Certs chasing

With the possibility of getting neg'd I wanted to hear everyone's opinion on this.

I am 22 years old (turning 23 this year) and I have come to the conclusion that I do not plan to chase certs forever. I only want to earn a few, important, career impacting certs and maintain those rather than go after every single cert that comes out of the wood works. I think it is crazy. Now don't get me wrong, I have nothing against learning, I am just speaking about certifying. It is expensive and time consuming and unless I can get an employer to pay for them, it seems to be a very real expense. I know I don't have that many and I don't plan to stop with my current amount, I was just wondering if others have had this thought .

Edit: I am not trying to downplay the importance of certification in our careers or the value that some certs have or even the enjoyment some get out of the certification process.

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Comments

earweed

Very valid point there. One of the things you'll want to do is enjoy the life you're making by doing the work you're doing now.

veritas_libertas

knwminus wrote: »

I only want to earn a few, important, career impacting certs and maintain those rather than go after every single cert that comes out of the wood works. I think it is crazy. Now don't get me wrong, I have nothing against learning, I am just speaking about certifying. It is expensive and time consuming and unless I can get an employer to pay for them, it seems to be a very real expense. I know I don't have that many and I don't plan to stop with my current amount, I was just wondering if others have had this thought .

I am completely with you on this. I plan on taking the CCNA, and other Microsoft certifications, but down the road I will go after certain certifications, and just keep them current. From time to time I will probably grab new certifications that interest me as challenges to learn a new technology but I don't want to be constantly chasing after the next cert.

jamesleecoleman

I kinda do. I have a limit to the certs that I want to get. I'm not going to go out and try to collect as many as I can just so I can say that I have these many certs. I'll get the certifications that I feel that will help me out the most. I have other things I want to do too but I won't stop learning because its just soo fun

You're right about the expensive part but I feel that puttin in the money for certs will help me get something better later on. I don't feel the same way about school though.

mikej412

You seem to have it figured out correctly -- set your goal, achieve it, and maintain it.

The "maintain it" part can still involve reading, learning, and staying current and relevant in your field -- but doesn't have to include an endless school/certification hamster wheel. At some point before retirement it's okay to enjoy the fruits of your labor and buy a boat and a vacation home and a fast car and a new younger trophy wife.

If you decide to become a CCIE (and are good at it and employed and happy), there's no reason to chase the Microsoft Architect -- and even the Cisco Architect Certifications unless it's your new burning passion (or you're having a mid-life crisis and can't afford or don't want the Ferrari).

Just remember that once you decide what you want to be when you grow up, you'll still probably change careers a couple of times before you retire.

dynamik

I think most people feel that way. Personally, this is the last year I plan on going all-out. 2011 is going to be focused exclusively on the GSE. I'll probably try to do at least one fun course per year after that, such as something from SANS, OffSec, etc.

My renewal schedule after that will be:

CPEs (or equivalent) for (ISC)2, ISACA, and EC-Council
One Cisco exam every three years for Cisco
GSE written every four years for SANS

That's going to be easily manageable. Once you get over the hump, the maintenance isn't too bad.

My VCP is already out-dated, and I have no interest in renewing it. I can stay up to speed on it on my own for what I need to do. I doubt I'll be renewing my CWNA/SP. Those are a lot more on the infrastructure side, and I never deal with any of that.

I'm undecided on Microsoft. If I keep anything, it'll be the core MCSE/MCITP:EA designation. I'm definitely not going to bother with all the miscellaneous ones that I have now (Hyper-V, ISA, Exchange, etc.).

SANS also has wireless and Windows certifications, and I might just fold those into that group over time... I'm definitely losing a lot of interesting the vendor-centric certifications.

tearofs

It all depends on how technology evolve. I am NOT chasing certs, but I am indeed chasing technology. I think you need this kind of attitude to do good in IT. And the most important thing of all, I REALLY enjoy doing this.

