Are we suckers?

fonestar1978

Okay, first let me say that I am a tech, I love taking on new skills and learning in general. I just read about CompTIA's decision to make their exams expire after three years effective 31/12/10. I doubt I will be taking any of their exams after that date!

Let's say I am at the point in my career where I have ten different certifications that I have earned randomly over the course of some years. So these things are expiring, take months to study for sometimes, I have to book time off work or family time to write and study.... And I am making how much as an IMAC (Install, move, add, change) technician? Twenty to thirty bucks an hour? Is this worth it?

We already work in a field where often our entire lives are dictated by our Blackberry and SLA's to meet. So on top of this stress we are expected to juggle ever expiring certifications that may or may not be relevant? And the kicker is this as I have seen once you get up there in years it gets harder to make it past the HR people sometimes. There is a perception that fifty and sixty-something techs (not admins and net admins) are not going to perform as well, or with the same drive as a younger tech. Sometimes you just can't lift is much or crawl in those spaces.

And alot of this Certification is driven by the same kind of people who are trying to sell us on Web 2.0 (Gimmick 2.0). Face it, alot of this is just the same boring old protocols with patches we had in the 70's, 80's and 90's repackaged by marketing goons to make it sound fresh and exciting. I'll get excited again when I can watch a real time three dimensional movie routed over a pure IPv6 and fibre network.

The way I see it, you have to stay focused. Get the three or four certs in your field that are actually WORTH the stress maintaining. Myself I will shoot for MCSE, CCNA, CCNP and maybe CISSP.

Oh, and CompTIA in your greedy attempt to get more cash out of me to act like the big boys you lost my business. You provided more black and less white on my resume and then shot yourself in the foot.

Bl8ckr0uter

I am not really sure if I understand your point. At some point you have to make a choice whether certs are worth it to you or not. In this (and some other industries) require continual education. I agree that it is annoying but it is a cost of doing business.

leefdaddy

Pretty much any "professional" career has these same problems. If you don't like them you could always work fast food, although even then you probably have to learn to use the new microwaves from time to time.

fonestar1978

You are right you do have to make that decision. But part of the game is that the people who hire people are looking at who has the most certification. Not even always who has the most experience and education. So that's what your up against, renew, get more, or die off.

I'll give you an example, my instructor at College is a Cisco Certified Instructor and CCNP. He went for a networking job a few years ago. He was still a Certified Instructor but his CCNP had expired a few months earlier. The interviewer asked why he didn't renew and said that his cert was no longer valid. My instructor politely explained that he doesn't need to, he teaches the stuff! The interviewer told him that did not reflect a positive attitude. My instructor said he would not want to work for a place like that and I fully agree.

Alot of this, (but not all of this) is just a cash grab fuelled by marketeers, the certifying authority and hiring companies that think more is necessarily better. The CEH makes me laugh the most though! Alot of suits I have done work for have a hard time navigating Outlook or XP. What are they going to think when they see **HACKER** on your resume!!

MentholMoose

fonestar1978 wrote: »

I'll give you an example, my instructor at College is a Cisco Certified Instructor and CCNP. He went for a networking job a few years ago. He was still a Certified Instructor but his CCNP had expired a few months earlier. The interviewer asked why he didn't renew and said that his cert was no longer valid. My instructor politely explained that he doesn't need to, he teaches the stuff! The interviewer told him that did not reflect a positive attitude. My instructor said he would not want to work for a place like that and I fully agree.

For every place that cares about certs, there's another place that couldn't care less. At my current employer, nobody cares that I have certs, and they indicated as much when I was interviewed... I rarely even mention that I'm getting certs since they think it's a complete waste.

It's similar to degrees... some places insist you have one, others don't care at all.

Mrock4

fonestar1978 wrote: »

So on top of this stress we are expected to juggle ever expiring certifications that may or may not be relevant?

