportunities within that organisation to get involved in some new things. But be patient about that, dont be too eager at the expense of what you are paid to do. Get that back 'on task' first. While you are busy making a great impression, use your head and start to see for yourself where you might be able to get involved with some new things. If things are offshored or outsourced, find out what you can about that and make some good contacts within that area. Find out what is going on and offer to help, even if it means helping in a menial way with projects/upgrades/installs in the evenings or out of hours.

At the same time, yes choose a study track that is both doable and will keep you busy the next 12 months. It's a motivator. You should also be contacting recruiters fairly regularly in case something comes available. Try linkedin for that. You can always swap an email with recruiters in the evenings or weekends. Avoid chasing recruiters on works time.

So explore what might be available within the company you are already working for and put some more time in there. If the avenues to get to do more are really limited there then look out for opportunities to work at a shop where they do have some infrastructure of their own so you get some proper hands on. Doing tape backups and what have you. You dont want to be a virtual operator forever. Smaller shops are good for this.

pinkydapimp

I notice no mention of Apple certifications. I think having apple experience can quickly help set yourself apart. take a look at the

Apple Certified Technical Coordinator (ACTC) 10.6

its only 2 exams.

gocubs

RobertKaucher wrote: »

My Suggestion for the MCTIP would be to start witht he Windows 7 exams.

MCITP: EST 7
MCITP: Enterprise Desktop Administrator 7
MCITP: Server Administrator

Currently the Windows 7 EST requirements have not been finalized. But if you go ahead and get the MCTS for Win 7, it will be a good start.

I posted something like this in another post but I cant understand this honestly, Win 7 just came out and no one is using it currently...if you're new and trying to make yourself marketable to say help desk wouldnt you be better served doing MCDST and then the MCITP Vista Support ones instead, since people are actually using them? Maybe I'm off base here, but I'd start A+, Net+, then do the XP and Vista OS certs, 270,271,272, then 621 and 623, that's what I did when I started out and feel like a have a good foundation in operating systems which will build to server 2003 and server 2008 etc...

Turgon

gocubs wrote: »

I posted something like this in another post but I cant understand this honestly, Win 7 just came out and no one is using it currently...if you're new and trying to make yourself marketable to say help desk wouldnt you be better served doing MCDST and then the MCITP Vista Support ones instead, since people are actually using them? Maybe I'm off base here, but I'd start A+, Net+, then do the XP and Vista OS certs, 270,271,272, then 621 and 623, that's what I did when I started out and feel like a have a good foundation in operating systems which will build to server 2003 and server 2008 etc...

You are often best served studying what is presently heavily supported in the field yes.

RobertKaucher

gocubs wrote: »

I posted something like this in another post but I cant understand this honestly, Win 7 just came out and no one is using it currently...if you're new and trying to make yourself marketable to say help desk wouldnt you be better served doing MCDST and then the MCITP Vista Support ones instead, since people are actually using them? Maybe I'm off base here, but I'd start A+, Net+, then do the XP and Vista OS certs, 270,271,272, then 621 and 623, that's what I did when I started out and feel like a have a good foundation in operating systems which will build to server 2003 and server 2008 etc...

Well, he's not new. He's just new to certification. I don't think the MCDST is worth doing at all at this point, even though XP is still so strong. I also feel that many companies are skipping Vista deployment and will probably be moving to Windows 7 in the very near furture. I have seen several job postings in my area for positions with knowledge of Windows 7. I saw far fewer postings for positions with Vista. Also, the vast majority of what is learned in both the EST 7 and the EDA 7 will be directly applicable to any environment with Vista in it.

The reason why I suggested the EST 7 at all was more foundational than what I think he might actually use on his career path. After all the point is to get him out of the call center.

The purpose of the EDA7 and MCITP SA are to show he has a strong knowledge of group policy, Windows deployement, and licensing methods as well as Server administration. The EDA7 cert, in my opinion, represents a very important set of skills that a person looking to move from call center/helpdesk to administration needs to know.

I believe that over the next year Windows 7 deployment is going to be big, much bigger than it was for Vista at the same point in its life cycle, and the WAIK looks intimidating. People who know it will have a good advantage for positions in companies who will be deploying 7.

If the OP really wants to get out of the call center then he should not waste the money on the A+/N+. The CCENT will show he has a strong network understanding and if he feels he really needs to have a hardware certification I would suggest the Server+. If he has a very strong work record in his current position, MCITP:EDA7/SA, CCENT, and SharePoint (maybe Server+) he will be in a much better position to move into a jr. admin role at a medium size company than if he has the same work history and the A+/Net+ and MCDST. People will see those certs and say "helpdesk!"

gocubs

thanks for the responses to my posts guys, i see your points and i can see it both ways i guess. if you want to move up with experience you make great points, if youre new and job hunting it'll basically be helpdesk out there which is why i was thinking xp/vista etc...