Bl8ckr0uter

Well my goals is to be a CCIE Security/Service Provider//CCDE, LPIC-3 and possibly some Juniper/Checkpoint certs and some SANS certs as the time comes. I really am interested in the owner/president/CEO type of role rather than the techie roles to be honest. But I do want to work my way up to that roles. I'd also like to get into Finance (which is why my BS will be in Finance and Business admin, I just made the change over in my plans from Computer Science). I have always wanted money and knowing how money really works is exciting to me.

tearofs

knwminus wrote: »

I'd also like to get into Finance (which is why my BS will be in Finance and Business admin, I just made the change over in my plans from Computer Science). I have always wanted money and knowing how money really works is exciting to me.

I have a BA in Finance. But let me tell you what, that thing means nothing more than a paper to me. Couple weeks ago, a recruiter from Liberty Mutual contacted me, I asked him on the phone:"Are you guys hiring any IT staff?"

Bl8ckr0uter

tearofs wrote: »

I have a BA in Finance. But let me tell you what, that thing means nothing more than a paper to me. Couple weeks ago, a recruiter from Liberty Mutual contacted me, I asked him on the phone:"Are you guys hiring any IT staff?"

PM Sent

ColbyG

After the IE, I'm done for awhile. Maybe I'll end up trying for another IE (SP probably), but it will be awhile.

I get certs so I can make more money. I try to stick to the certs that will actually get me more money. Sometimes I do easy ones just for the hell of it (CCNA V, JNCIA), but for the most part all the certs I get should make me more valuable to an employer and put more money in my pocket.

I have no desire to do anything with servers, so I don't touch any certs like that. Sadly I have to get the ITIL soon for work, which will be the only cert I've done that I have zero interest in.

Bl8ckr0uter

ColbyG wrote: »

I get certs so I can make more money

This is such a true statement and it is exactly how I feel.

Turgon

knwminus wrote: »

With the possibility of getting neg'd I wanted to hear everyone's opinion on this.

I am 22 years old (turning 23 this year) and I have come to the conclusion that I do not plan to chase certs forever. I only want to earn a few, important, career impacting certs and maintain those rather than go after every single cert that comes out of the wood works. I think it is crazy. Now don't get me wrong, I have nothing against learning, I am just speaking about certifying. It is expensive and time consuming and unless I can get an employer to pay for them, it seems to be a very real expense. I know I don't have that many and I don't plan to stop with my current amount, I was just wondering if others have had this thought .

Edit: I am not trying to downplay the importance of certification in our careers or the value that some certs have or even the enjoyment some get out of the certification process.

Certs do not deliver careers. Careers have to be earned in the workplace. But certification surely has a role to play in that. The rat racing of certs isn't over but the benefits of doing it most certainly are. My take is that certification isn't of itself a great enabler, but the process you go through to obtain them may be. Many companies will gleefully hand off a project to someone who is certified these days, but heaven help them if they can't deliver!

In 1999 yada yada yada cert was a deal breaker. In practice many of these people had only been working with the technology in the field for a year or two at best. They were certified laymen. Today with a string of certs you are often seen as overqualified and under experienced

In short then, expend your time and energy seeking out really *good* project experience at work, something that is real and goes beyond the hubris of a slew of certs. You are much better off busting your balls on an impressive 6 month migration project than spending energies on a certification that saps your juice to deliver in the field. There are lots of qualified people out there. Employers want to know what you have done in the field. My CCNP expired 7 years ago. At the same time do pick out the certifcations that add strategic value to where you want to go.

stuh84

I'm not chasing certs for the case of only getting a better CV/making more money, I just have a genuine interest in my field. I actually get excited when I learn something new in it, and I can't think of a better way of merging the excitement, with proving what I know to people so I can get paid more, and therefore pay to get hold of more of this stuff, than on certification tracks.

The time that I will stop, is when I don't feel like my brain can take anymore learning. Maybe once I get to the point of the CCIE and hopefully passing it, I'll reach that, but I hope not, there's too much other stuff I want to know.

I'm getting good experience in my job along the way, so experience, plus certs, plus a degree (not entirely relevant, but its there), I think I'm going down the right track

Bl8ckr0uter

stuh84 wrote: »

I'm not chasing certs for the case of only getting a better CV/making more money, I just have a genuine interest in my field.

