Tech jobs vs. technical careers, how to break on through?

fonestar1978

I've been stuck doing tech jobs for the last three years. I will not insult any real technicians out there by calling this technical work. Crawling under people's desks to plug in cat5e is not technical work. Replacing a dead NIC is not technical work. Re-installing another virus-infested XP machine is not technical work. Laying bricks is not being an architect.

The way I see it these jobs would more aptly be titled "dead-end user care" or maybe "child support". The primary reason for these "hardware technician" jobs is, 1 - liability issues (some people are so inept they will destroy thousands of dollars worth of hardware and electrocute themselves), 2 - people are too lazy to google or wiki things, 3 - people are too timid to try things themselves or learn things.

There needs to be some critical distinctions made here. It would seem even people on this forum have fallen victim to this tech/technician paradox. One person replied to my post saying that he worked with a fellow who got fired because even though he was an MCSE he had a bad attitude and put the wrong screw through a motherboard. Excuse me? Why the hell is an MCSE re-assembling a board in the first freaking place?? That is what an electronics technician does (well, a very minor part of it) not a system administrator or a certified network engineer!!! How the hell does learning about setting up Server 2003 help you put screws in the right place? How does studying Dijkstra's algorithm help you put toner in an HP printer? Let's get this straight, people ***** about how brain-**** are devaluing your certifications? I say quit devaluing your intelligence by calling these monkey-jobs technical positions!

In another three months I will have a college certificate in networking and have already passed the CCENT and then the full CCNA is on my hit-list. I've worked with people who have their CCNA and MCSE's and even diplomas and degrees and have crawled under people's desks for ten years. Damned if I'm going to do this to stay in these monkey-jobs though! What did you have to do to break on through?

Hyper-Me

With the way the economy is and downsizing, its more and more likely that you will see MCSE's, MCITPS, CCNPs, etc crawling under desks and plugging in ethernet cables.

Less people are doing more jobs and taking on more responsibility these days. Unless you find a fairly large company (or government entity) with very distinctly divided departments it will always be this way.

networker050184

Whoa buddy, relax. Maybe some people don't mind doing that kind of work. If you don't, educate yourself about what you want to do and move on. No need to trash talk someone's job because its not what you want to do.

AlexMR

We make assumptions and play accordingly. Some people think a MSCE and a CCNA should get them a decent job and start studying for those. When they have it, they are hired to plug cables.

You have two and only two kinds of people. One that stays there lamenting about how much life sucks, and there are others who try to find out what really takes to make it, develop a second plan and stick to it. CCNP? Let's go!! Two MCITP? Im at it and you'll be mine, %#@$%! .

Now, I think you actually have a very good question, OP. . What is it that one will have to do to get some hits and interviews? CErtainly not a CCNA and CCNA Voice. LOL.

I was told the CCNA will be my way in to IT. A couple months ago I was told a coupld MCTS could do the trick. Then I was told that a CCNP would be a key to w/e place i wanted to work. Who knows. I just know that if I stick to it I will get abreak. When I think about it, it took me 5 years to get a job as an engineer and about 7 to get a job as an structural engineer. This IT thing is like a piece of cake if you think about it .

Good luck.

rsutton

IT is a customer service industry. Even as a sys admin, or a net admin, you will have to deal with idiotic users. If you really hate users that much, look in to programming, instead of interacting with idiotic users, you can deal with idiotic project managers.

pml1

fonestar1978 wrote: »

I've been stuck doing tech jobs for the last three years. I will not insult any real technicians out there by calling this technical work. Crawling under people's desks to plug in cat5e is not technical work. Replacing a dead NIC is not technical work. Re-installing another virus-infested XP machine is not technical work. Laying bricks is not being an architect.

Man, did I get fired and you got hired to replace me, and I don't know it yet? That sounds like my job, too

AlexMR wrote: »

I was told the CCNA will be my way in to IT. A couple months ago I was told a coupld MCTS could do the trick. Then I was told that a CCNP would be a key to w/e place i wanted to work. Who knows. I just know that if I stick to it I will get abreak. When I think about it, it took me 5 years to get a job as an engineer and about 7 to get a job as an structural engineer. This IT thing is like a piece of cake if you think about it .

