Starting to Make Some Changes!

the_Grinch

Probably posted something like this before, but will be sticking to it this time. Slowly things have started to change in my life and it has finally hit me that I have to stop waiting for things to happen and start making them happen. Couple steps to make things happen, but a journey of a 1000 miles starts with a single step!

I funded my entire education via student loans (parents were middle class and I was an A/B student). On top of that I was dumb and used credit cards, so I get to add those to the monthly expenses. My lack of experience gets me the pay expected for someone with some certs and education.

So started a new job (one where more often then not I will get home at a standard time) and applied for a second part time job (delivering pizzas and I am about 98% sure I'll get the job). One of my concerns has been that I won't have a social life, but in reflecting on the last 7 months I haven't had one anyway! Once I get my first paycheck I will start looking into budgetting (never done it and wonder why my finances suck!). Finally, I'll start working out and focusing on certs. Hopefully, I'll stop chickening out and enlist in the Army National Guard or the Army Reserves.

I am posting here because you guys always give me solid advice and I know you'll keep on me to get my life on track! This is no resolution, it is a change of attitude for good!

twodogs62

Use that 2nd job to help get credit cards paid.
Stop using credit cards.

Maybe social has to wait til 2011. By then get credit cards paid, etc....

But, still see if you can fit some social in. Find something you like to do and make that happen at least once a week, once a month......

Forsaken_GA

Sounds like someone's been listening to Dave Ramsey!

the_Grinch

Hell yeah, I've read one of his books and watched his dvd series. I should have my credit cards paid off by the end of this year and then it's student loan time. I've stopped using the credit cards (not in the wallet anymore) so one step in the right direction.

Forsaken_GA

I wholeheartedly endorse Dave Ramsey. It's worth the $10/month subscription to his website just to be able to pull all three hours of his radio show in podcast form with no commercial interruption. It's the *only* thing that gets played in my car while driving anymore

mikej412

the_Grinch wrote: »

Hopefully, I'll stop chickening out and enlist in the Army National Guard or the Army Reserves.

Make sure you check the deployment schedules for your local units, otherwise you may have to interrupt your current job (and gaining IT experience) and possibly even earn less..... And if you don't have Ossifer Training School guaranteed, it's probably not worth it except for patriotic reasons -- in which case you might consider biting the bullet and active duty (and see if Uncle Sam will pay off your student loans).

Plantwiz

Forsaken_GA wrote: »

Sounds like someone's been listening to Dave Ramsey!

I'm a HUGE Dave Ramsey fan!!

I've lead his FPU series and really encourage anyone who is looking to make some changes or just get a better handle on their finances to consider the program.

It's all basic information, and Dave markets the material very well. I have several students who have done amazing life changing steps to clear up their past mistakes...and a couple who were already doing well, just clean up some lose ends.

Haven't had a student complete the class and NOT take away something positive to change their future.

Good luck to you and PM me if you have any questions on the program or any of Dave's material.

the_Grinch

A lot of people tell me to go for OCS, but I am in the camp that I should be enlisted before going for the gold. Plus I've always been the kind of guy who likes to do the job. But I will look at all options. As far as pay in case of deployment, if I get the credit cards paid off I'll have no problem paying the student loans if deployed. Plus, the Federal loans will be paid off by Uncle Same (don't have many of those). Thanks for the advice!

Mrock4

the_Grinch wrote: »

A lot of people tell me to go for OCS, but I am in the camp that I should be enlisted before going for the gold. Plus I've always been the kind of guy who likes to do the job. But I will look at all options. As far as pay in case of deployment, if I get the credit cards paid off I'll have no problem paying the student loans if deployed. Plus, the Federal loans will be paid off by Uncle Same (don't have many of those). Thanks for the advice!

Not to mention, if you join and deploy in a communications MOS, you'll probably get far better experience (well, it depends, but I did), and good pay..and tax free of course, which is always a winner.