I am just curious about two things. The first is, do you feel that certifying shows that you have interest in you field. The second is do you not even consider money/gains when you weight a certifications worth? If so I really feel like jerk because time and money/earning potential are the only things I think about when I do a cert lol.

stuh84

knwminus wrote: »

I am just curious about two things. The first is, do you feel that certifying shows that you have interest in you field. The second is do you not even consider money/gains when you weight a certifications worth? If so I really feel like jerk because time and money/earning potential are the only things I think about when I do a cert lol.

I did say that it's not my only reason, to say I wouldn't care about the money would be a lie. The money I get I will spend on certification, but I need to live, and also fund my guitar buying habit again

.

In terms of it showing I have interest in the field? In itself, absolutely not. But by doing it, I know more about the field, and then can convey what I know to others. It's the interest that motivates me probably about 60% of why I do it all, the rest is "I need to pay the bills".

I'll put it pretty simply, I could probably make way more money if I went down the ITIL route or similar, and then went into Service Management, and eventually move up to more and more management positions. I however would hate to be in management, as it does not interest me whatsoever. Networking greatly interests me, so if I can follow a path which gets me more knowledge, more money, and easily bypassing HR departments through their MUST HAVE LETTERS concepts, then I'm happy to continue with it.

As many people have said, the certification itself isn't so much as important as what you gain from it, and I've become a far superior engineer since going through this track. I just have some letters to my name too which has helped net me more money as a bonus

Turgon

knwminus wrote: »

I am just curious about two things. The first is, do you feel that certifying shows that you have interest in you field. The second is do you not even consider money/gains when you weight a certifications worth? If so I really feel like jerk because time and money/earning potential are the only things I think about when I do a cert lol.

It's not enough. There are lots of Cisco certified people out there. Years back when I was hired with a CCNA to my name I came across a horde of CVs kept by my employer. These were either people who had been interviewed for a job and didnt make the cut or who had simply applied for a role and were passed over. There were a good few that had Cisco certs of one flavour or another. They didn't make it.

Cisco offer a vendor flavour view on configurable protocol implementation. That's about it. All the network vendors do this. Now for some roles that ticks a box, but for others it's a nice to have..now tell me about what you actually know about TCP/IP and how you can make our software products play more nicely together.

We had a guy with a PhD who used snoop and tcpdump and some other things to inspect what was happening when banks complained things were not working too well with transactions with our software products. That's pretty much what he did on the Solaris platform as well as issue updates to the secure communication server he designed and developed. On top of his desk circa 2002 was a copy of TCP Intercept printed off the Cisco website..something many engineers dont get to until a cert track actually points them in that direction. That was eight years ago and I still havent met many network engineers comfortable about using snoop and analysing the findings.

The certs have value certainly, but they should be an entry point to understanding how the RFC standards stuff is actually used to deliver services, the reason why the network is there in the first place. Remember Cisco is a platform designed for transport. That's about it really. But to really add value you want to understand how to help things that depend on that platform to run better. You earn more money that way too. A bank doesn't care about how many Cisco certs they have. They do care about resiliency and uber reduced latency for transactions, better throughput, fewer packet drops, reduced RTT and security.

Bl8ckr0uter

I know it isn't going to be enough to get the cert. Believe me to get to the level that I want to go to, knowing Cisco isn't going to be enough. I really want to know networking and *nix to the packet/bit level. I want UNDERSTANDING more so than certifications. I'd really like to take a shot at the Sun stuff just so I can gain more understanding. I have looked at the big admin site and it peaked my interest. In the mean time, I know I will need to get certs so I can get more jobs/chances to gain more understanding.

Turgon

knwminus wrote: »

I know it isn't going to be enough to get the cert. Believe me to get to the level that I want to go to, knowing Cisco isn't going to be enough. I really want to know networking and *nix to the packet/bit level. I want UNDERSTANDING more so than certifications. I'd really like to take a shot at the Sun stuff just so I can gain more understanding. In the mean time, I know I will need to get certs so I can get more jobs/chances to gain more understanding.