I'm still working towards an MCSA, so my opinion may not have too much weight on this subject, but I think you're hitting at the core issue here. There is no magic formula to success in an IT career. In the era of brain **** and paper certs, just having a piece of paper with a few letters next to your name is no guarantee of a great job.

Certs are important, but they are only part of the complete picture. IT is largely a customer service industry these days. Soft skills are more important than ever. Problem solving skills are non-negotiable. The ability to network (in a human networking sense) can open doors. And perhaps the most important skill of all is the ability to articulate your proficiency in the above ares on a resume...and then in an interview.

It would be nice if passing a few tests and getting a few pieces of paper would guarantee a great job with a great salary, but it doesn't. That same monkey who can screw down a motherboard and crawl under desks to plug in a cat 5...can also memorize answers and regurgitate them on an exam.

Fonestar, I'm not saying that you're lacking in any of the skills I mentioned above, nor am I insulting your skill level. Finding good jobs right now is difficult. I'm just pointing out some things you may want to think about as you search for a better career. Good luck!

fonestar1978

[QUOTE=pml1;389532

Certs are important, but they are only part of the complete picture. IT is largely a customer service industry these days. Soft skills are more important than ever. Problem solving skills are non-negotiable. The ability to network (in a human networking sense) can open doors. And perhaps the most important skill of all is the ability to articulate your proficiency in the above ares on a resume...and then in an interview.

It would be nice if passing a few tests and getting a few pieces of paper would guarantee a great job with a great salary, but it doesn't. That same monkey who can screw down a motherboard and crawl under desks to plug in a cat 5...can also memorize answers and regurgitate them on an exam.
[/QUOTE]

Funny you mention that. I love (hate) that HR speak, "soft skills"? I always just assumed that was something that was taken for granted, that we treat people with kindness, greet them with a smile and leave them wanting to use our services again. That was before some people turned that subject into something worthy of a degree in itself somehow!

Yes, customer service is always going to be important for these "McTech Jobs". For poor Mr Anderson that's been downloading virus-pr0n again to his XP machine. I don't see how all the soft skills in the world are going to help you during a broadcast storm on your system. I don't see how these soft skills are going to help you when your server is being DoS'd off the internet! Personally, I would expect to see someone swear a bit in those circumstances and work like hell to resolve the issues!

Personally, I think people are b*tching too much about the Brain-**** scenarios and I don't know how much they are really affecting the value of certs. Take the CCNA/CCNP material. You either can subnet on the fly or you can't. You either know the material or you don't. All the brain-**** in the world won't really help you pass these tests. I tend to think we are getting mad at whatever because alot of times these certs only get you menial jobs to begin with.

Myself, I am thinking that I will work towards a Degree and learn a language that isn't going out of style anytime soon, C++/Java. Maybe that will help me crawl out from under the desk!

Bl8ckr0uter

fonestar1978 wrote: »

Yes, customer service is always going to be important for these "McTech Jobs". For poor Mr Anderson that's been downloading virus-pr0n again to his XP machine. I don't see how all the soft skills in the world are going to help you during a broadcast storm on your system. I don't see how these soft skills are going to help you when your server is being DoS'd off the internet! Personally, I would expect to see someone swear a bit in those circumstances and work like hell to resolve the issues!

You are right, soft skills will not be the primary/only source of a solution in those situations, however they will be used in the prevention and explanation of those problems/situations.

For an example Mr Anderson maybe downloading **** to get viruses, but it is also entirely possible that he may just be opening attachments on an email or going to seemingly legit sites to access software he thinks he needs. Simply calling him a retard and telling him to stop doing whatever the hell he is doing is not going to be as effective as explaining to him how he can prevent getting these viruses by using safe browsing techniques and run a virus/spyware scanner every x time period.

Maybe the broadcast storm was caused by someone plugging a switch into itself. Maybe that person was another tech or co worker who isn't as familiar with networking as you are. Maybe this person is your boss who made a simple mistake. Are you going to call your boss stupid and curse him/her out while trying to fix the problem? If you do, you will probably end up fixing the issue and then find yourself unemployed.

Soft skills also come into play when you have to explain RFOs and other things of that nature.

networker050184

fonestar1978 wrote: »

Funny you mention that. I love (hate) that HR speak, "soft skills"? I always just assumed that was something that was taken for granted, that we treat people with kindness, greet them with a smile and leave them wanting to use our services again. That was before some people turned that subject into something worthy of a degree in itself somehow!

