I need the opinion of the experienced IT (cisco)pros.

AlexMR

I am currently working towards my CCNP. My goal is to work for a Cisco Business Partner to get as much experience in the field as possible.

My path is going to be be CCNP (now ready fo the BSCI!! and with lots of time to study for the remaining exams) -> CCDA ->CCDP and/or CCIP. Hopefully i will get both CCNP and DA before 2011.

I am a little troubled because I am under the impression that here in my country the CCNP is a ticket to a very good job with lots of opportunities for growth. But the fact that the CCNA and CCNA Voice havent gotten me a lot of interviews when i thought they would, troubles me. A senior DBA that interviewed me said that the CCNP certification should be a door opener to practically whatever place I wanted, especially a Cisco Partner. The director of a Cisco Academy told me before I got my CCNA that he was having a real hard time finding instructors with the CCNP, in order to teach some classes that were in demand. The reality iis that I am getting a little impatient and now I started a couple projects that give some economic stability but I do want to start in the field as soon as possible. I know I am qualified to do CCNA jobs, but apparently what makes the CCNP so desirable to the partners is not the skills you get in the training (maybe there are a lot of pros with ccnp level knowledge without the cert) but but the certification itself.

I got an interview with a CCIE and another tech and they were very praiseful and congratulated me all the time for my efforts. I thought i was going to get the job until the very last part where the HR lady said that "the company was growing so fast and that if it was not now it was going to be very soon" (that i will get the chance). I then heard the other CCIE, who was actually the hiring manager, requested specifically "some experience" for the Jr. Cisco network engineer position. I would have taken that position without pay.

At this point, I want to start working in the field so badly, and simply dont have what it takes to get started and be noticeable. I am only under impressions. I think the CCNP will open doors. But I also thought the CCNA and Voice specializations would and they didnt. In general I am determined to keep studying and getting cisco certifications until they do it for me. But on the other hand in days like today i just feel i need to get started and I asked myself if I should follow the DBA advice of diversifying to more in demand technologies like Microsoft, and then keep working with cisco and make the "lateral" movement later. I read the 70-640 AD book by Sybex and also did most of the Testout training that a friend of mine has, and I really liked all the stuff. I got hooked to it, and couldnt put the book down until i finished it. That makes me think it wouldnt be so bad to go that route.

What would you do at this point? Please dont tell I need experience because that is really obvious. Tell me what i can do to get the experience. Would you stick to Cisco until the certifications are so many that they feel they need to give me the chance? As I said, I dont think I would need more than the CCNP to get started, but I might be off.

I've heard posts by Mike who said at his company they're not losing their time with CCNPs with no experience. My IMPRESSION is that here in my country they are giving the chances to them, but I dont know for sure. The amount of work that ive put to FEEL ready for the exam has been huge. I already started reading the BCMSN and SWITCH guide and I can see that is a way easier material and less quantity, but just thinking that I will have to put all those crazy hours to for each of the two exams without working in the field is just a little tough. I can deal with. Make no mistake about it. I will do it if that's what it takes, but damn it feels like neverending at times.

Tell me what you think and what you would do!

mikej412

If there were that many unfilled "CCNP Openings" that they'd be willing to take a CCNP with no experience, then why aren't the existing CCNAs with experience doing those jobs and leaving the "CCNA Positions" open for CCNAs without experience?

What is your current IT experience? What are you doing to get IT experience?

Have you checked with your local Cisco Business Partners for ANY job opening? Delivery Driver? Warehouse? Receptionist? Support Line Phone Agent? You don't want to be obnoxious, but you do want someone to notice your eagerness to work for them and your willingness to start at the bottom and a chance to work your way up.

moonlight08

AlexMR wrote: »

I am currently working towards my CCNP.

<snip>

I then heard the other CCIE, who was actually the hiring manager, requested specifically "some experience" for the Jr. Cisco network engineer position. I would have taken that position without pay.

From what I'm reading, it sounds like you don't have any experience in the field you're interested in. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

If I'm hiring a candidate and targeting people specifically with a CCNP or higher, I'm expecting a pretty seasoned candidate to come into my office and talk about what he/she's done, setbacks they've encountered, listen to a tale or two about a crunch they were in and how they fixed it, and what they can bring to the table.

If you have no experience in this field, you're probably wondering how to get your foot in the door then, right? Start at the bottom is the best advice I can give you. I'll almost always have someone in a comparable position already working with me and if you really want to shine, while not having sufficient experience, then the knowledge you have had better surpass the guy I've already got onboard working for me.

I can tell you now though it has never happened in the current position I'm in and in my entire career, I can count on one hand the number of people who were capable of this.