I concur that going enlisted first is better..at least if you plan on staying in a while. If you just want in to make the paycheck and get out, I'd go OCS too. Most officers that were prior enlisted are generally better officers, in my experience.

Forsaken_GA

Plantwiz wrote: »

It's all basic information, and Dave markets the material very well. I have several students who have done amazing life changing steps to clear up their past mistakes...and a couple who were already doing well, just clean up some lose ends.

I found Dave last year at the height of the fear and paranoia with the job market. I sat down and seriously asked myself what I would do if I walked into work tomorrow and found out I didn't have a job. I didn't much like the answer. So I decided to do a little research, and I'd always seen The Total Money Makeover out in front whenever I walked into a Barnes and Noble, so I figured I'd start there, and it just kind of grew.

I spent last year pretty much cleaning up my own mess. I was only a few thousand in debt, but was seriously thinking about buying a house to take advantage of the tax credit... but Mr. Ramsey disabused me of that notion right quick. And I keep his Podcast on play in the car because listening to him every day helps keep me honest!

My mom is a big fan of Suze Orman, and we have a fairly consistent debate on the credit card issue. Mom feels like I should have one just for emergencies, and Mom just doesn't quite grasp the fact that I'm socking away cash for the express purpose of an emergency! Right now I'm on the tail end of Babystep 3, can't wait to move on!

brad-

the_Grinch wrote: »

Finally, I'll start working out and focusing on certs. Hopefully, I'll stop chickening out and enlist in the Army National Guard or the Army Reserves.

First, there's no reason to be 'chicken'. Standard military training is designed for you to succeed. They build you up, so as long as you give 100%, you cant fail.

Second, if you do a military option, you need to know some things going in. You need to KNOW what you want - or is acceptable - for your MOS (job). You also need to find out if there are bonuses available, or tuition reimbursement. You also need to see if you can enlist as a higher rank - if you have a degree, you can enlist as an e-4. If your debt is extreme, dont rule out active duty military, teh bonuses and ability to pay off bills is unparalleled. When I was in, I managed to save, thats flat save, 25k - which I used to live off when i got out and went to college.

Third, regarding your finances, forget about the active social life until you get your debt under control. That should be an easy decision to sacrifice for.

Plantwiz

Forsaken_GA wrote: »

I....

I spent last year pretty much cleaning up my own mess. I was only a few thousand in debt, but was seriously thinking about buying a house to take advantage of the tax credit... but Mr. Ramsey disabused me of that notion right quick. And I keep his Podcast on play in the car because listening to him every day helps keep me honest!

My mom is a big fan of Suze Orman,.....fact that I'm socking away cash for the express purpose of an emergency! Right now I'm on the tail end of Babystep 3, can't wait to move on!

Not to step on the Grinch post, but GOOD FOR YOU!!

I'll PM you the rest, but very good work! Stay with it.


Grinch - Best of luck! Sounds like you are looking at your options thoroughly rather then just jumping into something..Good work!

HeroPsycho

Couple of things I want to point out...

About Dave Ramsey:

For many people, especially those who don't have self control, or just don't have a good understanding of credit cards, how credit works, etc., Dave Ramsey's borderline demonization of debt is probably very helpful. Such people generally do more harm than good with access to credit. However, credit, just any other mechanism in personal finance is a tool you can use, and just like any other tool, can be dangerous if misused, but very helpful if used properly.

I have absolutely no problem with using student loans (not excessively) to pay for school. (Using them to effectively finance purchases or a lifestyle you couldn't afford otherwise? BIG MISTAKE!) I have absolutely no problem using credit cards to fund purchasing what you need to further your career and you have no other choice. To me, those are just like having to take a loan out for a car to get to and from your job. Without credit, if you couldn't afford transportation to and from your job, then how are you going to work?