Yes, customer service is always going to be important for these "McTech Jobs". For poor Mr Anderson that's been downloading virus-pr0n again to his XP machine. I don't see how all the soft skills in the world are going to help you during a broadcast storm on your system. I don't see how these soft skills are going to help you when your server is being DoS'd off the internet! Personally, I would expect to see someone swear a bit in those circumstances and work like hell to resolve the issues!

Personally, I think people are b*tching too much about the Brain-**** scenarios and I don't know how much they are really affecting the value of certs. Take the CCNA/CCNP material. You either can subnet on the fly or you can't. You either know the material or you don't. All the brain-**** in the world won't really help you pass these tests. I tend to think we are getting mad at whatever because alot of times these certs only get you menial jobs to begin with.

Myself, I am thinking that I will work towards a Degree and learn a language that isn't going out of style anytime soon, C++/Java. Maybe that will help me crawl out from under the desk!

You sound very ignorant to the way things really work. Having soft skills are very important when you get to the higher level technical positions. They may not help you directly solve the problem, but when you are in a higher position you will need to brief higher ups and C level execs on issues. If you can not effectively communicate the technical problems to non technical people its not going to matter how good you are with the 1s and the 0s.


As far as certifications, if you have some experience to go along with those higher certs trust me you won't have to crawl under a desk anymore. Its the help desk guy that has all those paper certs that is still stuck doing that. If you go about certifications the smart way they will pay off big time.

eMeS

networker050184 wrote: »

You sound very ignorant to the way things really work. Having soft skills are very important when you get to the higher level technical positions. They may not help you directly solve the problem, but when you are in a higher position you will need to brief higher ups and C level execs on issues. If you can not effectively communicate the technical problems to non technical people its not going to matter how good you are with the 1s and the 0s.


As far as certifications, if you have some experience to go along with those higher certs trust me you won't have to crawl under a desk anymore. Its the help desk guy that has all those paper certs that is still stuck doing that. If you go about certifications the smart way they will pay off big time.

I couldn't possibly agree more with what networker has said here.

To the OP, you seem misguided and a bit condescending. You remind me of this: http://www.geeksugar.com/Nick-Burns-Your-Companys-Computer-Guy-SNL-Video-1573854 . IMO What you're missing most is that those "children" that you support today might one day in the future turn into connections that help you get a job.

MS

Turgon

fonestar1978 wrote: »

Funny you mention that. I love (hate) that HR speak, "soft skills"? I always just assumed that was something that was taken for granted, that we treat people with kindness, greet them with a smile and leave them wanting to use our services again. That was before some people turned that subject into something worthy of a degree in itself somehow!

Yes, customer service is always going to be important for these "McTech Jobs". For poor Mr Anderson that's been downloading virus-pr0n again to his XP machine. I don't see how all the soft skills in the world are going to help you during a broadcast storm on your system. I don't see how these soft skills are going to help you when your server is being DoS'd off the internet! Personally, I would expect to see someone swear a bit in those circumstances and work like hell to resolve the issues!

Personally, I think people are b*tching too much about the Brain-**** scenarios and I don't know how much they are really affecting the value of certs. Take the CCNA/CCNP material. You either can subnet on the fly or you can't. You either know the material or you don't. All the brain-**** in the world won't really help you pass these tests. I tend to think we are getting mad at whatever because alot of times these certs only get you menial jobs to begin with.

Myself, I am thinking that I will work towards a Degree and learn a language that isn't going out of style anytime soon, C++/Java. Maybe that will help me crawl out from under the desk!

We are defined by the work we do. To get on, get involved in the *right* sort of work..

The certs are important. At least the *process* you choose to go through to get them is. You may learn something that will help you punch your weight in an interview or in an incident at work or in a meeting. Braindumpers learn much less and I dont know anyone who is a whizz at subnetting by dumping..

Regarding Mctech jobs..they do exist..in spades. They are also going offshore rapidly. How do you define rapidly? Difficult to quantify that but it is happening particularly in this economy. A lot of companies are not making money so the C-level execs get replaced. How can they *quickly* impact the bottom line? Cost savings.

