Is a degree absolutely necessary?

bighusker

Unless you're attending a fifth-rate school, a Computer Science degree is hardly a "joke." I don't know where this misconception comes from, but many people seem to have gotten the idea that "Computer Science" and "Information Systems/Computer Information" are similar degrees. That's simply WRONG.

At most schools, MIS/IS/CIS is a business degree with a few watered-down computer classes thrown in the mix. It's a cakewalk compared to Computer Science. CS generally requires an assload of Calculus (up to Differential Equations at some schools), a bunch of high-level programming classes (C++, C, Java, Perl, PHP, etc.), "digital design" and "computer architecture" classes that require understanding of bitwise computing all the way down to the logic gate level, programming in assembly, and a thorough understanding of how Operating Systems and Programming Languages are implemented in computers (and no, I'm not referring to something that is comparable to studying for the A+ hardware test).

Is a newly graduated "Computer Science" major more qualifed to manage a corporate network than an MCSE with 5 years experience? Of course not (generally speaking)! Why the hell would he be? A person who graduated with a CS degree was trained to be a PROGRAMMER, not a "network engineer." You generally wouldn't expect a newly-certified MCSE to program a new 3D-gaming engine, write the back-end socket code for a peer-to-peer file transfer client or figure out the hashing function for an array of usernames in a corporate database. So, why would you expect the inverse? I think people see the word "Computer" in "Computer Science" and don't really understand what the degree is. Maybe they should have just called it "Algorithm Science" or something.

After I complete my CS degree, will I be the best programmer in the universe and never have to learn anything new? Hell no! But that's not the point of a CS Degree. It's to show prospective employers that I'm deidcated enough to set challenging long-term goals and responsible enough to meet them. It also shows that I understand programming concepts and have the ability to adapt to the specific needs of that company. 90% of programming is learning the concepts. Once you understand what trees, graphs, linked lists, hash tables and other data structures are, programming them in other languages is simply a matter of syntax. Once you get OOP down pat, you should have no problems learning C++ or Java.

If there are "Computer Science" majors out there applying for "corporate network"/"Corporate IT Department" jobs and they have no experience/certifications/knowledge of that field than it's their fault for not knowing what they're qualified for. That shouldn't reflect poorly on the CS Degree I will have in a year and a half or so. I've done much more than "doodling on a napkin." The only reason I'm working in an IT department right now is because I have enough experiecne and knowledge to provide basic "helpdesk"-type support, and $12/hour is a pretty good wage for college students around here. I have no intention of doing this for the rest of my life. My strengths lie as a programmer...and generally speaking, it's hard to get very far in programming without some kind of formal training. There are a few that have been geeky enough to pull it off, but they're super-geniuses in my mind and have all my admiration.

BluesKid

Bighusker you hit it right on the head. This site is primarily dedicated to network/systems administration/engineering. You clearly describe what a CS degree is all about. Does it seem reasonable for employers for positions of these types to require a CS degree? Is it just me or are they VERY different beasts? I seriously doubt differential equations are going to help me setup the company's AD forest

bighusker

BluesKid wrote:

Bighusker you hit it right on the head. This site is primarily dedicated to network/systems administration/engineering. You clearly describe what a CS degree is all about. Does it seem reasonable for employers for positions of these types to require a CS degree? Is it just me or are they VERY different beasts? I seriously doubt differential equations are going to help me setup the company's AD forest

Unfortunately, I don't think many employers understand what "Computer Science" is either. I love your rhetorical question about the neccessity of knowing differential equations to set up your company's AD Forest because it reminds me of the head MCSE guy at my workplace. He's a **** super-genius at all that stuff, and I don't know my head from my ass with that enterprise-level information system stuff. He's been very generous at showing me the ropes so far though, and I know I can learn a lot from him.

But at one point, I told him that I'm into Computer Science with a focus in Information Assurance/cryptography, and he froze and told me how much he hates math. We're *very* differently minded, but I'd like to think that I will be as intelligent in my field as he is one day, even though I will probably still have no clue about setting up Active Directory Forests.

filkenjitsu

"CCIE is far harder to obtain then a 4 year degree. I do not see the point in taking biology, foriegn language, arts classes and all the other crap that is needed."