Well, for CompTIA, I can't really say much, but for Cisco, as long as you move forward and continue to better yourself, you never really have to recert the same exam. I have not had to recertify once since 2005, and don't intend on ever retaking the same cisco test until the CCIE (and hopefully that will be to recert only the written exam..which will subsequently recertify all lower certs, which is not a bad deal IMO).

But, Cisco aside..I see it as a necessity to even be involved in this industry. I would hate to be in a job where nothing changed over 20 years

GeeLo

fonestar1978 wrote: »

You are right you do have to make that decision. But part of the game is that the people who hire people are looking at who has the most certification. Not even always who has the most experience and education. So that's what your up against, renew, get more, or die off.

That's true.. Well said.

phoeneous

fonestar1978 wrote: »

But part of the game is that the people who hire people are looking at who has the most certification. Not even always who has the most experience and education. So that's what your up against, renew, get more, or die off.

I completely disagree. At my last job, our Senior Network Engineer didn't have any certs and we was making a very decent six figure salary. He knew his stuff and thats all he needed.

fonestar1978 wrote: »

What are they going to think when they see **HACKER** on your resume!!

Most likely offer a job if it is in the security field.


What exactly are you complaining about? I rather enjoy taking cert exams, I see it as a challenge rather than a hassle. Sounds like you're in the wrong field.

networker050184

Not really a big deal IMO. Yes you have to take time out of you busy life to study, but it makes you a better employee, and most here enjoy the learning.

Lamini

One of the catches in the field of technology is, like technology, you must continiously improve. Of course those clueless people responsible for hiring people that don't know what certs are don't help.

Hyper-Me

There are quite a few MCSE's that were so knowledgeable on the the foundation of the knowledge that they breifly review whats new in 2008 and upgrade the MCITP EA in one sitting.

Point being, you arent starting from scratch every time you start to renew or upgrade a cert. Your previous knowledge should give you quite a bit of forward momentum.

I don't think I need to go into the resons why its bad to not keep current. I think thats been beaten to death here and everyone knows it by now.

Jonk

phoeneous wrote: »

What exactly are you complaining about? I rather enjoy taking cert exams, I see it as a challenge rather than a hassle. Sounds like you're in the wrong field.

+1 Agreed.

Taking these certs is a challenge and to be honest gives insight on things that you could be weak on and you didn't even know. I enjoy studing for them, in fact they are the only subject matter that I can sit down a couple hours a day, read a few chapters and learn something. Nevermind being so excited with what i just learned and apply it to a lab, etc.

Also, about Comtia - if you are so concerned about this whole expiration nonsense, why not take the certs that you wish to get this year?

This way, you get them out of the way and you have them lifetime.

NetworkingStudent

fonestar1978 wrote: »

Okay, first let me say that I am a tech, I love taking on new skills and learning in general. I just read about CompTIA's decision to make their exams expire after three years effective 31/12/10. I doubt I will be taking any of their exams after that date!

Let's say I am at the point in my career where I have ten different certifications that I have earned randomly over the course of some years. So these things are expiring, take months to study for sometimes, I have to book time off work or family time to write and study.... And I am making how much as an IMAC (Install, move, add, change) technician? Twenty to thirty bucks an hour? Is this worth it?

We already work in a field where often our entire lives are dictated by our Blackberry and SLA's to meet. So on top of this stress we are expected to juggle ever expiring certifications that may or may not be relevant? And the kicker is this as I have seen once you get up there in years it gets harder to make it past the HR people sometimes. There is a perception that fifty and sixty-something techs (not admins and net admins) are not going to perform as well, or with the same drive as a younger tech. Sometimes you just can't lift is much or crawl in those spaces.

And alot of this Certification is driven by the same kind of people who are trying to sell us on Web 2.0 (Gimmick 2.0). Face it, alot of this is just the same boring old protocols with patches we had in the 70's, 80's and 90's repackaged by marketing goons to make it sound fresh and exciting. I'll get excited again when I can watch a real time three dimensional movie routed over a pure IPv6 and fibre network.