About 9 years ago I was on a forum where a tech said we were the Steel Workers of the 21st century. There's a lot of truth in that. So what can you do about it?

First some history..

Circa 1992 - 2000 massive impetus for companies to join the dot com party. A lot of fortunes were made during this crazy time. The MCSE which so many people chase found its initial push back in those days. There was huge borrowing and cap-ex on IT. Housewives were studying for the N+.

A lot of costly mistakes were made and burns endured, by shareholders, and workers. dot com crash, telco crash, scandals, general economy and more. But things *changed* as many more people today are involved either directly or indirectly in the IT space in terms of making a living. Millions of them worldwide.

You need to pay your dues in support. The insights you learn there dont come from a book or a class. So what you are doing is *useful* and you need to put time in there but then get out do the other stuff.

Heres a post about this in 2003 on another board..

http://www.examnotes.net/forums/printthread.php?threadid=1010661

In 1999 I worked for a UK wide company with its own IT that employed external consultants paying them a lot of money to give us internet access and migration to NT. We did the grunt support work, the laptops, the printers, the PCs the works..the consultants did us a DMZ, a firewall, a proxy, a RAS server, DNS, Exchange, and a new NT Domain infrastructure. They had the skills. I made a mental note to myself..get out of support and get into design..that stuff. In 1998 in a previous job I was run off my feet supporting everything and one day some guy turned up to configure an IBM router with support over the phone from his highly paid boss. His boss was called Perry. I asked the guy a lot of questions..he must have complained to 'Perry'..'Perry' must have complained to someone at HQ because I got a call saying 'these guys cost us a lot of money!'. In other words, leave it.

Leave it. Leave what? Looking back what they did wasn't difficult but at the time the skills were scarce and we didnt have them inhouse.

I met 'Perry' a week later. Not a one to one meeting you understand. He happened to be in the HQ office when I made my irregular visits to get some training (which I never got because no one felt it was their job to do that and they were all busy). He got pissed that someone in the IT department had dared to touch his management PC. And he confronted a very experienced support professional about it. This did not go down well with the 'guys' but no one took him on and he got his fee..

All of these experiences made me aware of 'the gap'. The gap is the work you need to be doing if you want to get on.

Now. Those that could not offer the skills in hands on IT but wanted a piece of the action and had what you folks in the US call *smarts* went in a different direction. Standards! During 1998 - 2002 companies with old baby boomers got freaked out by having a bunch of death metal guys running their company on technology they know jack about. We didnt help ourselves there and some got a bit snotty with the attitude. Enter the SLA, and the support model..and the breaking of everything into bits and roles..and the dumbing down and the project managers. Suits came in certified on standards and applied them. They got paid. We are where we are today. 1st,2nd,3rd,4th line and a collapse of fewer *really* technical roles to the center. This was mentioned to me by my boss in 1999, thats eleven years ago. I was interested in the Network Engineers work. He knew a lot about 3Com routers and Cisco routers..but my boss said 'he's a good engineer but he cant design a better network'. That was the architects role.

Now lets get current. MPLS. Great technology. Put an MPLS router into a site. What can you do? Well if the MPLS provider is global, you could just put an MPLS router into a site anywhere in the world. What then?

Well instead of the old days where sites grew and more and more leased lines were bought to get to places and you were reliant on a well paid inhouse wizards to design and support a complicated arrangement of routing solutions to get you there (without breaking anything else), you can just go to service provider and say..I want these two sites..one in the US and one the other end of the world to connect to one another. Its a cloud. They provide it. You give requirement and it gets done.

Now MPLS has provided jobs, but not too many on this forum design MPLS cores. Add to which providers give you CE equipment. All it is to local IT is a gateway IP usually. You can read the theory, but many wont *touch* it.

All of this has made for a great piechart, where an executive can confidently pitch a potential saving to the board by moving not only support to another part of the world, but also infrastructure. For the next 8 years at least - cost savings will be a huge incentive to corporate decision making because highly paid executive careers and bonuses are at stake. Expect some changes.

We are defined to some extent by our qualifications, and I still think they *are* useful. They can give us insights. But to stay employable and to have something worthwhile to work towards in 5 years time, you really need to be filling the *gap*. Primarily that means the *work* that you actually do. You need to involved in project work where you are actively involved not just on supporting steady state infrastructure (until the job or even the infrastructure goes), but taking the company to where the C level executive want it to get to. Migration design and future service provision. CIO sets direction (with advice from yourself), and you get them there as a designer.