Credit gets dangerous when you use it for stupid crap you don't need. Case in point, I used credit both intelligently and idiotically. When I switched into IT, I used credit cards to pay for my exams when I couldn't fund it through loans from family members and side work I did, etc. Yes, I dug myself even deeper into debt that was already bigger than it should have been, but it was worth it. As I've mentioned in the past, my only regret was showing too much restraint with credit, which caused me to take longer to get my MCSE, which cost me that time I could have been making a much higher income. That was a smart use of credit, one that Dave Ramsey would have had an aneurysm watching someone else do. When I then once completed MCSE, scored my second job, I thought I deserved a reward, and bought myself a big screen TV for $2500 instead of paying down said debt. THAT was idiotic.

Generally speaking, if you're using credit to finance what you need to increase your income, and it's very realistic those purchases will do that, and there's no other way to do those things, you're fine. Just try to limit it as best as possible, and remember to pay the piper when you can and get back out of debt. Even with the dumb things I used credit to buy, I'm now credit card debt free, almost car loan free, have a tiny student loan at 3.25% interest + a tax credit that I don't plan to pay off early anytime soon, fully funding my IRA's, have a nice 3 month emergency fund and growing it larger, etc. Between paying down debts and putting money away in savings or for retirement, I'm setting aside 33% of my paycheck now. I'm also putting aside money to prevent me from even needing to take out loans or use credit cards for the things I need like cars and training. I'm fine, and I wouldn't be where I am without intelligent use of credit.

Now, in your specific situation, and I don't know all the details, but as long as you're not drowning in debt, I wouldn't take a job delivering pizzas at night to pay the debt down if it's inhibiting you from furthering your skills. Do work on the side that enhances your skills. The money is better, you get valuable experience, and you further your skills. Do ANY work that can further your skills. Delivering pizzas can't significantly help your career. Even if that means doing paper work jobs that help you learn Office better would be a better way to go. And don't let the part time work inhibit you developing your core skills that most likely will land you a better job. Just stop taking on additional debt unless it's absolutely necessary to further your career. Granted, if the debt is destroying you, then you gotta take any work you can and pay it down to something manageable, but use your best judgment.

Plantwiz

HeroPsycho wrote: »

Couple of things I want to point out...

About Dave Ramsey:

For many people, especially those who don't have self control, or just don't have a good understanding of credit cards, how credit works, etc., ...

Except, it is possible to be successful WITHOUT using credit and credit cards.

I've done it (and know several others who too lived by a save-up and buy it system) long before I started listening to Dave. What isn't considered with the plan you mention is the RISK factor.

When one signs up for a loan (be it credit card, student loans, etc..) there is little regard for the risk to pay those items back when jobs are lost or other more important expenses arise (such as medical or maybe vehicle repair). Then we see events of 2007-08 begin to unfold and folks panic.

Those who played it more conservative, (even Companies who did this) didn't suffer the loses that others had during that time period. But in 2009-10 they are still playing the game.

It is easy for younger folks to drop the factor of 'risk' from their plan because they see everything as good and not-going-to-happen-to-them...but in a second, a disease, disability, lawsuit can completely shatter everything, and while everything one had is now in jeopardy, so is the income...and everything is now due at once....and now life isn't as 'fun'.

I had a couple in my class. Life was going great! Both had good incomes, their home was 2 years from being paid-in-full; Savings; He got a bonus and a raise and they decided to upgrade to a new home.
Six months in their new place, the wife falls ill. Several doc appoints, expensive tests, bills that insurance won't cover, she's now disabled and without an income. They began to finance their lifestyle with credit cards, but just dug deeper in debt and couldn't stay current with the increasing medical bills and prescriptions needed to attempt to stabilize her conditions. Then a child fell ill...great stress to the family and finances and the seemingly 'healthy' and working spouse. Who now is using up all his vacation and personal time to care for his wife and child.

They became a TMM success story, but it took them a couple very bad years, then they found FPU and within 24 months have nearly cleared up 100Ks of medical debt.

Dave's plan isn't for Nitwits, it's a viable old-fashion method to make it to old-age without waiting for the handouts. The gov't isn't designed to take care of personal finance.

HeroPsycho

Plantwiz wrote: »

Except, it is possible to be successful WITHOUT using credit and credit cards.