You're still thinking about platforms and their vendor tracks. This is worthy but just a flavour of ice cream. Learn vanilla first!

I see very few posts about even TCP handshaking on the boards never mind windowing or sequencing unless it pops up as a cursory thing in someone's studies.

These are fundamentals that if you master lead to some very good jobs. You are looking at reading Stallings, Stevens, Giles, Sommerville to name but a few to learn these things well. Cisco is still off base on layer 4 training in my opinion and has been for years even though they have offered content switching for sometime. How many network engineers have heard of multiplex sockets or really understand sticky IP? I suppose it's understandable because they push packets.

But I would not be surprised to see a multiple CC*P tank even a basic test on layer 4 mechanics which actually when the software guys pull the network specialists in is usually what they are looking for help with.

Cisco is great, but read the RFCs.

earweed

Turgon keeps mentionning the RFC's. Sad to say but in most cert tracks those are the things that are just barely mentioned as in "in accordance with RFC ####" Most people, myself included, never bother to read what most of these RFC's actually say. I've read one or two (eyes glaze over) hoping not to have to remember the RFC number.
Are there any cert tracks which actually require you to have real knowledge of the RFC's?

stuh84

earweed wrote: »

Turgon keeps mentionning the RFC's. Sad to say but in most cert tracks those are the things that are just barely mentioned as in "in accordance with RFC ####" Most people, myself included, never bother to read what most of these RFC's actually say. I've read one or two (eyes glaze over) hoping not to have to remember the RFC number.
Are there any cert tracks which actually require you to have real knowledge of the RFC's?

As far as networking goes, I don't think I've heard of a vendor neutral or standards based qualification which would do that kind of thing.

However, they are incredibly useful, I have them in my RSS feed so any new one coming in can be quickly perused over.

Most of the time when I refer to them, it's to look at new technology, or something which doesn't have a properly documented way of doing things yet. This is happening a lot with IPv6, as RFCs are there, but some of the more useful, and I'd say most needed features, only exist in RFCs currently.

Turgon

earweed wrote: »

Turgon keeps mentionning the RFC's. Sad to say but in most cert tracks those are the things that are just barely mentioned as in "in accordance with RFC ####" Most people, myself included, never bother to read what most of these RFC's actually say. I've read one or two (eyes glaze over) hoping not to have to remember the RFC number.
Are there any cert tracks which actually require you to have real knowledge of the RFC's?

None. Absolutley none. But you should at least try to engage with some of them. Historically Cisco Press books referenced them well. Less so today. As difficult as some of them are to follow or understand your studies will have a lot more context if you put some time in with them. It's how networking standards evolve and emerge and it was a main stay read for yester year CCIE's. Everything else is command line vendor implementation!

Sepiraph

Turgon wrote: »

We had a guy with a PhD who used snoop and tcpdump and some other things to inspect what was happening when banks complained things were not working too well with transactions with our software products. That's pretty much what he did on the Solaris platform as well as issue updates to the secure communication server he designed and developed. On top of his desk circa 2002 was a copy of TCP Intercept printed off the Cisco website..something many engineers dont get to until a cert track actually points them in that direction. That was eight years ago and I still havent met many network engineers comfortable about using snoop and analysing the findings.

Let me guess, the ones who are comfortable are linux guys?

varelg

Turgon wrote: »

... A bank doesn't care about how many Cisco certs they have. They do care about resiliency and uber reduced latency for transactions, better throughput, fewer packet drops, reduced RTT and security.

Excellent point! Very simple reason why your company is in the business and not the other guys. And in general, what business are we all in. In delivering solutions.
Along the kwminus line, it is very important to choose your niche at the beggining and pursue it as you progress in your skills. What will motivate you to expand your skills, part is curiosity, part money but why you'll be wanted around is that you are able to solve problems.

Michael.J.Palmer

Personally I don't think it's a good idea to just go after certification you can set your eyes on. Companies are looking for more stability at the top of the ladder (so domain admins/enterprise admins for example). So it's a better idea to get certs that lead to a career path/specialty and just stick with that then get a bunch of random certificates just because you can.