The way I see it, you have to stay focused. Get the three or four certs in your field that are actually WORTH the stress maintaining. Myself I will shoot for MCSE, CCNA, CCNP and maybe CISSP.

Oh, and CompTIA in your greedy attempt to get more cash out of me to act like the big boys you lost my business. You provided more black and less white on my resume and then shot yourself in the foot.

I would say that certification is a necessary evil, if you want to stay employed in IT. I say evil, because yes, it does cost a lot of money to keep certifications current, and to obtain new ones. I don’t mind the studying part, because I like learning new things, especially technology wise. This is the one field were the learning never ends!! Technology is always changing, and IT professionals must try their best to keep their certification and knowledge current. Certifications help IT professionals because it help..
Validates their experience
Gets promotions
And helps them apply for better jobs
It also helps them stayed employed
*Think of a certification like a tool in a tool box. You have a tool box used to get and keep your job and, certification is only one of those tools. You also have your personality, experience, social skills, knowledge, education..ect..ect… All these tools must be sharp in order for you to keep your job, and for the company to be profitable. This is the way I see certification, as a tool for you to stay employed.
If we didn’t have certifications, it’s my belief that a lot of us would be in college every 3 years or less taking tons and I mean tons of continuing education classes.

mikej412

phoeneous wrote: »

our Senior Network Engineer didn't have any certs and we was making a very decent six figure salary. He knew his stuff and thats all he needed.

Sounds like me -- 13 years ago.

How old is he? Is he planning to retire from that job? Or die? Is he working for the one company that still guarantees lifetime employment?

As long as his industry contacts haven't retired (or died, or been laid off, or left IT) he's probably okay if he needs to find a new job. But if he has to join the cattle call for a job, exactly what keywords does he expect to get his resume pulled from a pile for a job interview?

phoeneous

mikej412 wrote: »

Sounds like me -- 13 years ago.

How old is he? Is he planning to retire from that job? Or die? Is he working for the one company that still guarantees lifetime employment?

As long as his industry contacts haven't retired (or died, or been laid off, or left IT) he's probably okay if he needs to find a new job. But if he has to join the cattle call for a job, exactly what keywords does he expect to get his resume pulled from a pile for a job interview?

He is now working for another company doing virtualization stuff, ESX and MS. I think he passed his VCP which is the only cert he has and it was requested by the employer. Still making six figures though.

My point was, there is a difference between having an encyclopedia of certs and no experience and having a ton of expert experience and no certs. And Im pretty sure Im not the first nor the last to say that.

mikej412

phoeneous wrote: »

there is a difference between having an encyclopedia of certs and no experience and having a ton of expert experience and no certs.

I'll drink to that -- some of the most "over-certified" people I've ever met work on help desks, yet don't actually have any of the skills or knowledge that would get them off the phones.

SephStorm

Its a toss up. Years ago you didn't need those certs to get those jobs, so a guy who has been admin at a company for twenty years maybe didn't need certs when he came into the industry. Now if he leaves the company, depending on where he goes, he may be able to get an interview just with his experience, maybe not. Same thing with degrees. Some companies don't care if you have the degree. One of these companies hires you, ten years down the line, you are trying to get a new job, and they don't look at you twice.

RobertKaucher

mikej412 wrote: »

I'll drink to that -- some of the most "over-certified" people I've ever met work on help desks, yet don't actually have any of the skills or knowledge that would get them off the phones.

Yes, but sometimes those skills are not technical. One such person I knew had the knowledge but was such a f-up he could not progress out of the helpdesk. He was a good guy, and he knew his stuff but he just made bad choices and put himself in bad situations. Once he was rebuilding a laptop and did not keep track of his skrews and put one that was too long right through a mobo. Lack of attention to detail, lack of respect for authority, and a general chip on his shoulder got him nowhere fast. No MCSE can compensate for those shortfalls.

rage_hog

fonestar1978 wrote: »

We already work in a field where often our entire lives are dictated by our Blackberry and SLA's

You, "Boss, this has got to end. It stops now! Right here."
Boss, "Ok, well you got the on call phone before you leave for the weekend?"
You, "Yes sir."
Boss, "Good, I thought you might."