I've done it (and know several others who too lived by a save-up and buy it system) long before I started listening to Dave. What isn't considered with the plan you mention is the RISK factor.

When one signs up for a loan (be it credit card, student loans, etc..) there is little regard for the risk to pay those items back when jobs are lost or other more important expenses arise (such as medical or maybe vehicle repair). Then we see events of 2007-08 begin to unfold and folks panic.

...

Dave's plan isn't for Nitwits, it's a viable old-fashion method to make it to old-age without waiting for the handouts. The gov't isn't designed to take care of personal finance.

First off, I gotta say I resent the insinuation that I'm not factoring in risk in determining whether or not credit should be used. Factoring in risk is part of determining when credit should be used or not, period. If you don't think about the risks, you shouldn't use credit, period.

There's risk in everything you do. There's risk in NOT using credit. Credit is a tool, as I mentioned. Power tools are also tools that can help you finish tasks more quickly, or enable you to do more than what you could do with conventional tools. There's risks associated with using them as well, but it doesn't mean everyone should just go with the viable old fashioned methods of manual tools just because a few people end up hurting themselves using them, either.

You could scare yourself out of getting a car loan to afford basic transportation because of the risk, but that ignores the sheer certainty that you can't work if you can't get to and from the job. Of course there's risk, but those risks are sometimes worth it. Furthering your career and earning potential on something that has a very good chance of succeeding is very often worth the risk, and that's my entire point here.

Just to make it clear, I do not believe you should use credit just because you can. If you can be just as successful, productive, etc. without credit or more so, and some people have been able to within their own circumstances, by all means do that. Not everyone is in those circumstances, and often times through no fault of their own.

If I could have done what I did just as quickly without the use of credit, I would have done it that way, but that simply wasn't possible. Had I made my transition into IT the Ramsey way, I would have probably not successfully transitioned into IT for at least another few years, missing out on two years of twice the salary than what I was making as a public school teacher. That would have been at least a $70K mistake. I was well aware that the longer I took to get my certifications, I ran the risk of missing out on increased income in that time. Even the boneheaded mistakes I made with the credit card couldn't make up for that. In the end, I was better off using the credit cards than without them, because while I still made some idiotic mistakes with them, I generally did the right thing.

My point here is simply a dogmatic view to blind refuse using credit can sometimes hurt you just as frivolously using it when you shouldn't. And what irritates me about Dave Ramsey and many of his followers is the insistence that the Ramsey way is the only way. I'm perfectly okay with the Ramsey way being the right way for other people. It wasn't the right way for me though.

And that dogmatic view is honestly Ramsey's bread and butter philosophy about credit. And hey, that works for some people, and that's fine for them. I'm not calling those people nitwits. If you can't understand how to intelligently use credit, just like a potentially dangerous power tool, don't even think about using it! That's in my opinion smart. If however you can practice restraint and learn how to responsibly use credit, there's absolutely no reason you shouldn't use it when it makes sense.

Essendon

Well written posts, Hero.

Forsaken_GA

HeroPsycho wrote: »

There's risk in everything you do. There's risk in NOT using credit.

Oh, come on. Now that's a bit of empty rhetoric. I'd be interested to know exactly how I could put myself in financial peril just because I don't owe someone money.

I can give you a laundry list of items that put you at risk for using credit. Talk to some realtors in Florida, Michigan, and California, they can tell you all about it.

You could scare yourself out of getting a car loan to afford basic transportation because of the risk, but that ignores the sheer certainty that you can't work if you can't get to and from the job.

Or you could walk. Or take public transit. Or buy a beater. Sure, it's not pretty, but all it has to do is move you from point A to point B, and you don't need to take out a 5 year loan to buy a thousand dollar beater. And if you can't afford a cheap beater, then you're probably not bankable for a loan anyway, and you're exactly the kind of person who should *NOT* be using credit. Come on man, if you're going to preach common sense with the use of credit, display some yourself.

mikedisd2

This thread is turning ugly. No wonder, when money is discussed.