My instructor is a guy who owns a consulting firm that's done work for the government and what not. Well, he said he'd always hire a guy who specialized in something (so meaning maybe no more than 8 certs total) over a guy who had 12+ certifications just because he'd rather have a guy who knew a lot about one thing then a guy who knew just a little about a lot of things. Get the meaning?

eMeS

knwminus wrote: »

If so I really feel like jerk because time and money/earning potential are the only things I think about when I do a cert lol.

Everyone should embrace whatever their motivations are. For me, pretty much every decision I make business-wise has to meet some level of potential ROI in terms of money or it doesn't interest me.

I don't work because of some intrinsic motivation, because it's fun, or because I think I'm saving the world. I strongly feel that that line is pure BS.

For example, early last year I found out that tons of experience plus the highest level ITIL cert out there wasn't enough because of accredited training changes, and that to teach any of the new ITIL v3 Intermediate classes I had to earn the individual cert for each class. Because of a discount I get on those exams, the total cost for all 9 exams came out to around $1800. Without the discount it would have been double that. Either amount is nothing to sneeze at...

I put some more coins in the ITIL slot machine because the payoff is still there. Within 1 month of completing the 1st of those intermediate certs, I had already earned back the initial outlay of $1800 plus about an order of magnitude more than that.

The thing was, I knew that the ROI was there, so it was an easy decision. I wouldn't say to stop chasing certs; I would say be more selective in the certs that you chase.

Another recent example is something called prISM. prISM is a "meta-cert" where the organization validates all of your other certs, credentials and experience and deems you at some level of prISM. The problem is that there is a fairly significant annual fee, and absolutely zero demand for it outside of pure ITSM circles. My decision is to not pursue this; if I ever do need it then I will worry about it then, but I suspect it will be a non-issue. For the people that came up with this to think that the problem with ITSM is a broken certification scheme, and that the solution is yet another certification scheme, well let's just say it must be nice, warm and cozy in their world.

One thing that I can tell all of you as you progress in your career is that ability to sell something and achieve results is often prized over a nice set of credentials. I know that sounds weird on a site that is mostly focused on people chasing credentials, but it is a reality that I've seen. When I first went into business for myself I thought that it would be my credentials that most interested customers. It's not. What I've found over the years is that what makes a sale happen is my ability to figure out the customer's needs and give them some reasonable potential solution. Additionally, customers seem to be much more interested in seeing samples of prior work and an indication of results vs. a list of credentials. In fact, the last several customers I've brought on asked for no proof or even an indication of any credentials, but were very interested in seeing samples of prior work that was similar to the work proposed for them.

Back to the original topic, basically figure out whatever your personal ROI calculation looks like and do the things that support that...

MS

Bl8ckr0uter

eMes:

You know when I made this thread I actually had something you in mind. Something to the tune of you have a limited amount of time you want to work and you want to get paid. I feel the exact same way.

Yesterday I was talking to logicbomb and he brought up a particular cert for a company call arcsight. I started looking at the sheer amount of certifications out there and it was mind boggling. Some of the people here have way, way more certs than I desire to get. It is just crazy. The 4 certs I have acquired have gotten me about 50K. Hopefully my the Sec+, CCDA, LPIC-1, ITILv3 Foundations, A.A.S CCXP and some good experience can get me at least 15-20k more.

eMeS

knwminus wrote: »

You know when I made this thread I actually had something you in mind. Something to the tune of you have a limited amount of time you want to work and you want to get paid. I feel the exact same way.

Yep, we all have a limited amount of time that we're willing/able to work...ideally you want to get paid as much as possible for whatever that amount of time is.

knwminus wrote: »

Yesterday I was talking to logicbomb and he brought up a particular cert for a company call arcsight. I started looking at the sheer amount of certifications out there and it was mind boggling.

I'd say blindly listing them on a resume without targeting to whatever the company wants is a bit risky. This is really why things like LinkedIn bother me a bit. I have to list everything out there as a sort of perpetual advertisement that's not really targeted. Seems at times more like a laundry list than anything else.