BS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

University of TN Electrical Engineering requirements....:

Electrical Engineering Curriculum - Fall 2004

---

Freshman

EF 101 Engineering Fundamentals 6
EF 102 Engineering Fundamentals 6
Chemistry 120 General Chemistry 4
Chemistry 130 General Chemistry 4
English 101 Composition I 3
English 102 Composition II 3
Math 141 Calculus I 4
Math 142 Calculus II 4
TOTAL HOURS 17 TOTAL HOURS 17


Sophomore

Math 231 Differential Equations 3
Math 241 Calculus III 4
Physics 231 Elec & Magnetism 3
Physics 232 Waves, Optics, Rela. 4
ECE 206 Programming 4
Math 200 Matrix Computations 1
ECE 255 Logic 4
ECE 300 Circuits 5
General Education Elective** 3
General Education Elective** 3
TOTAL HOURS 17 TOTAL HOURS 17


Junior
First Semester Second Semester
ECE 315 Signals & Systems I 3
ECE 316 Signals & Systems II 3
ECE 335 Electronics I 4
ECE 336 Electronics II 3
ECE 325 Elec Energy Sys Comp 4
ECE 342 Communications 3
ECE 341 Elec Mag Fields 3
ECE 355 Computer Sys Fund 3
ECE 395 Junior Seminar 1 2
Tech Elec Engr Technical Elective 3
General Education Elective ** 3
General Education Elective ** 3
TOTAL HOURS 18 TOTAL HOURS 18


Senior
First Semester Second Semester
ECE 4XX EE Senior Elective 3
EE 4XX EE Senior Elective 4
ECE 4XX EE Senior Elective 3
ECE 400 Senior Design 5
ECE 4XX EE Senior Elective 3 2
Tech Elec Engr Technical Elective 3
ME 331 Thermodynamics 3
General Education Elective** 3
General Education Elective** 3
TOTAL HOURS 15 TOTAL HOURS 15

Engineering Technical Electives
MSE 201 Intro to Mat Sci & Engr
MSE 410 Theory and Proc of Electronic Materials
ME 231 Dynamics
ME 321 Mechanics of Materials I
ME 344 Heat Transfer
NE 342 Thermal Science
IE 405 Engineering Economic Analysis


Total = 134 Semester Hours
**Total General Education Electives = 18 Semester Hours



1At Least 1 Course from Professional and Ethical Responsibility Center
1At Least 1 Course from Effective Communcations Cluster

filkenjitsu

If you think that the CCIE is harder than that degree you are nuts! end of story!

Took my friend 5 years full time, with no job, to complete that degree. he had to BUILD A ROBOT THAT DID FUNCTIONS WITH A WIRELESS REMOTE as his senior thesis!!!! Yea! the CCIE is harder!! ! LOL AT YOU!

He built this dog sized robot from the ground up!!! Circuits, bus lines, etc.... Yea, the CCIE is harder!!! LOL

ok, it took him 5 years, no job, living with parents, HE GRADUATED WITH A B+, could not even pull off an A because my BRILLIAN friend by all accounts and tests said the program was SOOO HARD.

Now he Works as the lead wireless Security Administrator at the ORNL nuclier power plant in Oak Ridge.... man, he was stupid to get that degree.... oh yea, he has no certs. But he understands the fundamentals of how EVERYTHING electronic works, know everything about RF, wavelengthes, Radio Engineering, etc. He did not know any of this before this program. The CCIE teaches you how to configure networks with routers.... YEa, that is worth more and Harder to learn..... sure.....

filkenjitsu

Computer Engineering Curriculum - 2005-2006

---

Freshman

EF 151 or 1574 Engineering Fundamentals 4
EF 152 or 1584 Engineering Fundamentals 4
Chemistry 120 General Chemistry 4
ECE 206 Programming 4
English 101 Composition I 3
English 102 Composition II 3
Math 141 Calculus I 4
Math 142 Calculus II 4
EF 105 Engineering Fundamentals 1
TOTAL HOURS 16 TOTAL HOURS 15


Sophomore
First Semester Second Semester
Math 231 Differential Equations 3
Math 241 Calculus III 4
Physics 231 Elec & Magnetism 3
ECE-313 Eng. Appl. of Prob. 3
ECE 255 Logic 4
ECE 300 Circuits 5
CS -140 Data Structures 4
Physics 232 Waves, Optics, Rela. 4
Math 251 Matrix Algebra 3
TOTAL HOURS 17 TOTAL HOURS 16


