Microsoft taking stand agaist **** sites

staggerlee

darkerosxx wrote: »

<devil's advocate>

Let's commit a crime to stop crime. One incident of crime in order to stop multiple incidents is okay.... right?

</devil's advocate>

Batman says yes!

Devilsbane

earweed wrote: »

Actually there have been a lot of those "paper MCSE's" out there already. As soon as the cert was available and the first batch of tests went out there were all these **** sites. A lot of people just used **** sites and boot camps to get the cert.

I've heard this before. To my understanding it was the "first batch" as you said and that now most people who get one have earned it. Of course its still possible to use a **** site, but I think they are concious of it now and are trying to prevent it.

I'm sure that when the tests were initially designed, they didn't think that someone would get ahold of all the answers and pass the test, or that one person would pay another person to take it for them.

Lesson Learned.

JDMurray

Devilsbane wrote: »

I'm sure that when the tests were initially designed, they didn't think that someone would get ahold of all the answers and pass the test, or that one person would pay another person to take it for them.

I remember people dumping the MCSE on USENET 13+ years ago. How long does it take cert vendors to realize (or care) that people are capable of damaging the integrity of their certifications?

mikedisd2

Devilsbane wrote: »

The other side is lets say I hire you for a position because I am very impressed that you have an MCP. First day on the job I see you working and doing completely stupid stuff. I'm going to fire you, and the next time someone applies with an MCP I won't be very impressed by it because I will assume it is worthless and doesn't teach anything.

Both of these points mean that people will decide not to bother getting an MCP. If it isn't going to help them get a job, or increase their salary then it isn't worth the time and money.

Forget devalued certs. All I care about is that the next recruiter/HR goon will see that I've achieved my MCSE and it will be consistent will my years of sys admin work history. He/she isn't going to immediately assume that I cheated to get it and a technical interview will let them decide my competence.

There's no way I could be doing my current job if I hadn't done the MCSE. The technology needs to be learnt and understood. I believe recruiters will acknowledge MS certs, despite "everyone" having one.

colemic

Therein lies part of the problem - recruiters/HR goons still keep putting MCSE as a requirement on low/entry-level type Helpdesk positions, which I believe also devalues the cert. It's no wonder that people have paper certs, regardless of their experience or background, they can't get past the initial round of screening for a helpdeks job unless they have a cert that is not commisurate with the position.

Just my .00002 cents.

2E151

colemic wrote: »

they can't get past the initial round of screening for a helpdeks job unless they have a cert that is not commisurate with the position. .

Totally agree. I've seen far too many entry & low level IT jobs asking for certifications far beyond the technical level of the position.

Additionally I feel like Microsoft is putting a very half hearted effort in this whole braindump process. I mean for the most part you don't even have to pay for this kind of stuff anymore. Someone buys it and then its all over the internet in shady forums and on free **** sites. For company with the legal backing & financial strength that Microsoft has, there is no way they shouldn’t be able to shut this crap down.

Remember the news acouple of years ago when Microsoft sued ********? I thought for sure that was the beginning of the end for ****. Nope. I guarantee they’re still chugging along offering the newest tests for Windows 7 & Server 2008.

Even if they can’t shutdown the big guys, which I believe is a load of crap, then they can atleast shut down the sites that give the stuff away. I mean it should be cut and dry: they’re openly displaying copyrighted material for free.

I’m sorry, but Microsoft isn’t doing its part; if they wanted to, I believe they could shut this stuff down in a matter of months.
I refuse to believe that a company with as much financial assets as Microsoft hasn’t found a way to stop this in 15 years. They’ve had 15 or more years and braindumps are even more rampant than they were years ago. I’m sorry, but if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, well then it is what it is.

Zartanasaurus

2E151 wrote: »

I’m sorry, but Microsoft isn’t doing its part; if they wanted to, I believe they could shut this stuff down in a matter of months.

I disagree. The RIAA has been actively trying to shut down music file sharing for over a decade and they haven't even made a dent.

aaronchristenson

I think that they could do a better job in shutting them down. They write the software that these companies use to put these sites on the internet. They can use the back door holes that are in the software to cause havoc and disrupt the websites. They could partner with Cisco and locate the origin of the sites and gather evidence that can be used to legaly put a stop to them or create DOS attacks. Who would these sites compain to?

za3bour

I don't believe shutting down the website is the solution it can't be a solution we're IT guys and we know this you can build another website in a matter of minutes.

In my opinion there are other solutions like using the simulations based exams but this time build a good solid one that can be used in test centers all around the world. They can have a bank of questions that have thousands of them it can be done if they put time in it and finally if it didn't work then what the hell any good company can tell the difference between someone who really earned the certificate and someone who didn't this is not microsoft fault.

The certificate is important but it's not every thing and it can't tell if you're really good or not what can tell is how you accomplish in real world.

aaronchristenson

I agree with you that shutting them down is not the solution, but it can be a tool. Simulations are making their way into the exams, but that will take some time.

za3bour

aaronchristenson wrote: »

I agree with you that shutting them down is not the solution, but it can be a tool. Simulations are making their way into the exams, but that will take some time.

Like they said it's been 15 years that's plenty of time and Microsoft isn't some poor company from third world. They should invest in this if they do care about their certificates.

Devilsbane

za3bour wrote: »

I don't believe shutting down the website is the solution it can't be a solution we're IT guys and we know this you can build another website in a matter of minutes.