MS

Ahriakin

Regardless of your plans you'll simply hit a point where you know it's all diminishing returns, both personally and professionally. I went hell for leather for about 4 years, from Sec+ through MCSE to CCIE, and then stopped completely for a year. I didn't plan to stop after the CCIE I just had a look around when I did and figured it was time to take a breather. Also the thoughts of recertifying makes me tired just thinking about it so as was mentioned earlier I'm mostly now in Maintain mode (well, after going for the R&S IE, that's mainly for my own benefit as I want to fill in the gaps).
The other thing to consider here too is that as you increase your certs/knowledge and work your way up the career path each job will likely be much more demanding than the last. Instead of having time to work on new paths you will be spending much more time, effort and poor wee brain cells learning what you need to keep up with work. Case in point is that I know 100% I am a much better security engineer now than I was when I passed the lab, yet if I was to sit it again right now I'd fail. My overall knowledge has increased leaps and bounds, but my cert level knowledge has decreased. I spend a lot of time just trying to research new appliances and services that are not even in cert track orbit.

NetworkingStudent

knwminus wrote: »

With the possibility of getting neg'd I wanted to hear everyone's opinion on this.

I am 22 years old (turning 23 this year) and I have come to the conclusion that I do not plan to chase certs forever. I only want to earn a few, important, career impacting certs and maintain those rather than go after every single cert that comes out of the wood works. I think it is crazy. Now don't get me wrong, I have nothing against learning, I am just speaking about certifying. It is expensive and time consuming and unless I can get an employer to pay for them, it seems to be a very real expense. I know I don't have that many and I don't plan to stop with my current amount, I was just wondering if others have had this thought .

Edit: I am not trying to downplay the importance of certification in our careers or the value that some certs have or even the enjoyment some get out of the certification process.

I’m not sure when I will quit, I guess it depends on the jobs I want to apply for. My main goal is to apply, attend WGU, and earn certs that are related to the WGU degree I want to obtain. This will happen after I finish my current AAS degree at my current college.
I have scheduled the A+ 702 for June
I want to do the network+ in August
And Security+ in October
I was just applying for a Microsoft Database Volunteer position, and I was declined. The guy interviewing me asked me about what my goals were, and I told him I wanted to be a system admin. I mentioned how I wanted to get the A+, network+ and Security+..before they expire..
He stated he didn’t have any certs, and he is an admin. Although, he said certs are what get you in the door, but it’s what you learn everyday that is what will help you get the job.
Somewhere down the road I would like to get a Cisco cert, because they sound fun to study for….yes call me crazy…
I’m not sure what certs I want to take beyond The comptia +’s A+ NET+ SEC+….
I just know for sure that I don’t want to be on a help desk job forever.

chrisone

I agree with you and many posters on this thread, regarding stopping the cert chasing at some point and just maintaining your skills. I myself always thought I would need to stop and just enjoy and benefit off my certs at some point in life. I am 29 and that point is coming soon. After working several years in the Networking field and 10+ years in the IT industry i realized in order for me to be in a safe zone of having a competitive set of network engineering skills a CCNP alone will not suffice. I have experience in ASA firewall building and maintaining / troubleshooting as well as wireless technology skills too, but it would be nice to have the certs to go along with those skills right? or am i wrong? hehehe

CCNP is a great certification and can open vast amount of doors for you, it is also a better career than many other hard labor or desk jobs out there. Plus you will probably get paid better than most people. However this wont last long, employers and enterprise networks need more than just routing and switching. This is the reason why I am pursuing my CCDA/CCDP this year and CCSP next year. I am also looking towards the end of this year 2010 at obtaining my CCNA security.

There is just no way of getting around being a network admin , network tech, or network engineer and not having to work with security. Point in case at a minimum for a solid network engineer you should have experience in routing/switching/security/design. All the other technologies such as wireless and VOIP are great and are an added bonus to ones skill set but in the end your wireless or VOIP systems wont even work on a network you cant even route properly let alone secure the darn thing.

To be honest as i am nearing the end of my CCDA cert guide it has ended with security and reading those security chapters has given me a new found interest in pursuing some security certs and since i am a cisco guy i will be doing the CCSP