RobertKaucher

phoeneous wrote: »

He is now working for another company doing virtualization stuff, ESX and MS. I think he passed his VCP which is the only cert he has and it was requested by the employer. Still making six figures though.

My point was, there is a difference between having an encyclopedia of certs and no experience and having a ton of expert experience and no certs. And Im pretty sure Im not the first nor the last to say that.

No, you certainly are not the first but that doesn't make it any less true, does it? And I would point out that at his level certification is not important except as a cherry on a very skillfully iced cake. One does not simply certify their way to 6 figures. How many of the job postings you guys see that require MCSE are for 100K jobs?

I see the importance of certification to me as a way to measure my skills in a technology and as a way to plan out my learning. It's also a way to standout as an applicant. But essentially I am doing it to compensate for my lack of experience. I have very little hands on experience with SQL Server compared to many DBAs and I'm using my studies to help me to learn more so that as I gradually gain experience I am making fewer mistakes and reinforce what I learned in the certification process.

I'm no sucker, though. I have a very specifiec trajectory in mind and I am working hard to follow it and progress professionally.

But I think the OP's point is related a bit to what we all discussed in Hyper-Me's thread about certifying on a single vendor. It all comes down to when in your career you decide to start specializing and really learning two or so things exceptionally well. You don't need a catalog of certs just a set of up-to-date and relevent ones. Couple this with a decade as a generalist, a few years of focused experience in your specific area and you have a solid midlevel *insert title here*.

Bl8ckr0uter

There are very few jobs that do not require growth to advanced (and to keep up with the changing demands jobs). I think certs are just tangibles that show something that is understood, you will have to continue to develop yourself to move ahead. You gotta deal with that in anyway you see fit....

rszpanderfer

I don't think we're suckers at all. In fact, certifications are useful regardless, because it never hurts to educate yourself. You can only benefit from certifications.

Personally, I really enjoy it. I love reading, preparing, educating myself, and I love the challenge and thrill of taking the exams. The sense of accomplishment when you walk out of that testing center with a passing score is just great.

phoeneous

RobertKaucher wrote: »

I see the importance of certification to me as a way to measure my skills in a technology and as a way to plan out my learning.

All of my certs, current and future, have been or will be acquired on my own accord.

JDMurray

fonestar1978 wrote: »

I just read about CompTIA's decision to make their exams expire after three years effective 31/12/10. I doubt I will be taking any of their exams after that date!

Only the A+, Network+, and Security+ will have a 3-year renewal period. This is because the U.S. Department of Defense regards them as the most valuable and necessary of CompTIA's certs. The other, less valuable and less worthwhile of CompTIA's certs, will remain lifetime certifications.

IT Certifications and DoD Directive 8570.01-M | TechExams.net Blogs

fonestar1978

JDMurray wrote: »

Only the A+, Network+, and Security+ will have a 3-year renewal period. This is because the U.S. Department of Defense regards them as the most valuable and necessary of CompTIA's certs. The other, less valuable and less worthwhile of CompTIA's certs, will remain lifetime certifications.

IT Certifications and DoD Directive 8570.01-M | TechExams.net Blogs

Well that's an interesting addendum to my own knowledge base. So part of this is because of the US Department of Defense? Okay, the Security+..... maybe I can see. But A+ and Network+? I'm pretty sure an ATA drive will still be an ATA drive three years from now and I'm pretty sure ssh will still use port 22 three years from now. If we start to see Walmart selling liquid cooled quantum computers then I can see the need to re-do the A+!!

fonestar1978

phoeneous wrote: »

I completely disagree. At my last job, our Senior Network Engineer didn't have any certs and we was making a very decent six figure salary. He knew his stuff and thats all he needed.