AlexMR

Mike,

What I think it's happening is there arent that many CCNA with experience positions available, but there are quite a few CCNP levell positions that are hard to fill. In fact, more than a simple hunch, it's the situation on two big possible employers for Cisco professionals, the big partner I had the interview with and the big telco the DBA works for. Bpoth those places have recently hired CCNP level people to let them go because they didnt deliver and it was obvious to them they diidnt have the level they were looking. A friend who works in the big partner told me the CCIEs even rechecked to confirm what was "CCNP level" because so many candidates had failed an exam they had made for the position. As you know there is a big leap from CCNA level to CCNP level. One that im not sure most peoplke would ever fill only with experience.

Current IT experience is practically 0. When i was 18 (now 30) I had a job as graphical designer and then was the sysadmin for a windows NT environment and about 8-10 Windows 97-98 clients. I know quite a bit about hardware too, as i used to help a friend when he was selling computers. I am actively looking for job, other than that Im not doing nothing tro gain experience.

First thing I did after passing ICND2 was go to cisco.com and find out about the partners. I got all phone numbers, called and asked if they had any openings. There were two in about 14 companies and none were for CCNA level. They didnt specify what kind of job it was, and i didnt ask more than if they had job openings for CCNAs. I think i caused a very good impression in the team, especially the HR manager. She gave me her card and I never called back. I think i should have.

To be honest, I am not an expert in interviews. This is only the second one I have been that im not offered the job. In the other one, I also thought they were going to make an offer and they didnt, but they said they already had the candidates "preselected" when they saw me. Maybe i think i do better than what i actually do on the interviews.

I was considering letting them know I was willing to start working for them even as an intership, for free, but somebody suggested i shouldnt do that. I have been a business owner, and I dont think i would refuse a person who is willing to work with me for free just for the opportunity to learn. Maybe I should have said it.

Bl8ckr0uter

AlexMR wrote: »

Mike,

What I think it's happening is there arent that many CCNA with experience positions available, but there are quite a few CCNP levell positions that are hard to fill. In fact, more than a simple hunch, it's the situation on two big possible employers for Cisco professionals, the big partner I had the interview with and the big telco the DBA works for. Bpoth those places have recently hired CCNP level people to let them go because they didnt deliver and it was obvious to them they diidnt have the level they were looking. A friend who works in the big partner told me the CCIEs even rechecked to confirm what was "CCNP level" because so many candidates had failed an exam they had made for the position. As you know there is a big leap from CCNA level to CCNP level. One that im not sure most peoplke would ever fill only with experience.

Current IT experience is practically 0. When i was 18 (now 30) I had a job as graphical designer and then was the sysadmin for a windows NT environment and about 8-10 Windows 97-98 clients. I know quite a bit about hardware too, as i used to help a friend when he was selling computers. I am actively looking for job, other than that Im not doing nothing tro gain experience.

First thing I did after passing ICND2 was go to cisco.com and find out about the partners. I got all phone numbers, called and asked if they had any openings. There were two in about 14 companies and none were for CCNA level. They didnt specify what kind of job it was, and i didnt ask more than if they had job openings for CCNAs. I think i caused a very good impression in the team, especially the HR manager. She gave me her card and I never called back. I think i should have.

To be honest, I am not an expert in interviews. This is only the second one I have been that im not offered the job. In the other one, I also thought they were going to make an offer and they didnt, but they said they already had the candidates "preselected" when they saw me. Maybe i think i do better than what i actually do on the interviews.

I was considering letting them know I was willing to start working for them even as an intership, for free, but somebody suggested i shouldnt do that. I have been a business owner, and I dont think i would refuse a person who is willing to work with me for free just for the opportunity to learn. Maybe I should have said it.

I feel you on this. Being an NA with little experience sucks a$$. Its like no one really cares about the NA (especially not NA level knowledge) in the real world. Honestly the CCNA is like just another test to get the NP for some people or something to add to a sysadmins resume.

DevilWAH

In my case I not really even thinking about the 'big' job's untill I have passed my CCNP, The more I carry out certificates the more I see how narrow my expertise are.

And CCNA really is a entry level exam.

You get eperince by getting a help desk job, That is still what I am paid to do, my job title. But in the next few week I am deploying CISCO ACS server across our entire network. No one asked me to do it, some one mentioned we needed to look at port security. So i researched it in my own time, showed them a few ideas, mention the fact they can pay £900 a day to get some one to tell them the same thing. And its my project to plan, implement and monitor.

Ok so it might not be the most amazing complex project in the world, but that how you get experience. You take what ever job you can find, and then find projects to take on that expose you to new areas.

apd123

These days head counts are down. It makes more sense for a lot of places to outsource to expertise rather than keeping entry level IT staff on hand. Larger companies who do staff will likely want a greater level of expertise as their networks are more complex.

AlexMR

apd123 wrote: »

These days head counts are down. It makes more sense for a lot of places to outsource to expertise rather than keeping entry level IT staff on hand. Larger companies who do staff will likely want a greater level of expertise as their networks are more complex.

I guess I'll keep studying until I'm impressive then. And will start calling and even visiting the business partners to find out first about any job openings and getting to know the people. I have contacts in two of them.

mikej412

AlexMR wrote: »

I guess I'll keep studying until I'm impressive then.