HTH

mikedisd2

fonestar1978 wrote: »

Damned if I'm going to do this to stay in these monkey-jobs though! What did you have to do to break on through?

Man I hear you, try 7x years in a dead end job. Hating your job can do awful things to your outlook on life that other people won't appreciate. How did I break through? Very slowly.

Realised I was wasting my life away. Decided to change.
Asked my manager for some Server03 exposure; studied the infrastructure of the company's system. Continually asked technical questions.
Started the long track of MCPs.
Studied at night times to grasp all that DC, DNS DHCP stuff.
Checked and applied for jobs everyday. Became addicted to online job hunting.
Talked to and continued to hassle recruiters.
Most importantly, had contacts. I've gotten most of my jobs over the years through people I know.

And when I finally broke away from my dead-end job, I only lasted 3x months on the next one.

It's been 2x years and right now I'm designing / implementing a domain for a new government department. The only way is up. Beats fixing printers.

Turgon

mikedisd2 wrote: »

Man I hear you, try 7x years in a dead end job. Hating your job can do awful things to your outlook on life that other people won't appreciate. How did I break through? Very slowly.

Realised I was wasting my life away. Decided to change.
Asked my manager for some Server03 exposure; studied the infrastructure of the company's system. Continually asked technical questions.
Started the long track of MCPs.
Studied at night times to grasp all that DC, DNS DHCP stuff.
Checked and applied for jobs everyday. Became addicted to online job hunting.
Talked to and continued to hassle recruiters.
Most importantly, had contacts. I've gotten most of my jobs over the years through people I know.

And when I finally broke away from my dead-end job, I only lasted 3x months on the next one.

It's been 2x years and right now I'm designing / implementing a domain for a new government department. The only way is up. Beats fixing printers.

Props to you. You got involved in changing things. They will change anyway but you are *doing* the design work. Good luck to you!

Heero

fonestar1978 wrote: »

Funny you mention that. I love (hate) that HR speak, "soft skills"? I always just assumed that was something that was taken for granted, that we treat people with kindness, greet them with a smile and leave them wanting to use our services again. That was before some people turned that subject into something worthy of a degree in itself somehow!

I've taken a few classes business and industrial psychology (HR stuff), and I can absolutely say that it is a subject worthy of a degree. Just because some HR people seem completely ignorant doesnt mean that everyone is. There are plenty of retarded IT people who make people like us look bad. Staffing is one of the most important functions of a business. Having good employees is really important, and having a good HR department is really important for having good employees.

citinerd

I am not mad at you for your opinion but......

I just started 3 months ago as a Desktop Support Tech. Which means if an Ethernet cable needs plugged in I get tapped.

I worked in banking for 11 years and went to school on the companies dime. Got an AAS in computer networking and a few certs (CCNA A+ and NET+ at the time) and in 1 1/2 years I only got 1 interview. I would apply for any IT job I would find (Help Desk, Desktop support, entry level network etc...) After that 1 1/2 year I got my 2nd and 3rd interviews back to back and got my current job. In this economy there are plenty of people with experience and no job so why call the newbie. These jobs are there so peeps like me can get some hands on time. In the short 3 months the network manager already knows my name and my desires to work for her. I have landed a project of installing a backup server because they are short handed and are not filling any vacancies yet. But....

I still crawl under desks and do my job because that is what pays me $40k+ a year.

AlanJames

desktop / user support is just a stepping stone in my opinion.

I did it for a couple years, there were some great aspects about it, and some rubbish ones.. moves adds changes etc boo to moving pcs from location A - B then plugging them back in.

But all you need to do is learn, and seek and you find

I'm now doing doing network / voip eningeer roles, and find it easy to get work

But keep learning and stay motivated, and there is only one direction to go.

Faygo

citinerd wrote: »

I am not mad at you for your opinion but......

I just started 3 months ago as a Desktop Support Tech. Which means if an Ethernet cable needs plugged in I get tapped.



I still crawl under desks and do my job because that is what pays me $40k+ a year.

Only part that bothers me,

It makes it sound like you think having to get your hands dirty is beneath you.