Junior
First Semester Second Semester
ECE 315 Signals & Systems I 3
ECE 316 Signals & Systems II 3
ECE 335 Electronics I 4
CS 360 Systems Programming 3
CS 302 Fundamental Algorithms 3
ECE 355 Comp. Sys & Fund. 3
Math 300 Abstract Math 3
ECE 342 Communications 3
ECE 395 Junior Seminar 1 1
Cultures and Civilizations Elective* 3
1Cultures and Civilizations Elective* 3 1
Philosophy 241*, 243*, 244* 3
TOTAL HOURS 17 TOTAL HOURS 18


Senior
First Semester Second Semester
ECE 451 Comp Systems Arch. 3
ECE 400 Senior Design 5
ECE CpE Senior Elective2 3
ECE 453 or ECE-455 3
1Arts and Humanities Electives 3
ECE CpE Senior Elective2 3
EF 402 Engineering Fundamentals 1 1
Social Sciences Electives* 3
Soial Sciences Electives* 3
TOTAL HOURS 13 TOTAL HOURS 14


Total = 126 Semester Hours

filkenjitsu

http://www.cs.utk.edu/da/list.php

filkenjitsu

Computer Science

Freshman Year (32 hours)
Fall Spring
CS 102 Intro to Computer Science (4)
CS 140 Data Structures (4)
Math 141 Calculus I (4)
Math 142 Calculus II (4)
English 101 English Composition I (3)
English 102 English Composition II (3)
Foreign Language 2xx (3)
Foreign Language 2xx (3)
How to Study (1) (recommended)
Social Science (3)

Sophomore Year (34 hours)
Fall Spring
CS 160 Computer Organization (4)
CS 302 Fundamental Algorithms (3)
Math 251 Matrix Algebra (3)
CS 311 Discrete Structures(3)
Math 300 Intro to Abstract Math (3)
Math 241 Multivariable Calculus (4)
Physics 135 (4) or
Chemistry 1xx (4) or
Biology 1xx(4) Physics 136 (4) or
Chemistry 1xx (4) or
Biology 1xx (4)
Humanities (3)
Communicating Orally (3)

Junior Year (31 hours)
Fall Spring
CS 360 Systems Programming (3)
CS 365 Programming Languages & Systems (3)
CS 340 Foundations of Software Engineering (3) or CS 370 Intro to Scientific Computing (3)
CS 380 Theory of Computation (3)
CS 300 Scripts & Utilities (1) (recommended) CS UD Elective (3)
Math 231 Differential Equations (3)
Math 323 Probability & Statistics (3)
Non-US History (3)
Non-US History (3)
Humanities (3)
Upper Level Distribution (3)
Social Science (3)

Senior Year (27 hours)
Fall Spring
CS UD Elective (6)
CS UD Elective (6)
English 355 or 360 (3)
Upper Level Distribution (3)
UD Math for recommended minor (3) or General Elective (3)
General Elective (3)
General Elective (3)

Total Credit Hours: 124

filkenjitsu

what do people think about college degrees now? still a joke?

BluesKid

You just answered your own question. Look at all the needless BS you have to endure. No one said it isnt a lot of work. The only question was its relevance in the network/system administration/engineering fields.

reloaded

Hmm, I've read a lot of this discussion...excellent points by all parties. However, I think a good question is -

"What can I do to make myself more marketable?"

Seems degrees, certs, and experience provide the best combination to market yourself to employers. That's personally what I'm striving for. My situation is that I'm striving for a second degree as I get experience in my shop and go for certs in-between.

filkenjitsu

I guess I do not think what those people have to take in college for those degrees as BS. I see someone taking those classes and learning that material well becoming a brilliant person that can do problem solving above and beyond someone without these degrees.

I wish I had gone and gotten one of those degrees while I was younger. I have seen how well those degrees prepare a person for constant learning and growth throughout life.

I am going for an Associates in Computer Networking at ITT. I then plan on getting a bachelors in Networking Security and Forensics at another local college in the area. I wish I could make it through an Engineering degree, but I dont think I could if I had to work at the same time. I am married and we both go to school and work full time, so an Engineering degree is not in my future.

drewm320

You just answered your own question. Look at all the needless BS you have to endure. No one said it isnt a lot of work. The only question was its relevance in the network/system administration/engineering fields.