Part of being impressive is experience -- what's your plan for that?

ColbyG

Find a NOC job, even it's bottom of the barrel monitoring stuff. Work your way up. No certification is going to guarantee you a job, ESPECIALLY without any experience.

jjbrog

Luckily for me I already work for a cisco partner, however what I do has NOTHING to do with IT what so ever, but since I'm a current employee I'm hoping that gives me somewhat of a edge when I do finally get certified

AlexMR

mikej412 wrote: »

Part of being impressive is experience -- what's your plan for that?

I am going to follow your advice and try to be more proactive in my approach to find a job. I am going to call Cisco business partners and pay them a visit every now and then. I am now doing a couple things that should cover me economically, I will try to find something as a volunteer, even though that is not something common around here. I know I caused a good impression in the interview the other day,I will call the HR manager tomorrow to hear why I wasnt offered the job and if there will be any job openings soon and what I could do to get a chance....

Other than that, I really dont know what to do in that regard. If you have any other ideas just let me know.

There is a small problem here with starting at thee bottom. Apparently in the US they dont pay much attention to your background. When you get to IT you start at the bottom. Not here. In both the interviews I've been, they have shown interest in my previous experiences, project management skills and experience and budgeting and estimating. They have explicitly say they wont put me in the bottom even when I've said I'm ok with it.

mikej412

AlexMR wrote: »

I know I caused a good impression in the interview the other day,I will call the HR manager tomorrow to hear why I wasnt offered the job and if there will be any job openings soon and what I could do to get a chance....

That that's definitely good.

While in the US a lot of times it's hard to get a hold of some of the HR wonks or hiring managers to get feedback about your interview, when you can it's always a good thing. If you were a candidate they considered (and liked) but were beat out by someone more qualified (or they liked better ) -- you still could be considered for the next opening if you express the interest with those questions (job openings soon & what you could do to get a chance).

AlexMR wrote: »

There is a small problem here with starting at thee bottom. Apparently in the US they dont pay much attention to your background. When you get to IT you start at the bottom.

Some people do luck out or have a friend/family/neighbor that get's them into a job that a stranger (with the exact same qualifications) walking in off the street doesn't have a chance at getting.

If you're at the top of your class in school and have instructors with industry contacts or had internships during school and had an impact on projects at those companies, you stand a good chance of getting opportunities after graduation that average students with no experience never even hear about.

Starting at the bottom, like a help desk position, is the "fallback option" if you can't find a way into a better through your contacts (teachers, friends, family, former co-workers, etc) -- or your academic career was less than stellar, or your knowledge & skills still need some work.

Lots of people have walked into positions with small and medium companies with no certifications and not much education and somehow managed to learn and do the job -- and hopefully continued their education and worked on certifications. Then they train the next guy willing to work cheap, hand over the IT department to them, and then move on to larger company willing to pay for their experience.

AlexMR wrote: »

Not here. In both the interviews I've been, they have shown interest in my previous experiences, project management skills and experience and budgeting and estimating. They have explicitly say they wont put me in the bottom even when I've said I'm ok with it.

While compliments are nice, nothing really matters until they offer you a job. But definitely follow up with them in the future if they've given you the slightest hint you could be considered for future positions.

AlexMR

Good news!

I called the HR manager and she said I was in the eligible list for the next Jr. Engineer position that comes up, that could be in the next few days. She said that they all really liked my profile and definitely will be called whn something comes up.

Also, I achieve one of the points in my strategy: I will meet next week with the two CCIEs! .

I asked her about training/certifications that were desirable to them and how I wanted to know what would make me more attractive to them and she said that definitely the CCNP is great, but she thinks it would be better if I meet with the "guys". .

The position they interviewed me for has not been filled, but I am not eligible for that one mostly because, as she told my friend, the hiring manager requires a candidate with certain experience. But now I will meet with him for "career advice and guidance".

Next week but exact date needs to be confirmed. Today has been great so far. .

Bl8ckr0uter

AlexMR wrote: »

Good news!

I called the HR manager and she said I was in the eligible list for the next Jr. Engineer position that comes up, that could be in the next few days. She said that they all really liked my profile and definitely will be called whn something comes up.

Also, I achieve one of the points in my strategy: I will meet next week with the two CCIEs! .

I asked her about training/certifications that were desirable to them and how I wanted to know what would make me more attractive to them and she said that definitely the CCNP is great, but she thinks it would be better if I meet with the "guys". .

The position they interviewed me for has not been filled, but I am not eligible for that one mostly because, as she told my friend, the hiring manager requires a candidate with certain experience. But now I will meet with him for "career advice and guidance".

Next week but exact date needs to be confirmed. Today has been great so far. .

Thats great dude. Keep us posted.

mikej412

AlexMR wrote: »

But now I will meet with him for "career advice and guidance".

While there are no certifications for People Skills, you seem to have some pretty good knowledge and skills in that area.