Most likely offer a job if it is in the security field.


What exactly are you complaining about? I rather enjoy taking cert exams, I see it as a challenge rather than a hassle. Sounds like you're in the wrong field.

Yes, I am aware of what our cult thinks of the term hacker, I'm sure I don't have to explain what 95% of people (including most of the suits who will give you a job) think of the term. And yes, I am definitely in the right field. Having doubts about whether you're being exploited doesn't mean you're in the wrong field and many other techs would agree with me.

dynamik

Completing a minimum amount of continuing education and paying up to a $49 maintenance fee hardly seems to be "exploitation". You don't even have to retake the exams. People with more experience and higher-level certifications will probably just let them lapse. Aside from government positions that require the Security+, I don't see a lot of value in maintaining these as you advance in your career.

I think the term "hacker" has negative connotations for the public at large. That's why security professionals frequently go out of their way to qualify the work they do as "ethical hacking" or "white hat hacking". For this reason, I would probably leave the CEH off of my resume if I ever applied for a position that wasn't in the industry and the staff wasn't familiar with the terminology.

wd40

fonestar1978 wrote: »

Well that's an interesting addendum to my own knowledge base. So part of this is because of the US Department of Defense? Okay, the Security+..... maybe I can see. But A+ and Network+? I'm pretty sure an ATA drive will still be an ATA drive three years from now and I'm pretty sure ssh will still use port 22 three years from now. If we start to see Walmart selling liquid cooled quantum computers then I can see the need to re-do the A+!!

What about SATA, USB 3.0, IPv6, the new windows 7, SSD's, BlueRay Core i processors, new RAM standards etc etc

When I took my A+ 7 years ago none of these were in the exam.

JDMurray

fonestar1978 wrote: »

But A+ and Network+? I'm pretty sure an ATA drive will still be an ATA drive three years from now and I'm pretty sure ssh will still use port 22 three years from now. If we start to see Walmart selling liquid cooled quantum computers then I can see the need to re-do the A+!!

Read my blog article; it explains the details.

twodogs62

yes and no......

Certify for a reason and not just to get to paper.
Brain **** don't get you anything.

Here is what I use:
1. Continuing education is always good.
(always good to be learning)
2. the right cert will stretch your brain and expose you to new material.
(sometimes in a job you learn it well, but sometimes get outside of the
sandbox)
3. look good on resume (have it to put on resume as needed)
(And note: you may not always want to put all certs. Pick the certs
that will help you land the job you want.) Too many certs may make
a resume look too busy.
4. Professional growth you can present to your employer each year

I'm thinking just be to have a good reason to spend the time and effort to get a certification. It is expensive and it takes a lot of time. So consider the opportunity cost also. I could be playing with the kids, or going on a trip???

Once we thought a degree was enough, but the industry has made it where extra knowledge and up-to-date knowledge is required.

I enjoy learning and do enjoy the thrill of exam day and wanting to win with a pass.

I try to do one a year partly due to time and expense. However, sometimes these are not new certifications since it may be a renewal of a cert that is required.

So, you have to consider renewal schedule versus obtaining new certs.

At some point there is a break point where you either have to drop expiring cert or go for a new certification.

Just think of this for some that say no big deal on Comptia's re-certification. I don't understand them.

If I have 5 certifications and each expire every 3 years. I may be doing nothing but retaking the same exam to renew my certs. I may also add two or three more advanced certs and these may expire at 4 or 5 years.

So quickly the cost of ownership of these certifications becomes too high and something must give.

Just be sure and pick wisely the certifications you choose. And if you do, then you have accomplished a good thing.

phoeneous

fonestar1978 wrote: »

Having doubts about whether you're being exploited doesn't mean you're in the wrong field and many other techs would agree with me.

How exactly are you being "expoited"? It's not like its the bar exam for lawyers where if you dont pass, you dont practice. If you dont want to get certified then dont, noone is forcing you to.