Hopefully this is the end of it...

Forsaken_GA

Money, Politics, and Religion. The Unholy Trinity

Hyper-Me

I see Hero's point and agree with it in most of its entirety.

There are times when having/using a credit card is just fine/acceptable and some hardcore Dave Ramsey people get offended by that, but its true.

Infact, Im pretty sure Dave Ramsey advises keeping a paid-off credit card on hand while you get a month or two emergency fund built, just incase.

HeroPsycho

Forsaken_GA wrote: »

Oh, come on. Now that's a bit of empty rhetoric. I'd be interested to know exactly how I could put myself in financial peril just because I don't owe someone money.

I can give you a laundry list of items that put you at risk for using credit. Talk to some realtors in Florida, Michigan, and California, they can tell you all about it.

Or you could walk. Or take public transit. Or buy a beater. Sure, it's not pretty, but all it has to do is move you from point A to point B, and you don't need to take out a 5 year loan to buy a thousand dollar beater. And if you can't afford a cheap beater, then you're probably not bankable for a loan anyway, and you're exactly the kind of person who should *NOT* be using credit. Come on man, if you're going to preach common sense with the use of credit, display some yourself.

I just showed you how you risk things without using credit sometimes. In my case, had I not used credit to help transition into IT, I risked years of missing out on additional income because it would have taken me longer to get into IT. That would have cost me at least 70K in additional salary. Lay off the "display common sense" crap and read what I posted.

So are you advocating you should only pay cash for houses?!

When I said take a loan out for a car, how did that become a license for taking out a loan for a BMW? I never advocated using credit to take out a 5 year car loan for more car than you needed. I didn't have a few grand for a beater when I first got out of college, but magically I was bankable for a reasonable car loan. And the car lasted five years without issues until the AC broke down, and I traded it in on another reasonable car that I *gasp* took a loan out on with a low interest rate. I never worried about the car's imminent break down causing me to not be able to get to work, etc. And no, it wasn't a BMW. It was a basic model used Honda Civic. I hope that by the next time I need a car, I'll be able to pay cash, but if I have to finance a small portion of it for a car that will be reliable, I'm fine with that.

Again, this is my issue with Ramsey-ites. When someone dares to suggest there are reasonable, effective ways of using credit, they're treated as heretics against the anti-credit dogma, as they must completely lack common sense. They begin slippery sloping everything (car loan? those are bad because you're guaranteed to take out an unreasonable car loan for 5 years on a car you don't need!). It's okay that Ramsey's ideas don't work for some people, and I'm completely okay with them working for some people, too.

Forsaken_GA

HeroPsycho wrote: »

I just showed you how you risk things without using credit sometimes. In my case, had I not used credit to help transition into IT, I risked years of missing out on additional income because it would have taken me longer to get into IT. That would have cost me at least 70K in additional salary. Lay off the "display common sense" crap and read what I posted.

Well, getting into an extended debate with you over this is just an invitation to get the thread closed, so I'm not going to do that. All I'll say is this - you are advocating that having no debt puts you at financial risk. If you think that's a reasonable assertion, there's no way you and I are going to find common ground.

Again, this is my issue with Ramsey-ites. When someone dares to suggest there are reasonable, effective ways of using credit, they're treated as heretics against the anti-credit dogma, as they must completely lack common sense.

And obviously someone can't disagree with you without being tagged or branded. You have a hard time that anyone would actually disagree with *you*. Whether you realize it or not, you're displaying your own brand of fanaticism, and I'm not going to indulge that any further.

Mishra

All HP is saying is that credit can help you in certain circumstances. It's a true statement.

Hyper-Me

Forsaken_GA wrote: »

. All I'll say is this - you are advocating that having no debt puts you at financial risk. If you think that's a reasonable assertion, there's no way you and I are going to find common ground.

Thats not what he said, at all.

As much I sometimes think Hero needs an attitude adjustment, he is actually a very bright individual.