It really does not matter if you had a career before you started doing IT. I know C level guys that end up crawling under a desk once in a while, they don’t do it every day, But it is not beneath them.

Working out where people can see you is one of the best ways to get ahead in this kind of job. IT is a large part customer services, If the people you assist like you then other people will hear about it, and you will do better in your new career.

About the only guys I know that never get under a desk once in a while are not around long. You need to sell yourself not just to your manager but to everyone’s managers.
Frankly the it is the soft skills that will get you where you want to go. The hard skills just get you in the first door.

citinerd

Faygo wrote: »

Only part that bothers me,

It makes it sound like you think having to get your hands dirty is beneath you.

It really does not matter if you had a career before you started doing IT. I know C level guys that end up crawling under a desk once in a while, they don’t do it every day, But it is not beneath them.

Working out where people can see you is one of the best ways to get ahead in this kind of job. IT is a large part customer services, If the people you assist like you then other people will hear about it, and you will do better in your new career.

About the only guys I know that never get under a desk once in a while are not around long. You need to sell yourself not just to your manager but to everyone’s managers.
Frankly the it is the soft skills that will get you where you want to go. The hard skills just get you in the first door.

Not beneath me at all.... I put it there because it sounded like it was beneath the OP fonestar1978. I don't want to do desktop support forever but I love what I do. In our network dept. we would climb up in the dirty ceilings and run cable. Again that is not beneath me in fact I like to do it.

I think you are reading it wrong. I was defending people like me who will do the dirty work.

Faygo

Sorry about that


Didn't read who was who i guess:)

RobertKaucher

fonestar1978 wrote: »

There needs to be some critical distinctions made here. It would seem even people on this forum have fallen victim to this tech/technician paradox. One person replied to my post saying that he worked with a fellow who got fired because even though he was an MCSE he had a bad attitude and put the wrong screw through a motherboard. Excuse me? Why the hell is an MCSE re-assembling a board in the first freaking place??

You are not considering the context of what I said...

RobertKaucher wrote: »

Yes, but sometimes those skills are not technical. One such person I knew had the knowledge but was such a f-up he could not progress out of the helpdesk. He was a good guy, and he knew his stuff but he just made bad choices and put himself in bad situations. Once he was rebuilding a laptop and did not keep track of his skrews and put one that was too long right through a mobo. Lack of attention to detail, lack of respect for authority, and a general chip on his shoulder got him nowhere fast. No MCSE can compensate for those shortfalls.

Simply having a cert does not mean that you have the required experience nor does it mean that you have any of the other requirements to perform a job well. He was repairing a laptop because he could not be trusted to do anything more technical and he even "screwed" that up - pardon the pun.

The person in question was in no way someone that I would allow to design GPOs or a PKI or any other critical component on a network I was responsible for. His failings were his own but he put it down to his manager not liking him, or other people not understanding him, or anything other than his own failings.

It is my experience that the people who are not getting what they want out of their lives or careers are usually not willing to be introspective and consider what they are doing wrong and usually it is this that is holding them back far more than any other external factor.

brad-

fonestar1978 wrote: »

One person replied to my post saying that he worked with a fellow who got fired because even though he was an MCSE he had a bad attitude and put the wrong screw through a motherboard. Excuse me? Why the hell is an MCSE re-assembling a board in the first freaking place?? That is what an electronics technician does (well, a very minor part of it) not a system administrator or a certified network engineer!!! How the hell does learning about setting up Server 2003 help you put screws in the right place? How does studying Dijkstra's algorithm help you put toner in an HP printer? Let's get this straight, people ***** about how brain-**** are devaluing your certifications? I say quit devaluing your intelligence by calling these monkey-jobs technical positions!

In the real world, many people seek and need those monkey jobs as a means to get by - even do them for a while career. Kudos to that MCSE with the selflesness to take a job way under his expertise and expected pay rate...he was probably trying to do the right thing for his family. I tell myself all the time, if something happens and I lose my job, I'm not too good to work anywhere to take care of my family.

I think your view of things is a little one sided.

rsutton

RobertKaucher wrote: »

It is my experience that the people who are not getting what they want out of their lives or careers are usually not willing to be introspective and consider what they are doing wrong and usually it is this that is holding them back far more than any other external factor.