Just because something is not relevant to what you do today doesn't mean it has no value. I have a Computer Engineering degree that had a fairly similar curriculum to the ones posted above.

I don't do much programming in my current job but the fact that I've had a year's worth of exposure to it in school means that if I ever needed to do a bunch of scripting or programming, I already know what a method declaration is or what a linked list is.

I don't work directly with databases but the fact that I've taken some database classes means that I still know something about 3rd normal forms.

I don't use calculus at all but I have to think that the experience of taking 3 1/2 years of math has in some way improved my problem solving skills.

I think the variety of classes you take while obtaining a degree helps keep you from being pigeon-holed into a single job role.


On a side note, I'd be interested to see how many of the people who think degrees are worthless actually have one.

/usr

Just because something is not relevant to what you do today doesn't mean it has no value.

Precisely.

While the classes one takes for a degree may be unrelated to the job he or she wishes to obtain at some point, hardly means those classes are worthless BS.
Quite the opposite, I think they allow an individual to become well rounded and allow the opportunity to obtain knowledge in many areas, not solely IT.

For example, English classes, communications classes, and philosophy classes, all directly relate to functions which any person will perform at some point in their jobs, and more importantly, in everyday life.

reloaded

For example, English classes, communications classes, and philosophy classes, all directly relate to functions which any person will perform at some point in their jobs, and more importantly, in everyday life.

This is very true. We work with people and materials that are not related to our degree everyday in more ways than we'd like to know or understand. Therefore, general education classes can help us to understand everything else that's not related to our specialty.

filkenjitsu

I am sorry, I confused at what this means = "aas es n net, iad, and cit"

What do you mean by this statement "lets be honest there is no differnce between havng an aas and another ba degree than just having a ba degree in a field like networking."

JDMurray

moagm316 wrote:

i really dont see the difference between the two. it would be the same as taking a double major.

What you think a degree is equivalent to makes no difference. You must abide by the specific criteria that a business wants you to have. Every business has certain standards that you must meet regardless whether you understand them or not.

I have been in the situation several times where I am the best software engineer applying for a job, but I won't get past the HR department to talk with a hiring manager because I do not have an "engineering" degree. Having an engineering degree wasn't necessary for the job, but having the proper work experience was. Still, there is nothing that I can do about the inefficient hiring practices that many companies have.

filkenjitsu

ahh well, we gotta dress up those resume's!

chris2wire

I dont have anything to useful to add....

But let me throw this in...

A degree is the key to a constantly growing salary. The reason is that certs and experience can get you a great IT job, and you can move up in a company and make more and more money, but without a degree you're bound to hit a ceiling in salary because hands on/IT jobs only go so far.

With a degree, however, you can go from being one of twenty network administrators in a large corporate building to becoming manager. Or better yet, start out at manager. You demonstrate skills in the field with a degree as well as IMPORTANT GENERAL KNOWLEDGE, such as writing skills, english, math, critical thinking and most important management.

The degree is what gives you an unlimited ceiling of salary in your career, and opens up the door for a masters or Phd which would shoot you up the ladder even faster.

Certs and experience can only get you so far, such as 60K a year ( which id be happy with...) but a degree is what it makes it so YOU decide how far you go.

Once you have a degree all it takes is motivation and you can go anywhere.

JDMurray

Expanding on what chris2wire said, I want to emphasize the need for excellent writing and communications skills. Communicating with people via writing (documents and email) and speaking (public and private) is an essential part of any high-tech job. You won't get very high-up on the corporate ladder, or get very far in a job interview, if you can't communicate better than the people around you.

I believe that the number one reason that off-shoring (i.e., overseas out-sourcing) fails is because of the inability of the off-shore workers to effectively communicate with their customers. Differences in languages, cultures, and levels of education are all a factor, but whatever the reasons, it still all comes down to poor communications skills as being the primary money-waster and eventual deal-killer.

Improve your communications skills and you are helping to keep those high-tech jobs in your own country!

skully93

To update myself:

We moved back to CO to avoid depression that was TX.

I got an offer from a job that I considered myself underqualified for. They even hired me knowing that I needed to get my driver's license back.

All I have is the A+ and some experience.

They hired me over a lot of people with degrees, mostly because even some higher certified people couldn't make a peer-to-peer network with 98 .