Destroying conterfeit money doesn't solve the problem either, but it does slow down the flow until you can find out who is printing it.

The company can easily copy and paste all of the material and build a new site. But it is going to take time for people to start finding the site again.

colemic

From my understanding, ISC2 does not have as bad an issue with **** because they have such a monstrous question pool to choose from. One would think that M$ and others would go this route as well to see if it made a big difference (I imagine it will.)

asurania

i say simulation is the way to go

za3bour

colemic wrote: »

From my understanding, ISC2 does not have as bad an issue with **** because they have such a monstrous question pool to choose from. One would think that M$ and others would go this route as well to see if it made a big difference (I imagine it will.)

Yea I agree with this I don't think it's that hard to put questions with a vast scope especially in exams like 70-680 were it covers a lot of topics.

phoeneous

2E151 wrote: »

Even if they can’t shutdown the big guys, which I believe is a load of crap, then they can atleast shut down the sites that give the stuff away. I mean it should be cut and dry: they’re openly displaying copyrighted material for free.

Good luck with that. For every **** site that gets shut down, two more will open. It'll never end. It's like the DEA trying to shut down every crack house. A month later, another one will open right down the street.

EDIT: I just read the official complaint filed by MS and it looks like all those sites are shutdown. Good job MS!

phoeneous

asurania wrote: »

i say simulation is the way to go

Agree x1000!

JDMurray

colemic wrote: »

From my understanding, ISC2 does not have as bad an issue with **** because they have such a monstrous question pool to choose from.

The (ISC)2 doesn't have an issue with **** because their exams are on paper and are physically tracked very well. CISSP **** are probably the most inaccurate of all because the questions are not either from the exams, taken from commercial study materials, or completely made up.

That being said, the (ISC)2 will soon release a computer-based CISSP exam at testing centers that are secure and trustworthy. So far, the trial with the computer-based CSSLP exam is said to be going very well.

colemic

JD, do you have an anticpated date for this? Would really be beneficial to my coworkers to have the ability to take the CISSP at a testing center (we are a prometric -approved testing center, I think.)

JDMurray

Nope, no date has been made public yet that I've seen. Unless something goes horribly wrong with the CSSLP trial, I would expect early 2011.

thenjduke

aaronchristenson wrote: »

I think that they could do a better job in shutting them down. They write the software that these companies use to put these sites on the internet. They can use the back door holes that are in the software to cause havoc and disrupt the websites. They could partner with Cisco and locate the origin of the sites and gather evidence that can be used to legaly put a stop to them or create DOS attacks. Who would these sites compain to?

Here is the problem with that then the companies they are doing this to can sue Microsoft and Cisco.

Matt27[lt]

To take my second shot exam I came 30 minutes earlier so I could chat with testcenter representatives. I asked them about ********.com and other sites which claim that after buying their practise tests they guarantee you'll pass exam 100 proc. I asked how can they guarantee this? Do they know the answers or what? One representative went to explain to me that "there are certains sites, where people share their exam experience". Guy, who was standing next to me and scheduling his next exam date said "o, yes, I found these sites, they are very useful". I was like "damn, wish I knew in advance..." and went to take my test. It's so tempting - instead of preparing several months, you can simply learn by heart all the answers in one day and pass the exam. After passing exam I went to see "these sites" - well, it's cheating imho. Especially because, if memory serves me right, when you take the exam, you kinda agree with MS which prohibits this kind of behavior.
What suprised me in these sites - people complain about the answers! I mean, you **** and you curse the person who made these **** for wrong answers.
I believe it's MS doing undercover work and shuffling their cards. As I understand from comments, MS even are offering "discount vouchers" in these sites. People take these vouchers and get some kind of "special super hard version" of exam or something. Can't confirm, but seems a right thing to do for MS
In the end, it all comes to practise and real knowledge. Read somethere about "certified" database administrator, who was asked to clean the database. Instead of using command "truncate" (which cleans all the data from tables), he used command "delete" (which deleted all the tables and relations too).

p.s. in the test I got at least two exact questions which were in the official MS T.Orin book - does it count for cheating?

earweed

I got a couple questions on my last MS test which were straight form the Measure up included with the book. Almost got me laughing right there in the test center.

Devilsbane

Matt27[lt] wrote: »

To take my second shot exam I came 30 minutes earlier so I could chat with testcenter representatives. I asked them about ********.com and other sites which claim that after buying their practise tests they guarantee you'll pass exam 100 proc. I asked how can they guarantee this? Do they know the answers or what?

Well there are two types of guarentees. There are the non legit ones, which are cheats. They guarentee you pass, but have nothing to back it up.

Legit software guarentees that you will pass or your money back, so they don't really guarentee that you are going to pass. Just the peace of mind that if their software doesn't help you, then it was free.

za3bour

what kind of idiot would use delete instead of truncate ? once again it's the interviewer to blame didn't he had to pass a decent technical interview ?

I like the idea of using vouchers and then get super exams but I doubt it's true ?

Matt27[lt]

za3bour wrote: »

what kind of idiot would use delete instead of truncate ?

- maybe a person who got certification, but not the knowledge (used ****?).

za3bour

Matt27[lt] wrote: »

- maybe a person who got certification, but not the knowledge (used ****?).

I just don't get it why do you wanna get certified if you don't wanna learn ? if it's because you need a job then sooner or later they will find out that you're an idiot and fire you.