+1 and well said. Some of the worst techs I know think they are great techs & blame their lack of progression on all kinds of external factors.

Turgon

RobertKaucher wrote: »

You are not considering the context of what I said...



Simply having a cert does not mean that you have the required experience nor does it mean that you have any of the other requirements to perform a job well. He was repairing a laptop because he could not be trusted to do anything more technical and he even "screwed" that up - pardon the pun.

The person in question was in no way someone that I would allow to design GPOs or a PKI or any other critical component on a network I was responsible for. His failings were his own but he put it down to his manager not liking him, or other people not understanding him, or anything other than his own failings.

It is my experience that the people who are not getting what they want out of their lives or careers are usually not willing to be introspective and consider what they are doing wrong and usually it is this that is holding them back far more than any other external factor.

While I agree with a lot of what you said I would be cautious of the term *usually*. Many people fall short on what they want and use plenty of introspection to improve things but often can only do so with what they have to work with and in some cases against. I think many people who fall short do lack the the self assessment you mention, and its certainly vital to do that. But many others fall short and do everything they can to improve matters.

Moving where the work is sometimes isn't an option for people with dependents hanging off them in the locality they live is one example. Many people cannot join the migrant employee population easily because they have to think of more than their career prospects.

So long as you work hard on what you *can* control or influence in some way you have at least given yourself the best chance of success in life.

Turgon

rsutton wrote: »

+1 and well said. Some of the worst techs I know think they are great techs & blame their lack of progression on all kinds of external factors.

I think that happens in all spheres of life quite frankly. One of the goals of management is to place people in the right roles, to get the best out of what you have to work with.

Sometimes someone isn't too hot at what they presently do, but they are stuck in the job and may fly in another one. And that could be another aspect of IT. All that said, there is something in the Gold, Silver and Bronze of capabilities and there's nothing wrong with that at all. In fact it's what makes the world go around. You need some Solid Gold, but without Stirling Silver and effective Bronze and an ability for *all* to respect one anothers roles nothing impressive actually gets accomplished.

As someone once said its better to be a good soldier than a bad Captain. Some people quite frankly are not so hot at lots of things. What are you going to do? They need a job and have families. I think sometimes people feel obliged to pass themselves off as something they are not to simply get along nevermind get ahead and out of fear of being poleaxed.

Im not a Nixon fan but he quoted that 'every job is important'. Theres a lot in that as well and it can lead not only to better prospects elsewhere for the individual but in satisfaction in doing a job well if they dont advance very far. You need good infantry and theres nothing wrong in striving to be that. One of the problems perhaps is people dismiss jobs as menial and push ahead far too soon than is good for them. I served my time in the trenches and I can tell you I still pull on things I learned back then and could only learn then.

rsutton

I think this is more of an issue of how you present yourself. The OP could have asked how to progress in his career and left it at that. A condescending Help Desk tech asking how to progress in their career will be given advice on how not to be condescending.

brad-

rsutton wrote: »

I think this is more of an issue of how you present yourself. The OP could have asked how to progress in his career and left it at that. A condescending Help Desk tech asking how to progress in their career will be given advice on how not to be condescending.

And I never would have guessed that coming from a Canadian

RobertKaucher

Turgon wrote: »

While I agree with a lot of what you said I would be cautious of the term *usually*. Many people fall short on what they want and use plenty of introspection to improve things but often can only do so with what they have to work with and in some cases against. I think many people who fall short do lack the the self assessment you mention, and its certainly vital to do that. But many others fall short and do everything they can to improve matters.

I can agree with this, but this has been my experience with the people I have met. In my time as a foreign language instructor I met many people who professed wanting to really improve and would try this or that and buy this book or whatever. But when they asked me what I thought they needed to do to improve I had to tell them, "Dedicate more time and form better study habits." *SOME* people lacked the natural ability to learn a foreign language well, but not most of my students. I would say of the people who had a hard time only 10% could not progress due to inate lack of ability. The others did not progress because of their own choices. And that's fine. "Progress, not perfection."

But a significant number of the people who did poorly blamed the method, blamed the course material, blamed the teacher, etc. But perhaps they just stand out more in my memory because they annoyed me so?

eMeS

brad- wrote: »

And I never would have guessed that coming from a Canadian

LOL...this is one of the funniest things I've read here in a long time....

MS