I get paid well and the job is great. If I stick it out for a few years I'll have a wealth of experience. The title is desktop support, but it's more of a jr. admin gig that will grow.

Keep up the hard work!

chris2wire

skully, nice success story. Congrats to you, definately.

Im just saying a degree adds volumes to your resume. Instead of saying youre great with computers and networking like certs say, a degree says youre great with communicating, leading, thinking critically and most importantly handling responsibility.

Employers know there is nothing in the world that demands responsibility like obtaining a degree does. Even the most motivated minds can get burned out trying to achieve a degree.

Employers know this and view people with degrees as motivated, consistent, and good at handling responsiblities.

Is it necessary? For someone like me who wants to own an Aston Martin before I die and move to Laguna beach, yup it matters.

But for someone who is simply happy with living successful, driving a bmw, comfortably raising a family with no financial worries, then yes the right certs could get you there.

Different motivations lead to different paths, choose the one that gets you to your goal.

elcaminoguy

Ok, guys I played both sides of the fence on this one.

HEre's the skinny. When I got out of High School I figured I was
going to do the right thing a go straight to college. Enrolled at my
local State university in the CIS program and spent exactly 1 week
there before running the other direction as fast as I could. Why? Because it was going to be 3 years before I even got to see
a keyboard at school and the barefoot Anthropology instructor scared the hell out of me. I felt it was a glorious waste of time and I still had to make a living and support a new wife back then.

So I decided to pay my bills instead of broadening my horizons.

After a few years of working "unskilled" jobs I finally decided that
I needed to expand my options so I went back to school. I didn't go
back to college though I went to a technical school and
got an AAS in Electronics engineering. Learned board level diagnositics
and how to run an O scope and play with a logic probe and all that fun Electronic theory. I still have nightmares over Power formulas and voltage drop through resistors and don't get me started on weir bridges..

Anyway took a little over a year and during that time I had no life at all. The program was set up in such a way that they didn't even want you to work due to the class load you had to handle. I was so busy I hardly even had time to watch any TV. BUt at the end I graduated with honors and had a new job waiting for me at IBM right out of school. Wasn't a great job and the pay stunk with no benefits but it was still IBM. This was around the time they laid off 150000 people.

Anway without the AAS degree IBM wouldn't even talk to me. And at the time having that badge that said I was IBM was like a dream come true to me..Unfortunately the dream turned into a nightmare and I was on the hunt for work again.

So a few years go by and I decided that I didn't want to spend my life as a "tech" So I went back to school again but this time it was for a business degree in Business INformation systems. Also picked up some MS certs and had a few farily decent but still mediocre paying jobs. It was an IS degree but it was heavy on Business management aspects of it. That fit perfectly with what I wanted to do. Again during this time I had no life but it was worth it..

Anyway, I went back to school both tiimes so I could improve on the skllls I already had and hopefully give myself a leg up. Only thing I regret is the student loan bills I pay every month..ouch!....

Now I'm after the CCNA and after that I'll take a few other exams that interest me but I am not getting on the certification hamster wheel. I did that once during NT4 MCSE and I won't do it again.

So, what do I think is more valuable: The cert or the degree?
I think it depends on what you want to do. For me I am looking to
manage technical projects. That's why I got the BS degree in BIS. But I also want to be able to intelligently communicate and participate in the process instead of giving sermons. There is nothing worse than an IT manager who has no clue about the technology.

So that's it, I value both for different reasons. They really can't be compared apples to apples in my book.

filkenjitsu

ttt

sir_creamy_

filkenjitsu wrote:

ttt

*WHY* does this thread need to be opened up again?! This debate goes on for ever and never amounts to anything. Degree/certs/experience. It's all good, just do what you can with what you have!

Aquabat [banned]

regarding the first post from 4 years ago:

well, of course your IT manager told you that. because he's a manager. Managers need 3 things to succed in the world of IT

1. a degree
2. no certs
3. to be an idiot and have a bad attitude

dude, don't listen to ur manager, seriously.

experience>certs>degree imo

nel

regarding the first post from 4 years ago:

well, of course your IT manager told you that. because he's a manager. Managers need 3 things to succed in the world of IT

1. a degree
2. no certs
3. to be an idiot and have a bad attitude

dude, don't listen to ur manager, seriously.

Funny enough i have just been told i SHOULD get a better degree by the gaffer. even though it will prob not benefit me workwise!