I put a couple of my MCITP EA exams on a card. Guess what I got 1 month after completion? A new job making 25% more plus.

Does it always work out that way? No, but anything in life you do has a level of risk, be it with credit or not.

I've known a few people that have managed to never use credit for anything, ever. And when they go to buy a house they get denied even though they make decent money and are debt free....why? No credit history.

networker050184

If you don't build up your credit, it will hurt you when you need it. You know what they say, no credit is worse than bad credit. I ran into this when I was younger and couldn't get a loan for $.02 just because I had never had any credit before.

msteinhilber

networker050184 wrote: »

If you don't build up your credit, it will hurt you when you need it. You know what they say, no credit is worse than bad credit. I ran into this when I was younger and couldn't get a loan for $.02 just because I had never had any credit before.

Using credit wisely is important to building a solid credit rating as you point out. It would have been a bigger hassle and a higher interest rate if I had not had an A+ credit score. I wouldn't have had an A+ credit score if I had not wisely used credit (and paid cash for everything as some hardcore Ramsey followers suggest).

I suppose I could done the "wise" thing according to some and saved for a decade or so and paid 200k cash for a house - but wait, that 200k house would probably be worth a lot more than that a decade or so from now so I best keep on saving.

Forsaken_GA

Hyper-Me wrote: »

Thats not what he said, at all.

He stated blatantly that not using credit is a risk. By definition, if you're debt free, you're not using credit. So yeah, he's advocating that being debt free puts you in financial risk, which is absolutely absurd. Being in hock to some one else does not put you in a position of strength, unless you think being in a position to have the rug pulled out from under you is strong.

I don't buy the need for credit to get you in a position to advance. I carried a full load of classes, worked a full time job along with any other side work I could get, and paid for school, study material, and cert exams, all without ever borrowing a penny. And I'm a lazy bastard. My first car was a 91 Geo Prizm that I paid for with cash. I drove that thing for years, until I was parted with it when Bambi stepped into the road to wish me Merry Christmas one year. My second and third cars were not, because I'd been hearing the 'you need a good credit score!' mantra so much that I actually bought into it. I financed those cars, and a laptop for the sole purpose of building credit history. The only upside to the third car is that it's now paid for and I'm still driving it. A 2000 Honda Civic with well over 120k miles on it. I fully intend to drive that car for another 3 years at least, but I'll drive it into the ground before I go buy something else.

Credit card companies do not want you to pay in full, on time. They want you to be late, or only making minimum payments. Why? Because the second you overstep your bounds, you've just become a salary for them. They want you in debt, in perpetuity for the rest of your life. If everyone did this 'intelligent' use of credit that I keep hearing about, there wouldn't *be* a credit industry - there'd be no profit in it.

And yet everyone thinks they're the one exception and knows how to beat the credit card companies at their own game. Absolute hubris.

I've known a few people that have managed to never use credit for anything, ever. And when they go to buy a house they get denied even though they make decent money and are debt free....why? No credit history.

Then they need to find a better bank. I sat down with a loan officer at my credit union to discuss that very issue. As long as I was willing to put down 20% and could present a letter from my employer on official letterhead indicating my length of employment and likelyhood of continued employment, they'd be willing to manually underwrite the loan.

And I'm still not decided on whether or not I'm going to bother with it. I've gotten myself to the point where I live on half of what I make, and it'd take me somewhere between 5 and 6 years of doing that to be able to pay cash for a house in the $150k range, and that's assuming I have absolutely no increase in income over that period of time. That's better terms than I'd get on a mortgage. I can get away with that because I live cheap, and I have absolutely no debt. Rent, utilities, gas, food, and my phone bill - that's all I have to worry about, along with a few sink funds for things like clothing and car maintenance. My training material and my certification exams are things I consider as part of my cost of living, and are budgeted appropriately.

And yeah, I know, I make it sound so easy. It's not. It's hard. I have to fight my nature to be lazy every single day. I have to stay out of the mall. Don't let me anywhere near an Apple store. And when I absolutely must eat out, it's at the Waffle House instead of Longhorn. I had to trade in my Blackberry for a phone that's *just* a phone.

What keeps me going is that the goal at the end is worth it. And I'm not special, anyone can find a way to do this if they want to. In the end, everyone has to find the path that works best for them. I may not agree with the choice to use credit, but I don't subscribe to the idea that others must be wrong in order for me to be right, I hope it works out for anyone that does make that decision, I just can't go on that hayride - I've seen to many examples of what happens when it doesn't work out.

networker050184

Obviously you have a very strong opinion about this, but just realize that doesn't make you right.

Forsaken_GA

networker050184 wrote: »

Obviously you have a very strong opinion about this, but just realize that doesn't make you right.

Of course not.

Doesn't make me wrong, either.

Bl8ckr0uter

Forsaken_GA wrote: »

And I'm still not decided on whether or not I'm going to bother with it. I've gotten myself to the point where I live on half of what I make, and it'd take me somewhere between 5 and 6 years of doing that to be able to pay cash for a house in the $150k range, and that's assuming I have absolutely no increase in income over that period of time.And yeah, I know, I make it sound so easy. It's not. It's hard. I have to fight my nature to be lazy every single day. I have to stay out of the mall. Don't let me anywhere near an Apple store. And when I absolutely must eat out, it's at the Waffle House instead of Longhorn. I had to trade in my Blackberry for a phone that's *just* a phone.

This is pretty great. One of my goals is to get it to the point where I can live off of 75% of what I make. 50% is a bit extreme for the wife and I but who knows.

I don't want to add fuel to the fire but to me there are a few situations where you need credit and those situations only exist because most people (myself included) don't have X amount of dollars saved up "just in case". A lot of people, even people with well paying jobs live pay check to pay check. My car broke down and I have to rent a car as well. To get everything squared away it cost us 1k. When the car broke down again and I had to get a new one the down payment was 3k. When I was in college and my UPS job would not cut out checks on time, I would have to use my credit card (for food). I was paying 400 for rent, about 100 for gas and 100 for food and I was making less than 800 a month, you do the math.

Pash

First of all, good luck Grinchy. You are a sound lad, and a good contributor to the boards.

I think HP has hit a few nails on the head again as always. I have never been great with my finances, but I got debt free last year through careful planning and budgeting (ohh and lots of overtime), also with the use of credit where as needed. Credit always has risk associated with it, whether it is the borrowers risk or the establishment providing the credit's risk.

I have seen two extremes of financing. My 89 year old Grandad in the last years of his life, saying things like "I dont wan't anything too elaborate" to my Dad in reference to my dad offering to go out and buy him a cd player so he can listen to some music in his lounge. This is a man who saved up well over 500k GBP of an estate over his professional life as a BBC engineer. A CD player cost's what, £10 at most these days?? They kept the same television set for 25 years at their old house in London. My mum - lovely lady (all mums are) but has all shopping channels on speed dial and has the latest of everything, she has travelled to loads of places and probably admittedly leads a very materialistic life.

There is a motto to my little story above (sorry!), spend a little so you can do what you want to do in life and enjoy it, save a little so your old age and retirement doesn't worry you.

Interestingly though, the financial times stated in an article recently (sorry couldnt find on their website, didnt search much though) that our generations will never have as much saved as generations gone by, this probably is to do with our "need" life styles though in hindsight.

I have improved tenfold where I used to have problems with finances. I have a nice little spreadsheet with budgets for everything (always assuming I work no overtime in the average month). I try to spend a little, and save a little (I made my cash ISA allowance this year, which im proud of).

For UK pats this might be helpful Money Saving Expert: Consumer Revenge - Credit Cards, Shopping, Bank Charges, Cheap Flights and more. Martin Lewis is not some self help preecher who will help you win your finances back, he gives factual usefull, helpful information on pretty much anything to do with money, the forums are well worth a check out too. Also of course hotukdeals.co.uk (fantastic for bargain buys and competition entries).

Good Luck all.